Ship to Air refueling
 

Just watched a report about the Danish Navy chasing pirates somewhere off the coast of Africa. They were using a Lynx helicopter which at some stage had to be refueled.
But instead of landing on the deck of the frigate they were hovering next to the deck and did an in flight Ship-to-Air-Refueling.
What's:confused: the use of such manoeuver?

This is called HIFR.

Often done, for example, if the ship landing deck can not carry the weight of the helicopter or for some reason the ships landing deck is not operational for landings or if the roll/pitch is beyond limits for landing although the Danish Navy will land in some extreme sea state. HIFR is also done from ships with no landing deck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC2XIGMI2kM

Does one care how one gets fuel when you are over the Ocean with lots of air in the fuel tank?

If such a capability exists on every Ship in the Area of Operation then the flexibility of the Aircraft is enhanced as it does not have to have a Landing Deck to alight upon to fuel.

It's amazing how they're able to maintain helicopters which are exposed to all that salt water spray.

Thanks for the replies. Now it makes sense.

I couldn`t think of a rough sea state and/or no place to land as in the tv report it was calm with blue skies and a nice and cleaned up helideck. Furthermore the commantator was babbling something about "saving time".

Sometimes it is done for practice even though the deck is suitable for the helo - currency for the ship's crew as well as the aircrew.

The ship may have been steaming in the wrong direction and have put the deck out of SHOL (ship operating limits) but I suspect training is the correct answer. HIFR is (helicopter in flight refuelling.

Video can be found here
You might want to wind forward to 37:20 min

Hi,
they explained it actual in the video....

They said SOP requires engine shut down, when landing on the ship for refueling.

Because a pirate attack on a nearby merchant ship was ongoing, they choose the option of inflight refueling (pressure refueling) - which only lasted about two minutes to get enough gojuice to fly the 10 miles to the scene of action, covering the asses of the soldiers on the speedboots on their way.

There is no reason to go for engine shutdown = rotor shutdown for on board refuel, a rotors running refuel is no more hazardous than HIFR. There are more risks involved (dragging the hose and crew over the side for example) in HIFR.
At least when the aircraft is lashed to the deck it can't go anywhere.

Only had to HIFR once in anger in a Sea King, - when the boss (Pilot) of the Sqn I was flying with decided that he knew better than the Observer on the radar and took us to the wrong ship using ESM that had a flight deck too small for the mighty Sea King to land on. Only drama was that we didn't then have enough fuel to get either back to 'mum' or to the correct ship that we could have landed on. Luckily in this case the ship (type 42 I think) had good fuel pumps. Sometimes you had to hover below the level of the flight deck as the ships pumps wouldn't pump up hill faster than you were burning it! When the flight deck height was 15 feet, made for some fun hovering in rough weather.

OLDPINGER
 

My brush with HIFR came during a frigate's workup off Portland Bill. The ship's task was to hook me up (Wessex3) and demonstrate that it could then resume evasive manoeuvres in a hostile submarine environment. For twenty minutes I was dragged around like a dog on the end of a lead with all manner of wind directions until we completed the exercise and were able to disconnect and head for home for a stiff G & T and bacon bun.

For the record I think Chris Quarrie (SPLOT 706) managed to put a Sea King down on a Wasp equipped frigate by setting the tail wheel on the one metre wide path that led aft between the mortars. I believe the mission was a casevac.

G. :ok:

My thought. Saving time can't be an arguement to justify HIFR under those conditions described in that report.

I guess the TV Crew just wanted it to look a little bit more dramatic and used footage of an exercise which took place some other time.

Spoken like a land-based pilot.

That all depends on things like the refueling point(s) on the aircraft and sea state.

If one assumes that a HIFR-capable aircraft is also fitted with a single-point pressure fitting for ground refueling, that renders the first point moot, so we'll dispense with that.

