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Single engine - IFR capable?
Is anybody making a single engine helicopter today that is IFR certified in the US? I hear several companies used to, but I am having a heck of a time trying to find one being made today. Is it just unrealistic?
Chuck |
Bell (407) and Eurocopter (350BA) managed to get limited approvals ( unlikely that they would be approved today ) . The cost of adding second Hydraulic and second power generation would make it a very expensive option probably brings cost close to that of a light twin. The EC130 does have dual hydraulics so maybe the second alternator would not be too expensive. I am sure if the market was there someone would certify it.
Supplemental Type Certificate Supplemental Type Certificate Supplemental Type Certificate Supplemental Type Certificate |
Presumably the market would have to be international to make it economically viable, especially in these harsh times. There is no UK market, for one example, due to CAA legislation disallowing single engine IFR helicopters.
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The A119 comes closest to being IFR approvable - I believe all it needs is a second source of electricity (and that can be added to the transmission if memory serves me right).
The engine is basically the same one that is used in the Caravan and Pilatus PC-12 - both of which are allowed to fly IFR with paying passengers in N. America. The logic (and proof) was that this engine, under specific maintenance and operating procedures was much safer than the twin piston engine airplanes that were allowed to fly IFR. I wonder when the Europeans will see the light on this. |
There is no UK market, for one example, due to CAA legislation disallowing single engine IFR helicopters. |
A company called Martini were set to do freight operations at night with a caravan along the E coast of UK - despite its good safety record it was still shot down in flames in court (by somebody called Blair) so if the fixed wing isn't allowed, you won't get the helicopter approved!
It isn't discrimination against helicopters, it's blanket discrimination! phil |
Typically the brits are against it regardless of safety !! We are a country that is anti everything ...especially flying !! I heard the other day that an irish dauphin pilot came over to do some work for a company . Apparently he had to do , amongst other things , one hour of hovvering .....:confused: was some daft rule and he had over 8,000 hrs ontype :eek: With an attitude like ours when do YOU think we will certify a single ifr helicopter !!!!!!!!!!
......now of couse when it comes to handing out children to be adopted by gay couples ...well we lead the world in that :D |
I've heard that the CAA are going to insist all IFR ops in the UK have to be three engines, from 2012. Something to do with them requiring funds for re-furbishing the canteen at Gatwick HQ.
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Bell (407) and Eurocopter (350BA) managed to get limited approvals |
Well thats just typical of you yanks .....dont you realise that its REALLY dangerous to fly in cloud in a single resulting in almost certain death ???
Its times like this that i am so thankful that we have our good old CAA to save us from such crazy things :ok: Next thing you will be saying you can land vertically in a small patch of ground like a back yard :eek: you silly crazy people ......come to CAA land , where we are protected from dangerous things ....such as ...flying , which can actually be really dangerous if you dont fill in the right form with the correct colour ink ...in triplicate . THIS is why we are safe ....because due to all the paperwork we actually do VERY little actual "off the ground work " ( OTGW) but a lot of (FISFDBI ) Thank God for the CAA . ok its filling in stupid forms designed by idiots. |
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N reg heli in the UK
I was asked the question and i am not sure ...
Can a single engine IFR helicopter on N-reg fly in the UK privately, no AOC?? With the owner having and FAA licence with IR I think i know the answer but.. I have seen in the past some 206 for sale with IFR kit on?? :ugh: |
I have seen in the past some 206 for sale with IFR kit on?? |
I think i know the answer but.. |
Apparently he had to do , amongst other things , one hour of hovvering |
I have seen in the past some 206 for sale with IFR kit on?? |
Here in Oz we have two IFR B206. Basic 2-axis autopilot, 2 x AI, 2 x HSI, 2 x altimeter, extra battery for power. Does the job for training, obviously needs 2 engines for IFR charter, but we are only using it for Airwork.
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nigelh, doesnt society make us into raving cynics!!! only yesterday they made it illegal for insurance companies to price on gender!! who pays these people!!
back on thread wasnt simon oliphant-hopes all singing all dancing md round the world exploder single ifr??? |
I have been told by a Bell employee that a total of three 407's have IFR approval in the US. |
Stringfellow:
If it was an MD Explorer (as I seem to recall it was) then it would perhaps have been single PILOT IFR, not single ENGINE IFR. |
But his 500 is! N Reg,single engine,SP/IFR.
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nigelh & stringfellow
The poster is in the US, not the UK: Your musings about the ills of UK society are off-topic and irrelevant. Please write to the Mail or meet on Jetblast if you want to rant. nigelh Flying IMC is a serious matter. I have met several pilots who venture SE unstabilsed to get on top or have done a bit of training in the soup. They are a danger to themselves and others. If a SE aircraft IS certified (some are) that is a different matter: it will have stabilisation and system redundancy. An hour of hovering might actually do you good: you may remember how to spell it. |
Flying IMC is a serious matter. I have met several pilots who venture SE unstabilsed to get on top or have done a bit of training in the soup. They are a danger to themselves and others. If a SE aircraft IS certified (some are) that is a different matter: it will have stabilisation and system redundancy. More recently I flew a UK police helicopter, albeit a twin, that had no stabilisation or trim system. Thankfully it's been retired now and these days I fly approved SPIFR twins with good systems and 3/4 axis autopilots. Illegal IMC? Yes, it certainly still happens. I had a close shave under the London TMA when an unknown contact (squawking mode A only) was notified to me by ATC, who were providing me with a radar service. As it had no Mode C and was manoeuvring I (wrongly) assumed it was flying in VMC at low level. However, a few seconds later it appeared just underneath my aircraft, probably closer than 100 feet below, in solid IMC, at 90 degrees to my path. There would have been no time for avoiding action from either aircraft, it all happened in a flash. I had taken the option to transit at 2400 feet under IFR and a radar service because the cloudbase was not much above 1000 feet. The pilot was obviously not under a radar service because I was speaking to the only provider. If he had, he would have given the game away by declaring his altitude. I regret not filing an Airprox at the time because it was an R-44. I know the colour, if not the registration, and from which airfield it came. |
You are right Shy Torque, i knew the answer....
I do remember some photos in the past on the "views from the cocpit" thread with some singles ie EC130 on top of the fluffy white stuff...:uhoh: Yes it can be done and only recently i heard a few people telling the private owner that asked me that they can show him how to get on the top and get down through a hole....what if there is no gap in the clouds :confused: they didn't have an answer to that..it will be fine!!! Story has it that a chap a few years ago did that from Liverpool to Cardiff and had to come back 100 miles to find a hole in the clouds and came down with very,very little fuel left onboard:ugh: Crazy to even think about it in R44, B206 etc with no proper instruments on board.. H-M |
Err....
VFR in UK - in sight of ground. When you run out of holes, I understood that to be IMC. I understand how this can be legal in a plank but I had not thought "up and over" possible in a heli John |
Visual Flight Rules, copied from CAP393:
Flight outside controlled airspace 28 (1) Subject to paragraph (6), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain at least 1,500 metres horizontally and 1,000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km. (2) Subject to paragraphs (3), (4), (5) and (6), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1,500 metres horizontally and 1,000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km. (3) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which: (a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level; (b) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and (c) is in a flight visibility of at least 5 km. (4) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to an aircraft which is not a helicopter and which: (a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level; (b) flies at a speed which, according to its air speed indicator, is 140 knots or less; (c) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and (d) is in a flight visibility of at least 1,500 metres. (5) Paragraph (2) shall not apply to a helicopter which: (a) flies at or below 3,000 feet above mean sea level; (b) flies at a speed which, having regard to the visibility, is reasonable; (c) remains clear of cloud with the surface in sight; and (d) is in a flight visibility of at least 1,500 metres. (6) Paragraphs (1) and (2) shall not apply to a helicopter which is air-taxiing or conducting manoeuvres in accordance with rule 6(i). |
The UK military used to fly single engined, unstabilised helicopters in IMC. |
The UK military still fly single engined, unstabilised helicopters in IMC.
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If the UK mil can do this, how come it is not possible for civi's to do their training in singles???
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Because the military have a different set of regulations.
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Single Engine IFR
I've been through many threads here, but I still cannot find the answers.
1 Everybody seems to agree that single engine helicopter IFR is forbidden even for private flights in the UK. Where can I find the official rule? I could not find it in the ANO using the search capability of adobe reader. 2 Are there any single engine Easa or FAA certified helicopters authorized by their Flight Manual for IFR operation, even with limitations? I've been through Eurocopter, Robinson, and Bell websites, but could not find any. |
You can still find a few (at least four) IFR certified B206 Long Rangers in Europe, where you can train and fly the SE/IR(H), under EASA rules.
For example, Proflight Nordic in Sweden (2 helicopters), Billund in Denmark, also one in Holland ... Hope it helps! JR |
Years ago there was a AS350 certified IFR it use to back and forth to the channel islands?
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What about this:
JAR–OPS 1.525 General (a) An operator shall not operate a single engine aeroplane: (1) At night; or (2) In Instrument Meteorological Conditions except under Special Visual Flight Rules. |
Thomas:
(a) An operator shall not operate a single engine aeroplane: So in JAR land you do not distinguish between airplanes and helicopters? |
For helicopters - CAT only:
SUBPART I – PERFORMANCE CLASS 3 JAR-OPS 3.540 General (c) An operator shall ensure that operations are not conducted: (1) out of sight of the surface; (2) at night; (3) when the ceiling is less than 600 ft; or (4) when the visibility is less than 800m.] |
I don't think private flight in a single engine helicopter under IFR is forbidden in the UK. All you have to do is observe the requirement of Rule 6 of the Rules of the Air Regulations 2007, and have appropriate license privileges and an appropriately equipped machine.
I can't at the moment find anything prohibiting private flight in a single engine helicopter in IMC either at the moment, although you'd have to be careful of Rule 5(3)(a) of the same regulations. That's the part of the low flying rule (Rule 5) which talks about the failure of a power unit not endangering persons or property on the surface. |
Do you not need SAS, and altitude hold to fly IFR, and there are just no SAS equipped single engine craft out there?
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Thank you for your answer. So there is no special regulation in the UK about single engine IFR helicopter, it's forbidden for public transportation, as everywhere else in Europe, but not forbidden for private operation.
Can a AS350 for instance be authorised for IFR operation? What kind of expensive stuff is required to add to a night VFR one to enable IFR operation? I cannot find anything on their websites. On Eurocopter and Bell website, there is a paint configurator (who needs that?) but almost nothing about performance or kind of operation. |
Equipment fits are covered in Schedule 4 to the ANO.
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