EC135 or Bell 429 ?
 

Hi everybody,

I am new on this forum and I need some advice
Our company wants to buy a helicopter for 5/7 passengers to be operated in Africa and in the bush with range.
We think about the EC135 or Bell 429.
Any recomendations from experienced pilots who fly one of these is welcome.
TKS:)

EC130? Worth a look.

yako: Ask around your local helicopter scene, or here on PPrune if you wish, about the product and technical support recieved from both Eurocopter and Bell. When you're working in the bush or other remote locations, this aspect of helicopter operations is very important unless you want to spend a lot of time on the ground waiting for help to fix a problem.

135 will only take 6 pax plus pilot, leaving limited fuel endurance/range

If you want 7 pax plus pilot and more fuel endurance/range then would suggest 429

But as mentioned prior, check what support for either you will get in the field....

WLM

Be careful with the numbers quoted for the 429. Use a 212!

WLM - he said 5/7 PAX not seats!

EC145 would be a substitute for "more seats 135".

Needs & wants
 

What Your company wants, what someone is trying to sell them, what they want to afford, what they need and what will actually work, can be very different things.

There are other choices and for 'bush' work I wouldn't be too interested in either. More mission specifics beyond range and 5-7 pax might help define the most appropriate aircraft. On the assumption that 1) you may be flying it and 2) that you have an interest in it being around for the long term I would more clearly define my mission/s first.

Just my 2c having been in the position of selecting aircraft.

Bell 429
 

Hi Yako,


I have sent you a pm re the above

I agree with RotaryWingB2's suggestion for Africa. You need a simple machine which can carry the pax at temperature and altitude. Does not matter how good the manufacturer support is you have customs amongst many other things to deal with so you do not want to get in a situation where you require too many spares for instance. Custom clearance and work permits for engineers if something goes wrong is a nightmare so unless it's a contract or insurance requirement stick with something requiring minimal maintenance support. The 130 is prooving herself in Africa as a workhorse and of course there is the 350 but the 130 for pax is more than adequate. A twin requires extra maintenance and auto pilots extra 6 monthly or yearly checks so be careful cause those are the undefined potholes!

The guy (old H.H) from Bell in Fort Worth, TX told me that 429 is better:}

Assuming you've already done your research and you've narrowed it down to those two...It's got to be the Bell. It's bigger, faster, stronger, newer and as has been said, the product support is second to none. Oh....and you wont have to deal with Eurocopter....win win.

I'm sure someone wont like me mentioning it but to throw another one in the mix. Have you considered the MD902. The product support is not as good as Bell but it's ok at the moment. Pilots love flying it and it has a very good safety record. If you have to land in the bush, the Notar makes it the best for confined space landings. It's very quiet in the air and very smooth(unlike the 135), it also has better range then the 135, It's far more spacious than the 135 and about the same as the B429(902 has slightly bigger main cabin but smaller boot)

In 135, biggest problem will be endurance. If thats important for you, take 145 or 429.

But, 429 is relativly new and we will see how things will go with it.

Thanks for all the info.
The 429 is relatively new as Jet ranger said, and it's why I am looking for some advices and info from pilots flying her.
Good to hear the info regarding the EC135: 6 pax but poor range. How the range is affected in high 40's?
The 145 would be perfect........but price!!!!!
Thanks for all the posts I received. it's nice to get this help.
:D

Just looked at the data on the Bell page.
According to that you can load about 4 pax with a bit of luggage on a full tank.
Is that true? Any takers?

Well, somebody said that 429 performances are not as good as you can read in papers.
Other way, I ve been in Bell TX, few months ago and discussed with TR instructors on 429 and they said its really great mashine. On HEMS 300 nm flight, 30 min faster then 135...performence exellent.

300NM
 

Sorry but who's doing 300 NM legs in a helicopter for EMS, other than Bell marketing :hmm:

Go for a Bell 412 or 212,you have good support and a built in particle sepperator as well as high skid gear for bush landings.The blades are pretty robust as far as sand erosion as well. I have operated them in Iran and various African operations and they work!!
I do have a bit of time on them,I got my 212 licence in 1972.

Sorry all, but I cannot see the nostalgic attraction of the 212, its a piece of junk. 90kts or more and your teeth are rattling.. :=

Now the UH1H or 205 is a workhorse I can understand the love for :ok:

Of the modern aircraft in the offing here, I would say the EC135 is the better from proven history, but of course the 429 has yet to win over the new audience...:cool:

Me, I'm stuck on the 139........ No comment needed :E

@Bhl

It was some their customer in Canada, 150 nm in one direction, to pick up an ill person...and way back. They do that trip very often, have both 135 & now 429 ...and very satisfied with 429 ... 30 min difference...with better endurance ... but, as you said ... it can be only Bell marketing...:rolleyes:

135 proved itself :ok:, 429 have to do that in future...

NAC in Soutth Africa operate several 429's up Africa; the Chief Pilot said he was happy with them (though they are quite pricey).

They did have some MX issues which were a bit more complicated (ability to deal with locally) and required some special ferry flights back to Joburg to be dealt with, though that's where their primary MX facility is.

Compare before buying
 

We are in the process of buying a couple of new helicopters. We are comparing the Bell 429 with the EC 135 Hermes and the MD Explorer. The specifications are self evident for the most part, but there are little on the noise levels at landing and take off. These units will be in residential areas time to time particularly as our hangar is home based. Noise level is an issue. The information on the FAA site Appendix 10 and 11 regarding aircraft noise levels is not clear and does not have these newer models in any case. If anybody has real time measurements it will be helpful…thanks

The Bell 429, EC 135 and the MD Explorer are all about the same specification. Your issue will be maintenance and repair. Go with the one that has facilities near your area of operation.

Obviously eating your own phish bait as well! :D

Really?

Or am I wrong in thinking you are replying to your own questions?

Good reading here

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Trollface.svg

I was replying to the comment above regarding which one to buy; no point buying a unit thaat has no service in the area. I have everything we need about all three except the noise levels if you'd care to actually read the notes.

Here's the hard bit..............
 

Why are you replying to your own request that you posted.

Or is your username used by several different people?

I smell PHISH.

Really? If you believe that I have a deal for you.

If noise is an issue, I recommend you take time to personally stand and listen in the area where a 429 is operating; you will be surprised at how quiet it is for a machine of it's size, compared to the two others. The four bladed tail rotor is amazingly quiet.

Don't go by just the numbers; your neighbors wont...:}

Some amazingly inaccurate and contrasting information in circulation hence ..

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/gh...w650-h207-p-no

Any accurate information (as well as approx. fuel burn) would be appreciated.

EC135P2+
we have a 710 liter capacity tank. I have never seen 137 knots in clean configuration, its more of 130kts IAS at PA 1000-2000ft. Fuel burn 220kg per hour.

Grazie Phoinix! :ok:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-i...429+comp+b.png

Fuel burn ...

Our EC135P2+ with empty weight 1890 kg, never more than 170-180 kg / per hour. Sometimes a little bit less...

Interesting.

Let's call the 'bit less' 167kg/h. This means a difference of 53kg/h between your 135 and Phoinix's.

Can we assume then that Phoinix is flying heavy loads at low altitude and you are flying light loads at high altitude?

Cruise with FLI 8 will give you 220kg/h. Flight close to vy will give you about 160kg/h. We normally fly with TOM of about 2800-2850kg.

Something like that. It's very variable with TOM/Speed...

JR

For those following the conversation but unfamiliar with some of the acronyms:

FLI = First Limit Indicator

8 = Representative of 80, for 80% torque. (FLI 10 is maximum for the 135).

TOM = Take off Mass

Vy = Speed for best rate of climb

Phoinix,

130kts IAS at 1000 or 2000ft gives you 133 to 136kt TAS (isa condition)... is your EC135 is slick or fitted with external equipment ?

In clean config, OAT 5C you would only reach 130 ias below 2700kg. Heavier than that its more 125ish.

The 429 may be $6.5m new if you fully load it up with stuff you probably don't need, but I'm pretty sure it starts under $6.

EC135P2+ minimum MAUW 2910 which can be extended to 2950kg and as the P3 to 2980kg.

Never burned more than 200kg/hr in Police role going FLI 9.5, for what it's worth.

That's 125-130kts with the camera and Nitesun fitted whilst pulling FLI9.5.

You must have some weird air mixture up there... :) FLI 9,5 on P2+?

@Savoia - P2 and P2+ although they have FLI markings, these have different torque values for the same FLI reading. FLI 10 is max. which in respect to the torque values are equal to 75% for P2 and 78% for P2+ (torque per engine).

@Brilliant Stuff: Cruising speed on EC135 is reduced by 5kts for SX-16, 4kts for FLIR and 6kts for loudspeakers... your police config reaches 130kts IAS or TAS at what PA? In clean config your EC would reach almost 145 kts... or is that the FIAT 109 we are talking about? :}

Recently went through the same comparison between the 135 and 429.
Pretty tough to get a new 429 for less than 6 million.
IMO, it would be a good idea to let the 429 platform mature for a few more years.
That said, both are good machines - but we decided on the 135- mainly because of the poor support we received from Bell on our previous machine. Hearing a lot of horror stories lately about the "award winning" support that Bell is supposed to be known for....and we operate in the same country where the machine is built. :eek:
The support from Eurocopter has been very good on the 135P2e.
BD