Utter tosh! Breathtaking ignorance:ugh:

Well Wizzard, perhaps you'd like to expand and explain why you think it is not rare to need a second pilot for GA ops in a light twin?

Please let's move along - SPIFR is totally and utterly acceptable in this day and age. The technology caters for this in the extreme. PROVIDED the pilot is adequately qualified to fly SPIFR - should the weather dictate, OR is competent enough if flying VFR only to steer well clear of IMC.
Don't look to the operation or a/c for fault...look to the pilot. After all, statistically nearly 70% of all accidents are pilot error.
The CAA dictate a 2 pilot ethos and this is based on medical grounds/risk, not workload.

Yes but...........
 

....... it's all very well pontificating but the reality is that whilst SPIFR may be the zenith of a professional helicopter pilot's qualifications we get precious little practice, little training and dream about a good set of sim sessions to set us up properly. When cost isn't an issue it makes sense to go two-up. Even if all the co pilot does is keep the (up to 12) pax in order during embarkation and more particularly during disembarkation when they have a horrible habit of baling out whilly nilly during the 2 minute run-down despite being told not to. (its my helicopter and I'll do as I want to syndrome).

Two crew is the way ahead as far as I am concerned unless and until we all get SPIFR recurrent training every 6 months in a suitable sim that goes beyond a quick wizz around the ILS pattern.

G. :ok:

A few thoughts provoked by comments already posted by others on this accident:

Was this aircraft carrying out an ILS or any other type of IFR letdown? Does instrument flying training/recency therefore have something to do with this accident? I must have missed an initial report...

I think basic mission planning / contingency planning is perhaps one thing the AAIB might be looking at closely, as well as other things, in this case.

I first flew SPIFR in 1979 and have done so for much of my career since, although I have quite a lot of multi-crew IFR time too. More recently I flew a 109 SPIFR for some years before the owner decided he might like someone else to have a chance of landing it if I popped my clogs in flight.

Medical grounds only was the rationale behind the decision; perhaps he thought I looked a bit peaky...

However, the CAA do not mandate two pilot ops for our type of operations.

cfit
 

i think it a bit early for you guys to call this a CFIT accident, the pilot had a lot of experience operating in this area, have you seen the service bulletin caa has put out regarding 109's?

Emergency AD - No 2010 - 0222 - E: 22nd October 2010. May be a Red Herring.......
 

ATA 65 Tail Rotor Drive – Tail Rotor Special Hub Plug - Inspection

Manufacturer(s): Agusta S.p.A
Applicability: A109A and A109AII helicopters, all serial numbers if equipped with tail
rotor special hub plug part number (P/N) 109-0133-18-103.
Reason: A mistaken value of the tightening torque of the tail rotor special hub plug
P/N 109-0133-18-103 has been discovered in the Maintenance Manual of
A109A and A109AII helicopters.
The investigation carried out by Agusta has revealed that the wrong value
of the tightening torque was introduced with the revision 9 of the A109A
and A109AII Helicopter Maintenance Manual dated 15 June 2009.
This condition, if not corrected, could ultimately lead to tail rotor
malfunction.
Effective Date: 25 October 2010
Required action(s)
and Compliance
Time(s):
Required as indicated, unless accomplished previously:
Within the next 5 flight hours after the effective date of this AD but no later
than 30 November 2010, whichever occurs first, verify the tightening
torque of the special tail rotor hub plug P/N 109-0133-18-103, and do the
applicable corrective actions, in accordance with the instructions of Agusta

Alert Bollettino Tecnico 109-132.




I understand this AD does not refer to N2NR. It is a Red Herring.

So the Emergency AD that was published the day before the accident, might have had something to do with it, huh?

Who needs air crash investigations when you have Pprune, heh?

EGAB to EGCK does not take the flight close to the Mourne Mountains. As far as I can tell the accident site would be about 10+ miles off the direct track between the two aerodromes.

