IR(H) Options
 

Hi.

looking for IR training early next year.

I see 3 current options.

1. £55,000 straight to a IR provider.

2. £14,000 IR(A) then TR for Twin £14,000 + IR(A) to IR(H) £20,000 = £48,000

3. £11,000 FAA IR then TR for Twin £14,000 + IR(A) to IR(H) £20,000 = £45,000

Are my figures accurate ? are the routes valid and are they any other suggestions ?

Thanks.

Mike

There's a school in Sweden with better far better figures

IR(H)
 

Hands on 123,

did you do it that way?

hm, sounds very expensive. Ask OAA Stockolm Sweden (FFS plus H) about prices...

The usual price in the UK is £35K + VAT Including twin type rating

billundaircenter.dk in denmark.
 

Single IR about 27500 pounds. I friend on mine will do it there in February next year.

How about doing it somewhere outside of the UK on a single piston engine for a couple thousand euros? :hmm:

JARland is a little wider than the British Islands... Here's an updated list of EASA members: EASA - EASA Members / Links :ok:

Im sure Im not the only one that would like to see some examples from approved training organisations

so please post some links to places that offers an EASA approved IR (H) rating on piston engine whirlybirds

Try Home | Gestair Flying Academy ... They offer an IR-H for 19.200 Euro on a Schweizer 269

Yes they would for the first question. Yes as well for the second question. For the third question: who cares whether the UK Offshore operators recognizes it or not? Once you hold a single engine IR you are then able to upgrade it to a multi engine IR once you complete a ME type rating, so that is 8 hours plus 5 hours versus 55 hours of instrument instruction of which 10 need to be on a Twin (On top of the 8 hours you need anyways for the type rating provided you have never flown a Twin before) Does this need that much more debate? :ugh:

Has anyone here actually done it like that? If so, did you save any money?

And don't forget... flying an single engine piston in VMC under the hood, is a lot different than flying a turbine twin in actual IMC.

Not convinced about the portugese outfit, I didnt find anything on their website about a HU300 IR Course. And the LongRanger in Denmark doesnt convince me either, mainly because they only have an FNPT1. Their website states about 32k EUR as cost. Doing 14.5h ME (8h TR plus 5h IR plus 1,5h checkride) for 1500 EUR/h costs you another 22k EUR, adding up to a total of 54k EUR, which is more than the 45K you have to pay for a ME IR course with FNPT2.

In general, the UK is not really attactive mainly due to the 20% VAT imposed on training. There are better options with 0% tax on training, and this makes a considerable difference for multi engine.

@Peter PanPan ... I absolutely agree with you, good sugestion:ok:

One more...you can do it on aeroplane, if you have PPL-A for example...for 7500 € (35 h FNPT plus 15 h aeroplane). Or, plus aditional 8000 € (or less) with PPL training (35 h) and 5 hours of Night Q...if you don`t fly aeroplane.

After everything, with type rating on ME helicopter, you need 10 h of transition training, from IR/SE(A) to ME/IR(H)!

I'm doing the following route;

Converting CPL(H) to UK NPPL(A) minimum 3hrs plus test (already done)

Solo flying plus 20hrs dual to convert to JAA PPL(A) (of which I'll do at least 10hrs simulated IF)

UK IMC rating (15hrs Sim IF)

Night Rating (5hrs Night)

FAA PPL IR (using a lot of the above simulated IF flying towards hours)

Then I'm going to convert to JAA ME IR(H)

Circa £25k max using C150 and a none equity share in a DA40D and I could do JAA CPL(A) IR for not a lot more!

Yes, also good combination, (A) and (H).

@Jetranger & Misterbonkers

I also explored the IR bridge route a while ago, you can certainly save some bucks while becoming dual rated but it does take some careful planning and lots of time availabilty, not ideal if you're working full time. The best value option out there is in my opinion the SEIR, while it exists and those days are counted :p

That's not necessarily the case, I'm afraid. The TR obviously requires a TRI/TRE, of which the UK offshore operators have plenty of. The SEIR to MEIR upgrade requires an IRI, which the operators might not necessarily have on staff (which would mean an additional cost and hassle). Which means that with certain operator(s), there is definetely a preference for MEIRs over SEIRs.

The never-ending SE IR(H) versus ME IR(H) discussion...

It's in the JAR-FCL regs and it will probably be in the EASA licensing regs.

A good proportion of the guys and gals that go to wok for Norsk and Helikopter Services in Norway go the FAA IR(H) then JAR-FCL SE IR(H) route. Hard to know if UK (and other European operators?) struggle to put on the SE-ME conversion course or incorporate it in the sim and TR training due to lack of available personnel to make this easy. Best ask someone in-the-know at the operators you intend to apply to.

The question might also be why an operator would see any real difference between someone who has done FNTP training plus a TR and 10 hours and test in a squirrel (JAR), compared to someone who has done FNPT training, 40-odd hours IR in an R22 or similar, more FNPT training, then 15 or more hours single engine (FAA-JAR)? One has a bit of experience in a twin that they won't be flying offshore (and barely knows that aircraft), the other has a handful hours more IR time likely a bit of GPS approach practice. When faced with the first MPH/complex type, both will have their work cut-out.

TT

@TorqueStripe: Let me guess .. you work for Bristow. All other operators seem to require a ME IR as entry ticket. If you already have a ME type rating, then it is cheaper for the operator to pay for an additional one (8 vs 5 hrs).

Also, if you paid 20k EUR for the JAR SE IR conversion course, you´ve probably spent 10k EUR on the FAA IR rating before. This adds up to about the same price as directly doing their SE IR course.

I just found 2 other SE IR-H course providers; Helibravo Helicopters and Nortávia, Transportes Aéreos SA

They do a full IR on a R44

@Peter CDG: You're on good track :ok: I can personally vouch for Gestair, the Cascais bay is gorgeous, weather can be exceptionally fair, experienced and professional instructors, there are a couple of precision approaches nearby and a non precision one on the airfield, last but not least a lovely little restaurant nearby where you can get awesome grilled fish for a couple of euros :)

All,

I've been paying particular attention to this thread as I'm currently in the process of reviewing IR options.

As noted in previous threads the SE vs ME IR argument is well documented. However, as Peter CDG pointed out there are organisations in mainland Europe offering less cost prohibitive ways of achieving an IR - without paying UK prices.

My concern is the "validity" of an R44 IR in the eyes of the CAA. Unless organisations such as Helibravo are offering an FAA IR and therefore, I've missed something?

Done anyone have actual experience of gaining an IR through Helibravo or Nortavia which has subsequently been accepted by a north sea operator for purposes of employment?

Hi Kevin,

Any course you are considering doing must be acceptable to the UK CAA if that is your licence-holding authority. Make sure the acceptance process is complete before undertaking any such course.

The question of whether NS operators favour/discrminate with respect to courses/authorities is a separate matter.

TT

@Kevin: Check my post of December 22nd. Yes is the answer, the UK CAA has issued and as I speak should still be issuing SE IR(H) based on training completed on single engine piston helicopter in a mainland european FTO. But better check with good ol'licensing dept: [email protected]

As Torquetalk said, the NS Operators discriminating with respect to course/autorities is clearly another issue. As it has already been suggested in the past, you may upgrade your SE IR(H) to a ME IR(H) after completion of an Initial ME type rating and the additional minimum 5 hours instrument instruction followed by a LST. And that could be done through a UK FTO, or Norwegian or Danish! At the end of the day you will get your ME IR(H) stamped on your UK CAA issued License and your ME training will have been conducted in one of the North Sea countries club, if that is really a concern for you. ;)

Several things from my own experience:

Consider EHC in Norway for an ME IR(H) - excellent school, and they compare very favourably to UK costs (0% VAT!). I believe you can now train there in an AS355 as well as the original Bo105. Accomodation on site, good selection of approaches at home base, and lots of budget airlines flying direct to their airport.

The CAA will require a copy of every single JAA approval (school, instructor, examiner, aircraft, etc. etc.) from a non-UK school, but assuming you have all the paperwork, it's no problem getting them to add the right things to your license (what? The school you chose was JAA-approved, right?). I assume this will continue, replacing JAA with EASA.

Of the 3 major offshore companies in the UK, only Bristow will accept a SE IR; CHC and Bond both require a ME IR to even consider you. Bristow, however, require a minimum of 500 hours ME time, if you didn't attend Bristow Academy, so you may not benefit from the SE IR anyway. The above applies to low-experience co-pilot applicants, obviously - if you have a bunch of useful experience, they'll probably make an exception on the SE IR rule.

Yes, according Lasors, section E 2.2, SE instrument ratings are introduced and available in the UK

IR(H) - Simulator Now Available in Italy
 

If anybody interested, now (when I already spent a lot of money on real machines :*) this FTO is accepting from external FTOs bookings for IR, MCC etc.


Simulatore elicottero

Hmm, do thay have page in english? Only italian...:ugh:

No english page at the moment it seems.
 

As the business is growing, I believe they will load at least the english page.
If you need help, I can give them a ring. You can post here or PM me.

Actually in the last 6 months CHC in Aberdeen have employed 3 new FOs with SE IR(H). Incidently these were all completed at Billund Air Center in Denmark.

Having also completed this course and been subsequently employed by CHC in 2010 I can highly recommend this route. I reckon I saved myself in the order of £15k which is hardly to be sniffed at and the BAC course was excellent (don't believe a word from anyone who tells you it's not as worthy as a ME IR, the skills learned are very easily transferred into a big twin.)

Assuming you mean Microsoft Flight Simulator, is it approved by the CAA/EASA?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/72638451/ar...dding%20me.jpg

Have a look here. They have their english page now.
Simulatore elicottero

EASA Training Devices
 

Have a look at this one:

http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-mea...al%20Issue.pdf

You need a night rating and 50hrs cross-country before.

The requirements for the commencing of an IR (or should i say the ME TR) are away to change. If the ME TR is not completed before Sept 17 you will require 70 Hr PIC before you can start the TR course.

All fun and games with EASA at the moment.

LZ

"The requirements for the commencing of an IR (or should i say the ME TR) are away to change. If the ME TR is not completed before Sept 17 you will require 70 Hr PIC before you can start the TR course."

Where does it state that? do you have a link anywhere?

Er.... not quite.

Stoey,

I do not have a direct link however it is happening. It has been communicated through a number of channels (mainly flight schools) and is also now stated in the IR providers Pre Reqs.

From Bond :
"If your application for the multi engine type rating, including evidence of having complied with all of the requirements for that rating, is not received by the CAA before 15th September 2012, it may not be possible for the CAA to grant the rating until you have 70 hours as pilot in command of helicopters."

LZ

@simondlh:
The 50hrs XC must be met at the time of application (i.e. before the checkride). You can log XC for any training flight which goes beyond circling your local airport for shooting approaches. However, if that can be logged as PIC is another question. Our national CAA says you can if you have a type rating. Also note that the majority of IR training takes place in the simulator. You can do just 10hrs in the aircraft, so this will not increase your XC time by much.

It won't increase PIC time by anything as it will be logged as PUT.