@Steveo67 Does this view help? I can't see the cathedral much in the way. The tenements would be more of an issue.

Putting the heli to the north/travelling east, looks like they didn't have any chance to aim for anything. It all happened too fast.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3571/lq5v.jpg

Wild Speculation and Political Comments.....do explain what you mean by that comment?

This is a fatal accident....and is no more tragic than any other fatal accident.

Good folks have been lost and the discussion extant is about what could have happened to cause the crash of the helicopter.

Asking if there is any Radar Trace Data is just that....a question.

Such Data could depict such information as Ground Track, Altitude, Height above Ground, Ground Speed, and if there were deviations prior to the aircraft being lost on Radar.

Asking what mission the aircraft was tasked with also would begin to describe what flight profiles might be used.

No politics or wild speculation in those two questions.

Yes. I know the area well, I'm from Glasgow which is why I'm puzzled about what would and wouldn't have been visible. It's much further away than the 250ft he thought but I'm well aware of all the blocking buildings, some pretty high between the viewing position and where it landed.

I'm sure they'll have enough witnesses to confirm all this fairly soon but for now his information seemed to be the most relevant and detailed. It's still astounding it wasn't worse than it was.

I think the comment was probably with reference to certain interviews on British TV.

Sorry Steve, I misquoted. Smart stated 250 metres, not feet. I agree with you, he would only have seen a certain percentage of the aircraft's descent, but what he did see evidently made a big impression on him.
Yes, if this was a rotors not turning descent I'm amazed the toll wasn't higher.
But if it was a rotors-still incident, then it's nothing like the 2 previous EC-135 losses. Meaning I hope they get their finger out while other crews are still flying 135s.
At least I read Eurocopter are sending a delegation and the German AAIB to Scotland.

SHY and SAS
 

Look at threads 101, 135 and 140 Shy I totally agree with your comment!

Conjecture.
 

What about sudden incapacitation of the pilot?

Maybe he was blinded by a laser-pen?


Are either of the observers capable of taking control (assuming there was time)?

Would any autopilot software intervene?

Nomorehelos
Post#101 is innocent enough, and 135 (mine) was in response to a rant that those involved were being bigged up.

You may have missed the inference, but my post was actually about the media going into opinions in the absence of facts, and other sections just misinforming.
Sorry if you have a problem with that, but I'd like the facts, which is why I'm interested and here, rather than there.

I was discussing this with a friend and noted that there was a float kit in some of the previous footage of aircraft. Would the river be the obvious place for a night time auto if that was fitted and armed?

S Jones
 

Why no comment about post 140! It is very clear to me that you have zero experience in this industry and are just some thing from the press leaching what they can off this forum when it comes to high profile incidents, shame on you!

G-CPTN:
News in the local papers this week of a spate of laser incidents on approach to EGPF - you may be onto something there.

In other news, the AAIB can pack up and go home, Westboro Baptist Church have stated unequivocally that it was no accident, God had decided to show Glasgow and Scotland that passing the Equal Marriage Act and our proclivity for a wee swally was displeasing to Him.

Westboro Baptist Church blames Glasgow helicopter crash on gay marriage and drinking | Pride's Purge


edited to direct reply to G-CPTN, not Conjecture , sorry.

Just to put some contrast on that last post, one of the first offers of help last night came from Glasgow Central Mosque (just across the Clyde) who threw their doors open and offered food, drink and a rest area for all involved.

nomorehelos
 

nmh yes, you're right, I have no experience in this industry. I never claimed to. I'm just a member of the public with an interest in aviation. Didn't think that was a hanging offence.
As for post 140, that's someone else's problem.

As for leeching, I have nothing to gain. Just an interest.
Now, if that's okay with you, maybe we can get back on subject?

Getting even sillier.

Lasers of 2in diameter beam are on sale as " targeting devices ", range

undisclosed, no age restriction, for £135 from only one UK distributor.

What happened was fairly instant and plainly final. From an angle below?

l think not.

Only three possibilities for failure.

Aircraft. - tax payers money being spent, unlikely cause.

Pilot. - health problems, unlikely cause.

External. - most likely. Lasers not directly into the eye, unlikely cause.

Atc know.

I've just been googling why my force was using an AS350 a couple of weeks ago (wondering if some forces might revert to older/other models pending AAIB) and I came across the police aviation page.

Curiously, I read one helo was brought down by a defective fuel pump.
Wasn't on a 135, but it's another possible surely, apart from main gearbox failure or "did it run out of fuel" as I saw one person quote on another forum.
Just wondering aloud, as the 135 isn't exactly plagued by mgb stuff like the 335.

Jiminy Christmas folks!

Lasers, ground fire from druggies, God and the Westboro Baptist Church...not a bit of evidence for any of that....none...zip...zero....and you want anyone to grant you any credibility when you post such stuff? :rolleyes:

Anyone know anymore about this from The Guardian ?

Thanks

the main rotor hub appears to be attached.

Oh and SASless, no l don`t.

l really couldn`t give a moments thought.

Judging from the last 10+ years of reading PPrune, it appears some believe all aircraft incidents are caused by evil la@er pointers until proven otherwise.

Safety fears last May
 

BBC News - Scottish air ambulances grounded amid safety fears

Here is the article from May when both Bond a/c were grounded over suspected cracks in the rotor hub.

Was this issue resolved or could it be a possible explanation?

The DT has named some of the victims, including two of the crew...

Glasgow helicopter crash: search for survivors amid the rubble continues - Telegraph

The article seems to suggest that here may still be survivors, and a larger death toll.

Pilot now named as the late David "Dave" Traill, ex-RAF Chinook display pilot and former QHI who saw service in both Gulf Wars.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7460/1...e3c09099_o.jpg

David Traill

BBC news this morning reported that there are now strops on the wreckage and a crane is on site.

Is there a penalty life factor PLF issued against these aircraft to take into account the sustained hovering they do at altitude out of ground affect? I've witnessed these aircraft form other forces hovering for sustained periods and have always thought this must be reducing the life of the MRGB.

Latest tripe from the media:

On the Radio 4 Broadcasting House programme this morning, Matthew Parris (normally a journalist I admire) said scornfully "some of the more right wing press are referring to the EC 135 as a "Eurocopter" - I suppose because it's of European manufacture ".

:ugh:

...or vortex ring (as suggested in an earlier post). :rolleyes:

Zorab - close to home, eh. Stay safe buddy.

Whitehead - interesting point re Winsor.

My observations as one with 2500hrs as a police pilot on 135:
Either:
MGB catastrophic failure causing MRH and TRH to stop turning. (Unlikely - especially in light of the fact that Euro copter (Airbus) haven't issues a cease ops warning).
Double engine failure (possibly due to low fuel / contaminated fuel) and a delay in entering auto.
Catastrophic engine failure taking out the remaining engine (unlikely as debris hasn't yet been recovered away from the scene.

Vortex ring doesn't slow blades down.

[All of the above is based on pictures and eye witness accounts of intact MRH/TR blades and 'popping/banging noises from the helo].

The cabs are flying today - which means the operators have a rough idea what may have caused this.

Firstly can I say I can't fly anything including an RC toy so feel free to shoot my comments down in flames. Autorotation is only good if you have a power out and not much use in a tail rotor failure. I have seen the film of the channel 4 news helicopter crash in Brooklin that lost the tail rotor, and that only took about twenty seconds to crash and that was spinning wildly. I think if that is what happened here the Pilot was just along for the ride and saying he could have picked a better spot to land in nonsense.

TC
 

"which means the operators have a rough idea what may have caused this".

That is very concerning, given your 2500hrs.

500 Fan - there is most definitely a switch for intercom record and most of the time it is in the off position. (so that when the recording is played in court the jury don't have to listen to the crew slagging off the control room inspector).

S.Jones - your local force most definitely was not using a 350 - all police ops require twin engine. BTP/Network Rail operate a 355 in Police colours - was that what you saw??
Exactly what MGB issues is the 355 plagued with??, (or did you mean 225?).

Just want to fly - The head cracks are an ongoing issue. Since the first crack was found, four more have been detected - all by pilots on mandatory pre/post flight inspections. The first head was "flown" by the manufacturer under test and even after several hours, the blade was still securely attached by the remaining points. If this aircraft had shed a blade then the investigation team would be collecting wreckage from a much wider area.

Generally to others not in the know and especially the desparate media hounds - by the time the EC135 runs out of fuel, over the previous 30 minutes there would be 3 amber warning lights, 2 red warning lights with audio, 2 loudly complaining police air observers and number 2 engine will quit about 2 minutes before number 1 - that's the way the system is designed.

You've obviously never been in VRS.....

Fortyodd1, if the 135 had lost a blade it might well be hidden in the Clyde. You'd think the AAIB would have counted how many blades are in the pub by now. However, it would be consistent with some eye witness accounts, but there are so many different versions.....

No reports of the siren or skyshout havng been activated on the way down, so it's probably been really quick from problem to impact.

Winch control

I dont see why that TCs comment would be "very concerning". If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection.
Clearly it is very possible that there is information out there available to them but not yet in the public domain - eg ATC tapes, police radio recordings, maintenence info, etc which may already show a likely cause. Of course, quite rightly we will not get the full information until this has been fully scrutinised by the apppropriate agencies.

Airpolice,
I wasn't suggesting for a second that it had shed a blade, simply responding to Just want to fly's question about the head cracks in a vain attempt to stop the journo's spouting cr@p.
I was one of the first on scene when a Lynx shed a main rotor blade near Mendig in 1994 and know just how big the wreckage field can be. :sad:

I did initially wonder about MRB loss as a potential cause but if that occurred it's likely that the resulting out of balance forces would have ripped off the main gearbox. In the photos it appear to be still with the aircraft.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7435/1...ae16e214_b.jpg




Pretty well can assume the Main Rotor was not turning with any speed or power as evidenced by the lack of damage to the leading edge on this blade.



http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/PYWzPnRVdrQ/maxresdefault.jpg


http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townn...review-620.jpg

"I dont see why that TCs comment would be "very concerning". If the manufacturers or operators thought it likely that there was a catastrophic technical failure, I would have thought it obvious that they would have grounded the fleet pending some sort of inspection."

You have I do believe answered your own question as to your thoughts!

Nice thought that it might be activated as the icing on the cake in a nice, relaxed leisurely emergency autorotation (!) but it's not in any autorotation drills I've seen and from experience of using that equipment, people look around a lot in confusion before looking up, still confused. So there's not really much point and it might be counterproductive.

We were once tasked to a major chemical factory explosion/leak and gas cloud (nitric acid vapour).

Once on scene we were ordered by the control room to use our newly fitted Skyshout equipment to tell people to shut their windows and stay indoors. Of course we quickly noticed that people below were coming outside to hear the strange noises. Then they just looked up at the helicopter.

So we quickly gave up with that idea and moved away.

T.C.?
 

My observations as one with personal experience with hot air balloons, as well as experience reading comments from Thomas Coupling, I have to say that TC has a lot in common with a hot air balloon, and it's not the balloon.

That's not a m/r blade....it's a stabilizer.