From the initial uncertainty about the POB, I wonder if a flight plan was flied? (It would have to be for the direct route which crosses the FIR boundary).

Why would such a flight avoid taking the direct routing option and use a route that took it over high ground and would cause an extended over-water flight compared to the direct route?

The mods will probably kill this comment...but we'll see ?

Yes, it was a post of low intellect and totally unsuited to a thread about a fatal accident. The number of posts on this thread showing an astounding lack of sensitivity along with wild, unfounded speculation has saddened me.

Senior Pilot

Any info on the pilots name? A Pm would be fine. A friend of a friend who knows someone who flies for the company and is not able to get in touch. Many thanks.

the pilot was my uncle and they havent named him yet as some of the family have not been notified

Jackal ... sincere condolences to you and your family.

Whirls

Condolences to your family, I flew with your uncle a number of times and he will be missed.

receiving private pm's
 

it seems youre blocking getting messages glass half empty

Jackal - let me join Whirls in her sentiments, condolences to you and your family

22

I am truly disappointed by the scurrilous, disingenuous speculation cropping up on here.

How about we make a base assumption that the pilot was professional in his planning and execution of this sortie and that he was fully competent and qualified to conduct it? Perhaps we can also make the leap of faith that he also flew in accordance with the regulations in place.

How about we also assume that his name has not yet been released for good reason? - NoK desire, positive identification issues or some other reason unknown to us general public.

I know this is a rumour network but some of the comments are close to offensive. Three men have died and there are a whole lot of distraught people trying to come to terms with their loss. This is a tragedy which will takes years for loved ones to come to terms with. Perhaps we can hold in mind the effect our comments might have when these poor people inevitably read this thread.

May I humbly suggest that if anyone wants to open a debate about single pilot IFR, poor weather flying in the mountains, aircrew not being qualified to fly a particular sortie, they start another thread.

I suspect some clever sod will respond to this post in some 'put-down, right to know' way but frankly, I don't give a t+ss what your opinion is. Let us be responsible with our speculation and have a mind for those people most affected by this accident.

Rant stowed and secure.

Jackal. I believe I knew your Uncle and I posted this before I saw your comments. It stands in any event and I wish to add to the two recent expressions of sympathy. I considered him a friend and an excellent pilot - dodgy in his taste of TV programmes over a three day Bessbrook but someone I shared some challenging and interesting flying experiences with. Both my wife and I knew him for over 25 years and I know the world will be sadder and quieter without him. My thoughts are with you and your family at this terrible time.

thankyou to you both, i never thught he'd go like this, it was a shock he was a good pilot

So very sorry for the families and friends of those lost.
Sincere condolences from Myself and My Family.
We lost our Son/Brother - also a Helicopter Pilot - in a crash September '09.

I recomed that you take some time to consult the PPL confuser!! :D

A flight plan is required for a flight that crosses an international FIR boundary. The London / Scottish boundary is not an international one.

The Scottish / Shannon one is and so is the Shannon / London one.

My question assumes that the flight was operated perfectly but for some reason chose to remain within the UK FIRS which causes and extended routing, a need to fly over high ground and a need to use a turn point in the middle of the Irish sea on an extended over-water leg.

Why not simply fly VFR (or IFR) on the direct route over low level terrain and a shorter sea crossing?

Regarding flight plan filing
CAP694 CH1 Para 2
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%20694.pdf

As per post above #63, flight was within uk airspace so not required. A109 from memory, 'loaded' weight of less than 5,700kgs, so not required there either.

It is advisable that a plan is filed for a journey over water where distance exceeds 10NM from UK coast, and remote areas where Search and Rescue could be difficult.

In my experience it's not unusual for a VFR flight UK-NI-UK to not file a VFR plan. The rationale for those decisions should be another thread. Post #17 indicates that he probably booked out his departure, and his destination knew he was coming and when to expect him.

Appleavi8or
 

Well said that man! I could not have put it better myself.

People need to stop offering their speculative cr@p based on what they think could have happened if.....

One of the team is dead, he was a character and he will be dreadfully missed by many. His passengers are dead, they will also be dreadfully missed. If anyone feels the need to impress the forum with their investigative prowess and super knowledge, go and speculate somewhere else.

Tam Macklin

Yes a direct route would go via the Shannon FIR and thus would require a flight plan so with the absence of a flight plan it would appear that the aircraft was intending to route clear of the Shannon FIR.

I had thought of the Licence / Reg issue but even routing around the Shannon FIR would cause the flight to be outside the UK during part of the flight (especially over the Sea) so if that was the case then I am sure the pilot would have remained in the UK at all times i.e. route via Scotland.

How easy is it for a pilot who wants to fly direct in such a case to file a flight plan from a remote location these days i.e. with no fax or AFPEX access? Would the hassle be enough to discourage a direct route?

Agree with Hihover, the pilot was a one off and I've had a few laughs with him over the last 10years or so. None of us know what happened and wild speculation doesn't help.
Wait until the official report then discuss not the other way round!

EGAB to EGCK does not take the flight close to the Mourne Mountains. As far as I can tell the accident site would be about 10+ miles off the direct track between the two aerodromes

The helicopter flew to Baronscourt when it left EGAB.

An aviation forum where an aircraft crash is reported and which occurs within the region from where a large number of members are subscribed - you are going to have to accept that, of all the places in the world, this is exactly where you will find speculation.

Those of you who knew the persons involved will be offended by anything other than condolences and factual reports and some of the emotive comments posted prove this point. Sorry to you for the lack of sensibility on the part of some posters - I doubt if its intentional but this is the nature of the beast (both online forums and the speculations which arise after an event such as this).

Those who didnt know those involved - try to form your comments in such a way so as to avoid offending those who may be reading and who knew the victims.

In my view (and I am trying to be objective given that I haven't a clue who was involved and am unfamiliar with that territory) it is unreasonable to expect zero speculation on such a forum. Frankly, what else can participants do except speculate?

Much of the tension is caused by the fact that this has happened in your own back yard and where some people know each other. To prove the point, a notice: "Helo Down in Qinghai Province" (China) would be far less liekly to draw emotive responses (unless it were a Chinese forum without restrictions).

I see that even Senior Pilot has felt disappointed by some of the posts.

If the forum moderators feel strongly about the quality of responses (which means they care) then they should put up a 'code of conduct' to remind those with no emotional connection to the event to 'mind their words' and to protect the relatives and freinds of those involved.

If you want this to be a condolences thread with the only other published information being details released in the media - you should say so.

Pilots/others taking wild stabs as what may have happened and doing so in a way which might upset those close to the victims - stop it.

The best any of us can hope for in situations like these is that something useful is gained from the tragedy, something hopefully which might save someone else in the future!

HM

apple

Firstly, let me state that I feel the pain of the family, and mean no disrespect what so ever.

As far as I am concerned....rumor network it is...Condolences to the family etc...yada yada yada......

Maybe we can all speculate and LEARN...... funny how when ever there is a fatality in the UK...you people all want to wait for the AIIB or whatever it is called...yet have an accident on this side of the pond and you are all over it...

If ever I die in an accident...please feel free to speculate and ask questions.... Please feel free to learn from my demise....if it turns out I was stupid...and someone learns to not follow my lead...then my loss is their gain....

Let the speculation continue.....with all due respect.

There are always thousands of 'ifs', usually they are irrelevant and armchair investigators should be ashamed. Just remember, there isn't a law making you take the shortest route or the fastest route or even the best route. Some people fly routes because they just want to.........
Why go the same old same old same old if you can afford not to?? He went that waybecause he did!! The aircraft was a suitable type to do it, so why not? The Mourne mountains are very beautiful all year round.
This IS a rumour network, if you have a rumour then I will fight your corner to announce it. However criticizing an acceptable route choice or whether a flight plan wasn't filed (don't have to) or stating the actual cause (without proof) of an accident is a bit tacky......:sad:

Keep the discussion going; there are some extremely interesting facts emerging from this thread.

Jim

As I understand it they were coming back from a shooting weekend, this might also have determened their route home staying within Uk FIR if their hardware was on board.

Get a life guys - this is the real world of rumour mongering in print here on Pprune, thats why it's so popular. You'd talk about it in the crewroom/office/bar so why not on here.

If you don't like it - move along and go elsewhere, loads of other helo forums.

This accident has the hallmarks of almost all the other helo / bad weather accidents: CFIT. Bad weather and off track (intentionally or otherwise). I've read many and I've been to quite a few in the aftermath.

The benefit of reading peoples views on here in the warnth of the house/office etc is that hopefully they might take some of the comments on board so that they are better prepared on the day they are tested :=

Good post Gordy.

familiarity
 

As yet the pilot remains unnamed, but if as his former colleague indicates he knew and flew out of Bessbrook, he would have been very familiar with the local terrain and weather and someone anyone would have been happy flying with.

Because in the crew room, you know who you're talking to and who's listening - here, you don't (with a few exceptions!)

Cheers

Whirls

I think there is some confusion about flight plans. If you fly from the mainland of the UK to the Isle of Mann, Northern Ireland or the republic of Ireland then you need to file a flight plan as special branch (police) have an interest. If you are polite you might get away with filing the same day but they normally want 24 hours notice.

Chopper Doc,

I think you will find that what you talk of is NOT a flight plan filed with ATC.

Bessbrook
 

eye witnesses living in Bessbrook have told a local cameraman that they saw the Augusta over the village on saturday. nothing offical. could have been revisitng old haunts?

Informing special branch is not the same as filing a flight plan. We can not learn anything from wild speculation.
I do know I would trust this pilot to fly me and my folks in any weather, anytime, anywhere.

Eh guys, are we wondering why he crashed? Or are we wonder whether he crashed legally while sticking to all regulations ?


Too much speculation on a flight and area most of you know nothing about...

gordy, im new (ish) here, a humble ppl with a wish to survive. thank you for articulating a pprune issue that has puzzled me for years..... when i hear of a crash i speculate wildly, online, with pilot friends, in the pub with non pilot friends who ask me. why??? because by exploring all the issues speculatively i hope to learn from them which one day may keep me alive and make me a better pilot. a crash stimulates debate energetically which ill informed or not is better than no debate at all. isnt this just the reason for an online forum????

so if its cfit, incapacity, or just the engines stopped lets talk about it... even if we all prove to be wrong i for one could learn heaps from the discussion. what on earth is wrong with that.?? if god forbid i ever crash id love you all to talk endlessly about it in the hope that no one else does the same..... yes people have died, its tragic, a whole different issue and i cant begin to think how the families are coping,, but its not insensitive to talk about the events, it just isnt.

by the time the aaib report is published we will all have moved on, now is the time to discuss this. a close friend of mine was killed 13 months ago in a light piston,,,, still no sign of a report. so what are we supposed to do just sit tight???

the censoring of speculation on this forum has baffled me for a long time. its basic human nature, exploring the survival instinct. this is by no means linked to a lack of respect to the deceased and their loved ones, to whom i offer my profound condolences, i am not equipped to deal with what they are going through and wont try..... i just hope it never happens to me....

which is why i speculate in the meantime.

I will say again, I believe we learn nothing from wild speculation! If you wish to learn from others mistakes look at the AAIB reports.
We all have ideas about why people crash but to actually learn we must have the full details not parts of ,or speculation. I am not after censorship but rubbish about a flight plan(not needed) or the merits or not of N-reg (maybe another time) don't help or explain the reasons why.
I will say no more on the matter.
Jarvy