However, if the aircraft is not HIFR-capable and the ship is rolling beyond a certain point and / or needs to maneuver during the fueling, rotors running on deck is WAY more hazardous than a shutdown and takes longer than HIFR. Also, most naval regulations require the use of a single point pressure fitting for hot refueling, at least it used to be that way in NATO. Training is important for HIFR, as anywhere up to 30m of hose is suspended from the aircraft's winch hook and oscillating between the ship and the aircraft, and that hose is full of nice heavy fuel.

At least in the U.S. of A., Army aircraft refueling systems are designed for 15 psig (about 1 BAR) and those of Naval aircraft are designed for 55 psig. So, sometimes a shutdown simply has to happen.

The AAC trialled HIFR with a Lynx at Otterburn Ranges a few years back, or did they just forget to disconnect the bowser?

Um lifting - so your point was??????

We are talking specifically about HIFR - is there any other way of doing it other than with a single point pressure fitting????

I didn't qualify my statement about refuelling on the deck by considering non-HIFR aircraft since it simply wan't relevant.

The reasons for HIFR you gentlemen who fly or flew the aircraft know as well as me, suffice to say I have seen a CVS with harriers at alert, both spots behind the island blacked and the graveyard full of bombs. Although in reality the usual reasons are long distance sorties (casevac etc) to a vessel with fuel but no deck, or to allow ship manoeuvring as described by Geoffers.
I supervised many HIFR evolutions from many ships and can clear up a couple of procedural points. The refuel hose is connected to the HIFR hose and this is hard connected to the deck (ring bolt etc) using a shackle. The HIFR hose is then flaked out on the deck in such a way that at no time will your team have to step over the hose or get “inside” (sea side) of the assembly. (Don’t stand inside a bight or coil)
The HIFR hose is marked such that the team and the aircrew can see how much hose is deployed over the side; the aim is to have as little as possible deployed as a hose full of fuel is heavy. The hose should ideally describe an upward curve to the aircraft as mentioned earlier by someone else, so the hose is constantly adjusted, taking fuel down below deck level only to pump it up again is not efficient.
Should the aircraft or ship pull away the hose has a break point that self seals, this leaves the aircraft with a section of hose hanging from the “heave ho” point on the winch which can be unhooked and lowered to the deck crew. The deck crew will have pulled in the disconnected hose, cleaned and checked it; they then reconnect to the business end, “con check” it and run a quick amount into the ship to ensure no possible contamination.
Then back to business.
If at any time the hose pulls violently the team are (well) trained to drop it, so the risk of pulling someone over the side should be minimal and de-rigging can literally be done in seconds, the slowest part being the hose retrieve from the aircraft, the rest is dropped into the cat walk or stowage and sorted later.

Cheers now

Other than this statement of yours being completely, utterly, verifiably, and demonstrably false, and that numerous aircraft are fitted with more than just one pressure refueling fitting, I guess I didn't have one.

Um lifting - you've obviously got your angry head on - let's hope you chill in 2016 - Happy New Year.

Was part of an ongoing trial, I believe. :E

Judge Tudor Owen
Sea King Mk 7 SKASaC 'Baggers' of 849 NAS refuelling from HMS OCEAN, May 2015



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http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/119578447.jpg

Geoff - I think that was 814 Squadron from HMS Hermes evacuating British residents from Cyprus. They thought that winching down some of the little old ladies from a great height might have caused more than just a touch of the vapours. I think there was a disabled person or two amongst them as well. :D

HIFR Slideshow by 22sarboy | Photobucket

It ain't rocket science, even crabs can do deck landings, HIFR and on-deck rotors running refuel (very safely):ok:

F L,

Nice phots,
The last one is the money shot though, as you can see the cab is a little too far out which has caused the team to (correctly) release the hose to prevent the possibility of being pulled to the edge. they are also correctly positioned outside the bend in the hose should the shackle part and allow the hose to pull. The issue I would have dealt with straight away was the positioning of the aircraft relative to the actual refuel point. If the hose does break free due to a failure in the break away point to release and the shackle breaking, the guy in the cat walk will get the benefit of a fuel nozzle in the head. I would have asked for 1 spot HIFR supplied from 2 spot, which would have put the guy in the cat walk in a safe position.
p.s. "B" flight ruled

Cheers now

Crab:

Yes, I'm sure they can these days but only after doing the appropriate courses and passing lots of written tests. Also they'd need to do lots of planning and a risk assessment - just in case. ;)

Seriously though, most of the crabs we had on exchange were sorry to go back to the RAF at the end of their tours as they had grown to love using their own initiative and thinking for themselves. :(

Just kidding crab - even the senior service wouldn't do it without a briefing! :ok:

Strangely - none of the RN exchange chaps we had on SAR actually went back to the Senior Service once they had seen the light;):ok:

Most of the RN QHI students I had were doing the QHI course to avoid going to sea;):ok:

We used to do deck landings (to all grey funnel liners) as RAFSAR aircraft on an ad hoc basis and just treat them like any other SAR situation - it was the RN who got all rule-bound and officious so I was sent to be standardised by RN Standards so I could cascade the training down through the RAFSAR Force.

crab@,

You sometimes seem to have an each-way bet when extolling the virtues of RAFSAR against all other players. It seems that DLs and HIFR are easy-peasy to a RAFSAR player, yet SAR is the singular domain of RAFSAR and all other pretenders can't possibly meet your standards.

Then the RN (not unexpectedly) require long term players in their sandpit comply with deck landing standards and you post that they are 'rule-bound and officious' by requiring you to be checked and approved to check your own guys.

Hmmmm...... :=

Cyprus 1973
 

FD2 - if my memory is not totally shot you are correct about the Seaking from 814 landing on the frigate in July/Aug 73.

I seem to recall the reason being slightly different though.

The Turks had one of their ex USN Gearing class destroyers sunk following a bombing attack by a F4. This was to the South East of Akrotiri and we were initially tasked to search for survivors. The politicians then countermanded this instruction and we sailed full speed for Kyrenia to evacuate civilians caught up in the conflict who were offloaded in Akrotiri about 5 days later.

We discovered the destroyer crew were still floating around in very inadequate rafts and floats and in spite of the PC brigade insisting that we would be contravening our neutrality, the Skipper of Hermes decided to intervene regardless.

The survivors remaining were in a pretty dreadful state and were not allowed to be returned to Hermes but were to be dropped off well clear of Cyprus on one of our frigates (Hermione rings a distant bell) the survivors were in no state to be winched due to horrific salt water sores and sunburn and the Pilot elected to attempt a landing after all the antennae and obstructions had been removed from the frigate stern.

The survivors were later transferred by the frigate Wasp to a Turkish ship the next day - took about 30 flights I recall.

We received a plaque from the frigate saying " Hermione - your new Mother"

Sad twist to the tale was that the Air Force F4 who sank the Frigate was also Turkish - can't trust Crabs of any Nation once they get out of sight of land it appears!

Can't remember who the Seaking Crew were but this may jog the odd memory!

Trog

Trog:

Many thanks - that really rings bells in the memory now - I think it was reported in 'Flight Deck'. I also think the pilot was M.P.C. (Splot at the time?)

Crab:

Did you ever actually have any RN exchange pilots in the RAF SAR units or are you just making this stuff up as you go along? ;)

Anyway, I think the world is now your oyster - a man of your talents could set up or sort out any number of poorly trained rescue organisations - I think there must be a job 'down under' just crying out for a man with your expertise!! :D :ok:

Just joking. :)

A quick question please:

Clearly, the winch is used to raise and lower the hose when it's empty, but, is it the load bearing point when the fuel is being pumped or is the weight shifted to another hard-point during the actual refuelling process - It just seems to me that it's a big load to hang from your winch and has the potential to wreck it if something goes wrong.

Cheers!
OH

Ps: Didn't Bristow / HMCG occasionally use and train for HIFR for their S-61s from small decks and non-deck vessels to get them further out into the Atlantic (or have I just invented that)?

Cyprus
 

FD2 - also seem to remember it was MPC with AE as the co- pilot.

OH- seem to remember we had a hard point on the winch frame which took the load off the cable during refuelling.

Also seem to remember but may be wrong that the pressure refuelling coupling on normal S61's wasn't in a good location for HIFR.

We had another incident in Tiger (826 around 1977) when a Wasp crashed on our deck. They didn't want to shove it over the side since damage was really only collapsed gear.

We had a couple of very low time pilots airborne at the time who winched me up to take P1 seat. I did a HIFR and also winched up a SACRU and a couple of engineers and buggered off 100 miles plus to the nearest available deck on an RFA where we fitted the SACRU then returned to Tiger to sling the damaged Wasp back to the same RFA.

Interesting times!

Trog

John Eacott - we previously took our lead from RN SAR as far as accepting that on SAR shout, a DL qual wasn't required. They were also roped into full DL quals when the boat drivers updated Br766d (although more of their pilots had been DL qualified in other roles/types).

However, I know they struggled to keep all their SAR crews at Culdrose and Prstwick DL qualified - it was an extra and unwelcome training burden.

DLs within the RN SHOLs for Sea King, day or night are, as you know, not that tricky whilst other types/ Navies may have less rigid limits (Canadians with bear trap for example) so it is hardly an area of superiority for RAF SAR.

OH - as trog says the heave-ho hoist bracket is used to support the hose during refuelling utilising the HIFR slip - a connection that can be quick-released to drop the hose in emergency.

FD - 4 to my immediate memory, and one of them stayed on for an extra 4 years in RAF SAR.

OH,
Trog is correct, managed to find a picture showing the elongated hole in the strong plate behind the hook on the Seaking hoist at the address below.
The Crewman attaches a HIFR sling to this point and the hard lift point on the hose, then disconnects the hoist from the hose.
The HIFR sling is a manually operated quick release item, should all else fail and the hose won't break away in an emergency.

Sea King Walk Around Photo Index Page

Cheers now

We learned, in the USN, that fresh water wash and engine wash was a good first step after each such sortie.




(We also had daily, weekly, and monthly corrosion inspections and various treatment and touch up procedures ... that salt water is a pain to deal with).

Oh my, how it must have hurt to type that :p

As my good friend Trog noted, the S61 would not be an easy aircraft to fuel in the hover as the fuelling port is on the left side by the main gear and the hoist is on the other side of the aircraft - I'm sure that someone might have tried it though!

Bristow did trial this on the SA330J Puma for a potential contract in Australia. The trial was successful, although the door could only be opened 16 inches as I recall, due to the fuel manifold and adaptor for the pressure fuel nozzle. The bigger challenge would be getting any regulatory authority to approve it for commercial operations with pax onboard! :8

Like so many great ideas originating there, this one vanished without trace. I do actually have some pictures somewhere of this installation and test.

No, since we had to teach them everything else - FLIR, NVG, double strop lifts etc etc:ok::E

????

• NVG first used in the Falklands by the RN in 1982.
• Double strop lifts around since I was training, 1969, and certainly raised at INTSAR in 1972 when I was on the staff for the event. Not by the RAF, I hasten to add, but by the Noggie's who lost a survivor on the winch and another because he was too large to fit any of the standard strops in use back then.
• Can't speak for FLIR, we were battling to get it in VicPol Air Wing in 1982 when the NSCA (Vic) got the first operational civil unit in Australia. What's the RAF/RN history there?

We were supposed to be on the same side when I was playing on Aunty Betty's Grey Funnel liners.

Naval aircraft are (usually) built to a higher standard to resist corrosion; often those standards have been learned the hard way through experience. Early attempts to save weight involved the use of skinning with a magnesium based alloy, but when you could hear the magnesium crackling as it dissolved after a ditching, rendering the salvaged aircraft into scrap, that was one idea soon consigned to Bin 13!

Another true story: a chinless wonder in the Treasury took exception to the vast amount spent on WD40 by the RN, and identified the cost of gallons that were sprayed into jet engines as they spooled down on the flight deck at sea.

Great savings were made, until the overhaul failure rate of Buccaneer Spey engines quadrupled to something like 100 times the savings made on WD40. Shut down sprays were soon reintroduced :rolleyes: