Press Release
 

Anyone have a link to the press release at The UK Government's Department for Transport?

Developing Assets (UK)

Are they a serious company? Or is another agency like zenon? I've never heard of them!

Developing Assets -well connected I would say. Not an agency, more a one man show.

Can't find anything on the DfT website, but this is a link to a Rotorhub article dated 7th March -

Shortlist of bidders for long-term UK SAR contract revealed - News - Shephard

The way they are advertising the job for sar it seems like a agency. What they win with that??

Developing Assets
 

Just to clarify, Developing Assets UK Ltd, is a perfectly legitimate company who do currently have 25 operators, Front and backseat,working globally and in the UK.
This is expanding and the posts on LinkedIn are genuine.

It is definitely not an agency.

Hope that helps.

Child of Ptolemy - Check PMs.

SAR Chasm

I take it this is a S-92 SAR job and that is why you are posting it on this forum?

I believe that today's the day. Contract process stage X.

Maybe some have helped the DfT out by merging or walking away ... or not.

Anyone heard anything?

One for the potential contractors to consider - apparently all future paramedics will be required to complete degree level training before they are allowed to call themselves paramedics.

This seems part of the over-qualification race that affected the nursing profession.

So, do the future SAR providers embrace all the extra study (and costs associated) to retain the title of paramedic for the winchmen or do we go back to them just rescuing people and taking them as quickly as possible to definitive medical care?

At the moment you don't need to have done a degree to be called a paramedic, Thats the bottom line! In the future to become a paramedic that might be the only route.

Paramedic
 

In regards to UK HPC Registered Paramedics after July 2013 all paramedic training will have to be Degree based learning.

You can still complete the Modular learning route at the moment and there is two medical providers providing the modular training to approprate private indviduals COSAR and Promethus Medical of Hereford.

The cost os around 10,000 Pounds.

Scoop and run Crab, scoop and run! :ok:

For once I agree with Crab. This is over the top. When I did the Advanced IEC in 1993 myself and most other winchman felt it was just the right level of knowledge we needed.

During my last visit to COSARM in 2009 I was talking with a few very experienced winchmen (mostly my ex-students from SKTU!) when this was being first mooted by W**l H*&^%s as the way forward. And they all said-why? Why not in that case just get paramedics and train them up as winchmen. Oh that old chestnut again.

Wiretensioner (ex)

There is certainly a case for scoop and run but it really depends on what you mean by 'definitive care.' If you mean getting patient with head injury to definitive care (i.e. somewhere with a neurosurgical facility) then a paramedic in a helicopter travelling in a fast, straight line is a good idea whatever their basic qualification. Depending on how that paramedic is trained, they can value add treatment enroute to make the patient's recovery/survival that much better. I suppose that's where the education comes in and hopefully a robust governance system to support the clinician and crew.

I came into the ambulance service at a technician/certificate level and I have seen the current flock of degree student paramedics struggle with attempting to apply their advanced knowledge to the vast majority of ambulance work which doesn't need anymore knowledge than how to depress the accelerator on the ambulance. So, a degree education may not be needed for the vast majority of work but it certainly helps when you're operating on the rarer case presentations that paramedics find themselves with now and again.

I currently work in HEMS environment with a permanent paramedic/doctor system delivering up to a full anaesthetic capability. I'm certainly no where near educationally than the doctor is but then I'm employed for my general pre-hospital experience to enhance the team. I would not propose a similar system for SAR although I am sure it would benefit patient care. The ability to deliver definitive care in the back of a helicopter is extremely difficult but not impossible so most of our interventions are done before packaging and transfer so that the helicopter can be used for what it was designed for--a versatile and fast(ish) transfer platform.

I wonder how the argument would go if the pilots only required a PPL to fly SAR helicopters? Education does have a place, it's getting the balance right to give the best service to the user and allowing the practitioner to intervene in a safe and responsible way.

take care all,

ropes

No sh1t Sherlock!

Competence, not degrees
 

In a LOT of years in RAF SAR, I saw crewmen save thousands of lives, often with complicated and prolonged medical intervention. I saw countless doctors express incredulity that the casualties had been kept alive as long as they had, and watched them heap praise on countless RAF winchmen for their superb and 'of the moment' medical skills.

I never once saw a winchman's medical skills criticised, although I watched many doctors founder in the back of a Seaking, before the winchmen politely moved them aside and saved the casualty.

Skill and ability are where you find them. I know pilots with degrees who are lethal, and should not be allowed to fly a kite. I know pilots with 'no' quals, who are senior RAF instrucors and fly with near perfection.

The imminent loss of the military ethos, standards and pursuit of perfection (don't believe me? - then you have never been trapped by SAR Staneval) are the real crime. Standards will drop and lives will be lost. Are civvies less professional? Of couse not. Less dedicated? Nope. Less able? No. But 50 years of corporate knowledge, ethos and dedication cannot transfer across without loss. I Would love to be wrong and will be the first to admit it if I am, but somehow I am guessing I don't need to make these words sweet, because I won't be eating them.

There will now follow a collection of angry words by people who have never set foot in SARTU or been trapped by SAR Staneval.

There could also easily be a post from someone who have experienced both systems.....

I thought we had managed to move away from this CiV vs Mil stuff... I guess not. :(

The standards at a CIV base are always moving on the up as well.....

Dear oaf... please excuse the lack of proof reading, perhaps you would like to add to the debate rather than acting as my spell checker?

Chapabeefer: perleeeeze....for the sake of humanity...don't go back down that old, wornout, sanctimonious route again.. Can we move along in a progressive manner, please......paracetamol please? :ugh:

Just as well that paracetamol is cheap then!:)

Thomas Coupling,

Thank you for your erudite, incisive and considered reply:hmm:.

Which part of my post is it that causes you difficulty?

Do you disagree that the RAF have been carrying out SAR for years and years?

Do you disagree that RAF winchmen have saved thousands of lives, and that doctors have praised them for doing for so?

Do you believe that a life saving service, recognized as the best of it's kind, can be scrapped without consequence to life?


You have taken issue with my post. Please, which statement of mine is factually incorrect? I await your expert response.

Or... - are you simply one of those who will benefit from the civilianisation of SAR, and therefore deny the truth in order to further your own ends?

A reasoned, exacting and factual reply is required (although not expected)

Good day to you.

That's quite a claim for starters. How many thousands of lives did you see saved? I don't have a LOT of hours of SAR but to see thousands of lives saved you must have done a LOT of jobs because in my experience a LOT of calls are not life saving.

I only hope when I have flown a LOT of SAR hours I will have helped saved thousands of lives too but to date I reckon about <5% of jobs are actually life saving.

"recognized as the best of it's kind"

Losers are always whining about the best, winners go home and........... ;)

To say something is the best needs a bit of backing up with facts.... so feel free to give the facts (not expecting any).

....and i think you will find we will all benefit from the civilianisation as the crews will have "better" (there is that word again)" equipment to carry out there jobs....

Since you wanted to go round this point yet again! Round and round it goes.... where it stops.... oh thats right we do know where it stops... ;)

Chopabeefer should be aware that SAR operations have been conducted by many and varied organisations over the years and are not the exclusive property of the RAF. The late Alan Bristow set the bar at an astonishingly high level when he rescued wounded French troops in Indo China in a Hiller in the 1950`s, gaining the Legion d`Honeur for his efforts. All three services have been involved in the evolution of techniques and myriad civilian companies have taken advantage of military expertise to provide local services as and when requiired, such as Management Aviation, North Scottish, Bond, Bristow, British Airways, BEAS, CHC, BIH to mention but a few.

It is about time the Crabs stopped working themselves up to orgasm over ownership of bragging rights for SAR and acknowledged that the new world of SAR is here to stay, crewed by professionals front and back seat who may well come from different backgrounds, not necessarily military.

Finally, never lose sight of who it was who taught the RAF to fly the Sea King in the first place, it was the RN, I know cos I was there!

You may have helped teach the first RAF crews how to fly the Sea King Snarlie, but insinuating you taught them how to do SAR would be pushing it a bit. Crabtu (RAF Sea King Training Unit), while under naval command was a joint unit with a syllabus blending RN Sea King type experience with RAF SAR knowledge. After the first 2 years and for the next 32, RAF Sea King training moved on as as an exclusively Crab affair. So whatever the truth of your main point about general SAR development, I am afraid your RN point falters after the first fence.
Agree about your broader point though - The Crab SAR boys maybe good but hey, much has happened elsewhere in the UK SAR scene over the last 50 years. Didn't Bristow introduce FLIR first? - Oh yes, so they did! :ugh:

Beware hyperbole
 

I always bristle when I hear or read about someone leading off about saving lives. There are a number of organisations that are very quick to wrap up there efforts using the 'saved lives' title but those of us that work or have worked in that part of the business (SAR, HEMS, Police) know the reality is that we are for the most part one element in a team of people who contribute to the saving of life. Those occasions when you can put your hand on your heart and say "we/I saved that persons life today" are few and far between.

You or your crew may have provided the critical stabilising care that gave the casualty the best chance of survival or maybe you removed them to a more secure location but we should not forget that the treatment provided by the doctors and surgeons also counts, as does the TLC in the ICU (not to mention the plethora of support staff that put you in a position to do your job).

Over-stating your efforts should be done with care.

G. :ok:

Bristow SAR
 

And fully automated SAR autohover/autopilot - LN450.

erhmmmm....
 

........fully automated auto hover - I seem to remember having that in my Sea King in 1970 and if you leave out the aux hover trim then my Wessex 3 had full-auto hover in 1969 and was around a while before that.

G.

Chopabeefer - I think you have been suitably chastised re your post. Go and stand over there in the corner for causing a near riot in the classroom!
The rest of you get on with your work and concentrate on the job in hand which is Civvy SAR for the Uk i.a.w. European legislation. Who the players might be and how they are going to do it (especially in the remaining time frame!)

Honestly...............:ugh:

Good summary Mr TC Headmaster Sir.

Yes, we all know it's going to happen so let's do all we can to make it the best.

Well said GinCornwall

Here, here!:ok:

I think the Wx HAS1 had a vaguely reliable system before that, but certainly the HAS3/Newmark Mk30 AFCS was front line in 1967: about the time we started at BRNC, Geoff!

I'm not sure when Bristow started FLIR SAR ops, but the NSCA (Vic) had civil FLIR use somewhere around 1982-83, IIRC.......

I think the points made about LN450 and Bristow's FLIR were made in direct reference to UK SAR (and in the LN450 case - to the first use of the coupled auto pilot for SAR under UK CAA certification). There is no doubt that other military ac had coupled AFCS's before that but thats not quite the point.

Fully concur with Geoffers' and TC's points though!:)

Who are you, Phil the Greek?

...and my Wessex 1 had full auto hover long before that, although the transition down and up needed a bit of encouragement from the pilot in terms of radalt tweaking.

As for Tallsar, if you read my post closely you will note that nowhere did I imply that I had taught the Crabs SAR, everyone knows you can tell`em but you can`t tell`em much. Suffice it to say that RN Sea KIngs were practising night SAR including night live lifts when the Crabs were still stumbling about in Wessex 2`s.

The p*****g contest between RN and RAF which has been going on since April Fool`s Day 1918 does not play any part in the current discussion about the future of SAR in the UK.

Snarlie - friend.... my post was to ensure the younger members of this thread understood precisely what happened all those years ago. Sadly I can still recall it far too well.
Whether you intended it or not, the tone of your message, along with the short statement about the RN teaching the RAF to fly the Sea king could have been interpreted several ways.
Of course the RN was doing great stuff with the Sea King (and the Belgians and Noggies too!) for quite a few years before the RAF got their hands on some yellow Mk3s - and amongst other things you learned about salt accumulation on compressor discs during prolonged hovering in gales near large vessels!:mad::eek:
We learned a lot in those early days from many RN hand me downs, including night low level over water expertise, and from Culdrose bar talk... and were grateful for it... as we were soon to find out. It doesn't change the fact we then took things further, as was inevitable once it was our train set to play with - SAR mountain flying with the Sea King being an early and demanding learning exercise! We learned too that our monthly winch usage was on average some 10 times per cab greater than that of any RN cab at the time...and exposed several key problems with it that the RN experience had yet to fully expose. All in all then a joint effort that has contributed to the SK's continued success in the SAR role, even if the old girl is now well past its sell by date by modern standards. I for one really do hope the future comes sooner rather than later... its well overdue now.:)

Since the salt encrusted IGV's were during Dave Mallock and Tony Baker's rescue in 1974 it is only fair to include the Luftwaffe, as it was one of their cabs that Dave was driving ;)

Apologies for the OT rambling......

"Captain to crew, MASTER CAUTION - Thread Drift." :zzz: