Then clearly you place false reliance on "people". Considering wrong deck landing have been occurring regularly for as long as offshore oil support has been in business, just what will it take to make you realise this?

It is this sort of attitude that prevents safety moving up to the next level. Shame on you

Dont know what Diginagain is on about regarding Aldis lamps. Been occupying Radio Rooms for a good few years now and never heard of them being allocated for helideck use. Just asked our HLO who muttered something about it not being 1944 and wandered out. I was recently on a new build and they did have "wave off" lights that could be triggered manually for whatever reason, they also activate automatically whenever a platform alarm kicks in. Never seen an Aldis lamp on my travels though.

People make errors, it happens. I have pulled my fair share of facepalm moments out here. Even saw a Phantom land at the wrong airfield before, both runways orientated 09/27 and just a few miles apart. These days crews and engineers at offshore helicopter companies must feel like they operate under a huge magnifying glass, it cant be easy. Personally, as long as the crew get me back to Aberdeen on the day I go off I am happy. If they want to take me somewhere else for a bit and cut my time at work I am all for it. Tenerife would be nice.

I'll bet the crew were annoyed though, missing out on all that food I bet they ordered .. ;)

HC - as a result of recent events we've seen that pilots are as fallible, and as frangible, as the rest of us.

Recent events? So the aviation events of the previous 90 years have passed you by?

Offshore Addict - I'm surprised. Nothing as per SOLAS Ch.V

Nothing as small or antiquated as an Aldis-type lamp. Full intensity dual mode green/red deck lighting, to replace/add to the green perimeter lights.

Normal setting is red, when the HLO is happy that his deck is completely ready, he switches them to green.

Helicopter: "request deck availability"

HLO: "Deck available, lights green"

Helicopter: "check lights, we see red"

HLO: "definitely green"

Helicopter: "where are we then?"

Etc etc

Can't be that difficult.

rc,

My response was general in nature: it just happened to appear about the same time as, and followed your, post. Nothing aimed at you personally ;)

obnox,

Simple idea, isn't it? Maybe too simple for the Oil and Gas Industry :E All this discussion along with a proper peer-reviewed investigation into what actually happened may result in a solution that could put the ball firmly back into the hands of management to instigate that solution.

Work has been done over a projected period on something which is not quite as easy to provide as first imagined. The result of the work was published as a CAA paper in 2003 updated in 2008:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2008_01.pdf

Jim

Not really the same thing though Jim. Or at least, it has fallen victim to being run by ideologists, vs designers who understand that everything (that works in practice) is a compromise. The need to ward of helicopters from long range due to a gas leak etc is a different requirement from a device to stop wrong deck landings.

What is in fact required is, for example, a means of turning the otherwise excellent CAA-promoted green deck circle lighting, to red until such time as the HLO gives deck clearance.

By trying to make this project all things to all people - always an impossible task and the death knell of any project - and looking for that elusive perfect solution, the net result is a stalling of the project and no actual implementation of a reasonably effective solution.

Well HC, as I remember, that was exactly what it was for:

I understand what you are saying though but had not thought (nor had others) of your unique solution. Would that work by Day?

Jim

Sorry guys, but I put the blame firmly on the oil companies. We operate to many platforms off Denmark with next to no visible way of identifying the deck until very short finals due to poor markings, this situation has to be improved as we operate nightly in the winter a morning and evening shuttle service. Familiarity of the field is helpfull, but some of the working rigs as opposed to jack ups are virtually hidden underneath the production modules and many of the legs are not even lit :eek:
I am not for one minute defending a crew that doesn't follow their SOP's regarding indenting the platform before landing during the daytime, but come on, there has to be a better and safer solution especially at night in a congested field.
In their defence, the jack ups generally have a huge rig name on there Derrick, which is hard to miss :D
Anyone got anything constructive to add ???

A number of years ago in the Dutch sector an oil company put reflective signs on the side of the platforms. The signs were floodlit and along with the landing light day or night they were perfectly visible. Of course the signs are also for marine use and many have block numbers instead of the rig/platform name which did not help!

That was what it was for initially, but the scope was widened to include preventing helis from landing eg when there was a gas leak. As a result of trying to make the scope cover all eventualities, the result was that nothing happened.

However I will have to concede your point about the green circle not working in broad daylight, that is probably the case. But surely a bright omnidirectional light visible in daylight, or other clear visual indicator visible on short finals, is not that difficult to achieve? That it hasn't been achieved strongly suggests that, amongst other things, it is actually not that important.

It would be interesting to analyse all wrong deck landings, but I suspect that nearly all will have occurred following a visual approach. The increased levels of checks occuring during an ARA makes a wrong deck landing from an instrument approach seem very unlikely. With that in mind, a lot of the complexity of the CAA paper can be dispensed with. Just day and night. No need to be able to see it at 900m in a vis of 1400m etc, just before committal point in VMC would be fine. Too much gold plating!

WDL
 

As a WDL on an offshore installation obviously is considered as a condition which may be hazardous, I am very much in favour of the status lights as described in CAP 437:

Ch 2.3.5 : NOTE: The installation of ‘Status Lights’ systems (see Chapter 4, paragraph 3.6) is not considered to be a solution to all potential flight safety issues arising from hydrocarbon gas emissions; these lights are only a visual warning that the helideck is in an unsafe condition for helicopter operations.

Ch 4.3.6: A visual warning system should be installed if a condition can exist on an installation which may be hazardous for the helicopter or its occupants. The system (Status Lights) should be a flashing red light (or lights), visible to the pilot from any direction of approach and on any landing heading. The aeronautical meaning of a flashing red light is either “do not land, aerodrome not available for landing” or “move clear of landing area”. The system should be automatically initiated at the appropriate hazard level (e.g. impending gas release) as well as being capable of manual activation by the HLO. It should be visible at a range in excess of the distance at which the helicopter may be endangered or may be commencing a visual approach. CAA Paper 2008/01 provides a specification for a status light system which is summarised below:......etc.
Regards
Dommer

How about a red flag in the middle of the Helideck

http://www.airportlightingcompany.co...es/beacon4.jpg



Just how darned difficult is it to mount a commonly used Heliport Rotating Beacon but using Red Lenses to mark the Landing Decks?

Mount one of anyone of these in a safe location adjacent to the Deck and Bob's Yer Uncle.

Lights on....do not land.

No gold plating needed....just some wire, metal work, and done deal.

Any Pilot that cannot see one of these day or night needs to seek alternative employment.



Airport Lighting Company | Beacons

This helideck is not prepared for helicopter operations!
 

Or this One:
L425EX
Explosion proof ATEX certified LED helideck status (wave-off) light meeting CAP437 requirements. Long life LEDs and light weight design, which incorporates stainless steel mounting facilities and low profile design (<250mm), makes product ideal for easy installation and long maintenance intervals
http://www.orga.nl/images_products/p_img.php?p_id=64
ORGA - Your products for: Offshore oil & gas - Helideck lighting - Status light systems
Best regards
Dommer

Owen Shannon
 

Apologies for a long first post.
With the development of technology, the situational awareness skills requiring heading, time and distance to enable 12 – 15 deck landings on a production run without the use of GPS or equivalent, appear to have gone.Takeoff briefings including, example “right turn to 120 degrees, Market Alpha 9 miles/5 minutes “, etc., don’t appear to be even given a thought.It’s all done for you as one of you suggested. Even long hauls from shore appear to lose the focus required such as may be the case here. And I agree with one post that suggest most WRLs occur in visual conditions.
We’ve all seen the attempts by both operators and companies to prevent WRLs, including flashing lights, name placards, HLO ‘have you in sight’ calls, cockpit procedures, etc.Huge amounts of money have been spent implementing these or reviewing SOPs.
Having several thousand helideck landings under my belt can I appeal to those of you keen to see improvements, for your comments re the following KISS method of helping prevent reoccurrences. It follows the lines of a couple of suggestions - John Eacott (long time John), Obnox, Helicom. It is also based on the principal of noticing something out of the norm on the decks... e.g., a towel, sunbathers (years ago), a straw hat, deck colour, etc.
During a WRL investigation I conducted (and I’ve investigated several) I ‘employed’ a team of highly professional, high time offshore pilots, to advise on my findings and recommendations.From one of these lads came an idea we all thought had merit, so much so in fact that we recommended the subject company take the lead in recommending the same to the industry.
The resultant suggestion was cheap to implement but would need the ‘buy-in’ of the oil companies, and goodness knows, as already suggested, it’s in their interest to do their part in WRL prevention.It appears (from this discussion) that any follow-up done by the subject company has not eventuated.
Every Helideck should have in their ‘crash box’ or some other storage area, a ‘Prohibited Landing’ marker… you know, the 4 meter square signal red panel with the yellow cross that is meant to cover the ‘H’ inside the TD/PM.We all know that these are scarcely used as they are ‘really’ for ‘certain operational or technical reasons an installation may wish to prevent helicopter operations’. Mmmmm, wouldn’t preventing a non-scheduled helicopter from landing meet this criteria?
Leaving these on a helideck when a helicopter is not expected may rot them away pretty quickly in the South East Asian heat and other locations (if a North Sea equivalent wind doesn’t dispatch them sooner) and they could present a hazard should a helicopter have no alternative but to make an emergency landing, as unlikely as that may seem.
Most installations have amongst their equipment, webbed straps of the ratchet tightening variation. With any luck they may have ones that are 3 or 4 (or more) inches wide (wider the better, 4” might be a minimum) and of an appropriate length that two of these could be fastened over the net, over the ‘H’ in the form of a cross in less than a minute. If they are not on board, they retail at less than $200 (size dependent) and could be obtained within a few days. Of course the authorities may wish to standardize such devises and fair enough however if they could keep the KISS principle in mind there is a chance a WRL prevention initiative could move ahead. A simple description of how they should be fastened (diagonally across the bisector of the H might work) and secured to appropriate existing fasteners. The inner ring of helicopter tie down points might be a good place to start. The suggestion is that these be installed by the helideck crew as soon as a helicopter leaves and removed before (just when to be determined) a scheduled helicopter arrives.
Would they be visible before the ‘committed’ or ‘landing’ call is made? Most likely (tests would tell) ... they’d be a lot easier to see than the deck name from certain approach angles. And how many times has the name on a placard been read but not registered as the wrong platform… it has happened. Trials would soon show the appropriate size but anything to begin with would be acceptable, any colour contrasting with the net included (Yellow, or red being initial preferences). The ‘H’ is one of the focal points during such landings and there’s a good chance they would be noticed and understood by our professional colleagues (who understand the meaning of a cross near or on any landing surface).
This could replace the ‘last barrier’ (name of the installation). I'd appreciate you comments.

might even look forward to this month's Oil n Gas meeting - where they have been prevaricating over clear deck markings for how long??????
Maybe the CAA will make a better job of it...........

New red v green deck lighting already being tested or installed in Norway. Simple yes or no that way.:D

This wasn't the case in this situation.

re straps or coloured lights and the like: what about operations to and from NUIs?

Traffic light
 

The NUI babies I visit are all controlled from a mother station - that is why I am in favour of a red "Traffic light" as the last barriere!
regards
Dommer

Straps, lights... last barrier
 

Thanks to those responding to my original post.


The straps are suggested due to the past studies of lights appearing to be 'inappropriate' for a variety of reasons - see excellent 31 Aug posts.


My preference of course would be a means of turning the green lights to red. However, that is a major modification taking years to establish...


... meantime, straps are something that could happen almost immediately if someone was bold enough to act on a practical, cost effective, pilot supported proposal.

We'd like to hear any comments, especially if there are any flaws to the idea.

Yes, what if the deck is unmanned? (ie a NUI).

Then there wouldn't be anybody available to lay the straps once the helicopter has departed or to remove them just before it arrives.


The NUIs we operate to are all controlled from the shore. However, they already seem to have enough problems controlling and powering their wave off lights that I'm not convinced that an extra set of lights is necessarily the answer.

Could I repeat my question, what happened to the suspended crew?? Back at work yet?? Any punishment??

Straps, Lights... last barrier
 

My experience has noted WRLs seem to be more consistent with landings on occupied installations. NUIs may need something more technical... if any of you can identify why this process would NOT work on occupied installations, we'd enjoy hearing from you.

Well.. anyone who knows......Are they back at work....or suspend "Sine Die"

low pay = unskilled labour
 

To me this whole thing has a much simpler explanation. The less you are willing to pay for labour, the less experience and skill you will get. No one is exempt from making mistakes, we are all human. But with acquired experience and skills, usually, the potential for mistakes reduces significantly. As pilots, acquiring these skills and experience take a long time and a lot of effort and, if you have any pride in yourself, you wouldn't sell yourself cheaply. Apparently Bond offer 85K gross salary as Captain to fly the state of the art machine nowadays and in one of the most complicated operations: North Sea CAT to offshore platforms. The results have not taken long to show.... Luckily no one was hurt this time.

In most cases the amount you are willing to pay for a product or service is directly proportional to the quality you'll receive in return.

85k isn't THAT bad!!

I am guessing that people have been warned off commenting about the outcome of the crew inquiry???

Patience is a virtue
 

No-one has been told to keep quiet. The easiest and most-sensible choice is not to comment until all facts are clear and known. Maybe the crew in question or Snr management might be the best people to provide feedback. There are crew room rumours, but they are just that and quite rightly have remained within the company's walls until the investigation and it's outcomes are completed and published.

Pay scales
 

I think it's worth pointing out that £85k is a pretty good starting salary for a Captain and that the pay continues up into six figures as your seniority and experience increases.

Frankly though, pay has absolutely nothing to do with this and to question the professionalism of crews based on pay is crass and unjustified, or are you suggesting that how good a pilot you are is directly related to how much you get paid?

Bit naughty of me there, I thought the comment might get a response. The reason I keep asking is to find out if the crew are still grounded. I said weeks back, that a grounding plus a quick inquiry, bollocking and return to duty would show positive robust leadership. If it is being dragged out this long...... Well, I retract that statement.

Totally agree on the pay versus ability comment WW

Things are progressing. With regard to detail, that's for the company to deal with right now. I'm sure it will all come out in the open soon.

Our worst enemy
 

Unfortunately, we pilots are our own worst enemy. In today‘s economy I‘ll agree, 85k is a good salary. And if you are someone with around 2 or 3 thousand hours and pretty recent to the NS (i.e. a couple of years) and the right type rating on your licence then yes, 85k is pretty good. Or if you are ex-army or ex-navy with lots of experience in other types of operations (but not the NS) and are looking for a way into the civilian job market then yes, 85k is not bad at all. But if you are someone with 10+ years NS offshore experience, and 2000+ hours on the specific type flown you are doing all your fellow colleague pilots a very small favor by accepting such pay conditions. I also understand that everyone has their own particular life situation and circumstances and one must look after themselves and his/her loved ones. Companies know this and they search for the most desperate pilot in need of a job with the most experience posible.
It is what we all do every day, look for a bargain. But when you get it, be prepared for the worst because you will have a lot more chances of things possibly going wrong.

I have to be a little careful here but let's just say two of our most senior pilots were crewed together recently. Not a complicated flight, only a choice of two landings places 'A' and 'B'. 90 times out of 100, place 'A' is the destination, every so often it's place 'B'. Both pilots are reasonably well paid, widely experienced in a multitude of roles and on a variety of helicopter types. Chatting about the unfortunate crew involved in landing on the wrong deck, the conversation turned to just how easy it would be to land at the wrong place, "you know, so used to going to 'A', put A in the GPS, pilot monitoring is so used to going to A, his cross check doesn't ring an alarm bell - landing site crew don't notice the request for clearance to land was for place 'A' rather than 'B' - there but for the grace....." Anyhow, flight completed without mishap; however, a significant sigh of relief that no landing was made at the wrong place and a very real awareness that they were very capable of embarrassing themselves in the same way.

Moral of the story, none really except to say, if you think pay, position, salary, experience etc has any relationship to the likelyhood of cocking up then you need to go back to CRM module 1 lesson 1 and have a re-think. Humans cock up because we are human, training and sops help but can never eradicate the problem, traffic light system would help too but who out there has never accidentally driven through a red traffic light?!

Cheers

TeeS

Who says that 10 year NS Captains are accepting £85k?

Totally agree B73. I seem to recall mentioning Snr Captains salaries being six figures. It all depends on your experience and qualifications; the more you have, the more pay you can ask for. However, it still doesn't make you a better pilot than your co-pilot, it just means you probably have more experience. And let's not confuse experience with competence.

I had the experience of thinking I had landed on the wrong deck:{ there were 2 Sedco 71x's next to each other. We landed facing out to sea. No sign of HLO. Had we landed on wrong one. I swore I had read name on helideck, it was a sweaty 2ish mins before HLO appeared. It was the right one but it wasn't a pleasent feeling.:{

HF

You are always a better pilot than your co-pilot. I have spent more of my life than I would like to remember as a co-pilot and I have always listened and learned from the Captain of the aircraft.

The co-pilots who think they are better than their captain are the ones who eventually turn out as lousy captains, if they make it.