The cost of balls out self funded, 0 to twin IR !
 

Morning Ladies and Gentlemen,

Just been bored searching a few sites in the uk, and was wondering what does it cost now for the standard civilian to start and finish his training in the uk.

I will set the parameters at : PPL(H)
CPL(H)
FI (H) optional dependent on career path.
MULTI ENGINE rating
IR M.E

And now that VAT has gone up to 20% I think, been out of the country for to long to pay her majesty anything. The average joe bloggs that gets sucked in by the full golden sell of certain establishments, to be an offshore captain in a few years, will spend anything from 75,000 pounds to 95,000 pounds. I wonder how many people finance their houses and sell the wife just to get the possibility of a career.

I stand to be corrected about my pricing, but just wanted to get a more realistic costing for the end of 2011. Has generally the training industry seen a downturn this year, or become stable with people walking through the door saying " I want to be a helicopter please ! "


Fluffy 5

I'd guess at: £85000 + vat?

Most people doing this are redirected to the psych office (probably conveniently located. There appears to be no downturn in that industry)

Sorry. thread drift in 3 moves...

I reckon closer to £100,000 + VAT if you are going IR and FI....

What's the prize for the closest guess :)

Who believes the "golden sell of an offshore Captain in a few years" :ugh:

For the IR at least, it makes a lot of sense to go train somewhere that doesn't stick VAT on top. The total cost also depends on how/where you do your hour-building - doing some of this overseas can help significantly, as can finding a friendly private owner who will do you a deal.

Some recent approximate costs (all courses assume minimum hours):
ATPL ground school + theory exams + initial class 1 medical: £3500
CPL(H) flight training including night rating and test: £11500(ish)
ME IR(H), done outside the UK, including twin rating: £38000

So, leaving aside the PPL and hourbuilding up to 155 hours, you're looking at around £53k. I believe a PPL in a R22 costs around £15k at the moment, so that's £68k, plus the cost of 100ish hours. Allowing £15k for the hour building takes you to £83k.

So I'd say £85k is a reasonable ball-park estimate. This number doesn't take account of additional ratings, or the bargaining skills of the individual in getting better hour-building rates. It assumes everything is done in minimum hours, with no resits. And it doesn't include an FI rating.

Assuming minimum hours, all the training in the UK, R22 @ £336 per hour inc VAT per hour for training and £300 per hour inc VAT for SFH, I reckon it's pushing £150k for FI and IR. I've allowed £45k for the IR in total and £6k for theory courses and exam and flight test fees.

Cheers

Whirls

Having done it all in the past... I would say Whirlygig has the most accurate figure with 150K.... that is certainly around the figure it cost me (or the bank depending on who’s money you consider it was...).

:eek: Mein Gott! Surely this includes VAT???

To be fair... Yes it does include VAT.

and very good value it is too, flying and exams are easy (especiallly the IR), very little risk with loads of jobs at the end of it, all in all a very wise investment I would say, c'mon down lets get training!

although it has gone up slighly from the £40k nett, I paid in the 1990s, which got me PPL,FI,CPL (in that order) and in those days there was no need to pay for an IR as they were not generally required up front. and we had NVQ tax relief which knocked about £10k off and you could claim back VAT (hopefully you still can) that was good for about £7k.

I guess new people need daddys (or mummys) money again these days whereas we managed it ourselves at the time, although we did moan about it then too!

No one has mentioned the nervous breakdown and divorce yet.

Look on the bright side though - if it does lead to divorce, he/she can't blag you for all your money coz you won't have any! ;)

£110k including VAT, finished it all in 2006. Now flying offshore in a strange land, so yes, it ain't cheap! Not divorced quite yet.

So we could estimate that in a ten year period the cost of changing a complete career path has almost doubled in cost. I wonder if the salary has doubled in cost. Some instructors would remember being paid 20 pounds an hour some time ago...
Also the offshore captain salary ten or so years ago....... has that doubled ?

So we could say in general, that the end of 2011 the full cost 150k inc vat.

fluffy

20% VAT what a rip off.

I left the UK seven and a half years ago and I won't be back. Tony and his loonies definately took over the asylum (seeker) and bankrupt the country.

And Gordon Brown should be arrested for treason.

You're better off spending your hard earned offshore and at least having the chance of getting a flying job somewhere.

and yes I am aware that the 'current' government raised the VAT to 20%! That's what happens when you inherit a bankrupt economy.:*

It's difficult to put a number on this, as it really depends on the route you take. If you go integrated, as an example, the main school in Scandinavia will do zero to CPL for roughly £65k plus incidentals. An IR with them adds around £35k, so approx £100k all in.

If you start out with a clear, multi-year plan (and stick to it), you can get it done for less. I know, I've done it! I started with a 4 year plan which became a 5ish year plan, and prices were definately lower when I started. My route was PPL, hour building, ATPL ground, CPL, IR. All flight training was in minimum or near-minimum hours. I was very lucky in my first career, so with some planning, I finished with no debt. I worked very hard to get the hour-building costs down, and with some luck and a lot of running around, and some help from others, I had some amazing experiences and got some very cheap hours.

I estimate my total costs at between £85k and £90k. I haven't added up the final bill yet - I'd prefer not to know - but it's definately 'could have bought a house' money. There are ways to reduce the costs, if you're prepared to take the initiative and do the legwork. If I was starting today, I guess £95k - £100k would be a reasonable guess.

I can't think of any other profession that you can spend £100,000 to get qualified, and there are not many jobs around. Can you?

Has anyone any anecdotal evidence of the numbers of people who are going through the CPL system? (Bristow academy etc).

Will there be a shortgage in a few years due to people not training? Or will there always be a core group of people with rich parents willing to bankroll them?

I searched on the CAA website without success, but they used to publish a table of all the different ratings issued each year, this included initial Helicopter IR's. They also used to publish the number of ATPL (H)'s they issued as well.I hope you have better luck finding them than I did.

I would guess that the FAA might do similar.

From the above, between April 2009 and March 2010, there were:

77 ATPL(H) issued, 58 renewed or revalidated, with 2 IRs and 2 FIs issued
196 CPL(H) issued, 82 renewed or revalidated, with 82 IRs and 48 FIs issued
262 PPL(H) issued, 171 renewed or revalidated

I assume the IR and FI numbers are people who already had the relevant license who added an IR to it.

Since I started looking at getting into aviation nearly 20 years ago, there has always been promises of a pilot shortage. I don't think the North Sea has ever been short of applicants.

Quote:

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The cost of balls out self funded, 0 to twin IR !

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You will not necassarily have your balls out and on the table when you are being interviewed by the bank mangager or perhaps Bristow/CHC/Bond but it will certainly feel as if you have.

Those are interesting statistics. Just imagine a conservative figure of 50 cpl(h) and the multi engine IR to go with it. Out of 50 guys and girls in one year it would be interesting to know the percentage of who got employed in the first year. I think if people knew the actual chances of employment, compared to the amount of money ,definetly balls out or the wife will have them when you explain the no immediate employment start... :sad:

fluffy5

INTERESTING STATS
 

Does anyone know if the stats available from UK CAA are anywhere to be found in JARLAND and/or FARLAND. Would be interesting to see if the trends in those stats are mirrored elsewhere.

G.

SE IR
 

How about "just" taking a single engine IR ? I did that in Denmark in 2008 and atleast when applying for CHC they didnt care and the ME part was integrated easily in the typerating when I got the job.

But maybe rules have changed ? Otherwise look into Billund Air Center and I know there is school somewhere in Sweden aswell, both of these flying jetrangers. Should be better for the wallet.

good luck

There are several schools around the EU still offering SE IRs. Current info from the big three are that Bristow don't mind whether your IR is SE or ME (they'll upgrade it to ME as part of the necessary initial training anyway), but Bond and CHC won't let you past HR without a ME IR.

What flying would you do if you had £100k to spend
 

CAA Statistics are here. All the info is in a PDF so no easy to read charts, should have guessed they would make it as difficult as possible! The publication FTN (Flight Training News) usually has a nice historical line graph within it, unfortunately they don't publish an online version. Maybe someone can scan a copy.

As for spending over a £100k to do it all again I have to agree I might (but still don't regret taking the gamble) opt to just to get a PPL and then spend the rest of the money doing some different flying. Could be an interesting thread to find out what sort of recreational flying professional pilots would do with that money. I like the idea of a charity round the world flight!

PT

The challenge of getting the first few hrs and ratings is not half as bad as the next 1000 hrs turbine, which if you do privately is somewhere between $500,000 and $1,000,000. (or more depending on where you are/type of machine).

Much much better to have someone else pay for those hours!!

Tax deduction for flight training.
 

A related question:

If you at some point in your life decide to go through with it , and buy yourself a commercial license, and even maybe a rating, at the cost of maybe £50-100k,:

Do you then get a full (or partial) tax deduction for these expences?

I'd greatly appreciate an answer also from countries outside the UK.



Thanks

f

In the UK, flight training is fully liable for VAT, so if you did all your training in the UK, 20% of the cost would go to the gubbermint.

The issues surrounding claiming back the VAT on professional flight training have been explored in some detail elsewhere (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/198...ing-costs.html and http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ed-2011-a.html for example). The simple answer is if you intend to become a VAT-charging entity (i.e. you plan to contract out your services, or start a company doing this), then you can claim back VAT (at least on the professional bits of your training); if you plan to become an employee of someone else, then you can't. As always with these things, it depends, and if this is more than idle curiosity for you, then you'd be better off talking to an actual tax professional.