Helicopters and Volcanic Ash?
 

It's an interesting morning out here in the North Sea...:bored:

As my door is being battered down by worried helicopter passengers asking what's going on, can I prevail upon you professionals for some answers to give them?

Why aren't helicopters flying when we understand that the volcanic ash is at a high level (just heard its at 6000m and above on the news).

I presume the ash would have exactly the same effect on helicopter turbines as on jet a/c? Also can it be confirmed that there is still no method of monitoring volcanic ash from your flight decks?

Personally I'd much rather you didn't fly if there was any question of problems being caused by the current situation, but others less aware need to be given good reasons why they will be stuck offshore for the next few days.

Thanks for any enlightenment :ok:

All you need to tell them is that due to a volcanic ash cloud, it has been decided that airspace is closed until further notice, and this is being done for the safety of travellers. It's a saftey issue, surely that's all they need to know? Tell them to check the NATS website if they want more details, even though its just crashed due to everyone logging in!

It's not your fault, not your problem, and it's all part and parcel of air travel, ie 'Time to spare? Go by air' !!!:ok:

Wonder if North Sea pilots will get the day off? :E

BBC News reporting one of the northern air ambulances are grounded - I think they said Yorkshire.

now I can understand airliners being grounded due to the level that the ash is at, and understandable if there was ash falling from the sky, a la Pompeii, :eek: but to ground helicopters too, which can quite legally fly around at 500' quite slowly in comparison to the big jets, just seems a bit of overkill to me, especially from where i'm sitting, I can see for over 10k easily. ;)

it's just someone somewhere afraid to say it's ok to go. :E

Well, it's made the security much easier for the live debate today..........

BBC News

Apart from the likelihood that it would have been a Royal Navy Sea King from HMS Gannet, how is the volcanic ash affecting other Rotorheads in Europe, as well as UK?

Not a helicopter man myself, but I would have thought that even if you are flying quite slowly your wings aren't. Would that be a cause for concern?

Surely if there is sufficient ash in the air to damage low level aircraft there is going to be horrendous health problems as this stuff gets into people's lungs?

But as the event is several hundred miles away surely all the particulate matter fell out a long way off and very little is falling from the high level dust cloud over UK?

Is this just more risk-averse overkill

With a proper particle separator/filter, I would not have expected volcanic ash to be any different to fly through than desert sand, bushfire smoke/embers, or any of the other conditions that are part and parcel of a helicopter pilot's life.

Not all of our machines have part seps, but there should be no reason why those that have, be prevented from flying: bearing in mind that the current NOTAM only restricts IFR flights.

How does this effect VFR Helicopter flights I was going to Ireland in a turbine on friday

Current NOTAM

Note: No IFR clearance

For Rolls Royce 250 operators, there is CSL 1095 (C20 series) issued for flying in volcanic ash.

In Norway they have closed the entire Norwegian airspace, even the SAR and HEMS are grounded!
The only SAR machine available now is the one at Svalbard....

This is kind of crazy!

"We are put back 50 years" is the headline:- Vi er satt 50 år tilbake i tid | ABC Nyheter
"Dramatic when the helicopter can't fly because of volcanic ash":
- Dramatisk når helikopteret ikkje får flyge på grunn av vulkanaske - Møre og Romsdal - NRK Nyhende

The airspace will open on friday, if not later.

"Volcanic ash is hard to detect from an aircraft, and is not visible on the weatherradar.
The most dangerous aspect is that the particles'(ash) meltingpoint is lower than the turbines' working-temp. This leads to the ash melting to a thick, lava-like fluid, that slowly floats into the engine and causing it to shut down.
The ashparticles are very hard, with sharp edges, effectively sand-blowing leading edges.
The windshields are most vulnerable, turning matte, and the pilot's loose visibility."

-From the Norwegian Meterological Institute.

Where I am, the weather is:
METAR 151120Z 02006KT 320V050 9999 FEW030 BKN055 09/02 Q1015

If there is such a danger involved in flying helicopters VFR, then the air should be so saturated with volcanic ash that it would be dangerous to stay outside without any protection (face-mask etc), wouldn't it????:eek:

All in line with the contingency plan - why try to double guess the experts?

http://www.paris.icao.int/documents_...ember_2009.pdf

Jim

To me closing the entire airspace is a CYA move. Best way to prevent accidents is to not let anybody fly..

However, like not all humidity and low temperatures are "icing conditions",there must be something about the concentration of ash particles that determines whether or not it becomes a safety hazard.

Flying VMC/VFR means you should be able to "see and avoid". To prevent the general public from flying VFR is something I can understand, but to totally ban SAR/HEMS on the basis of perceived safety/unsafety seems excessive.
Especially when helicopters are suited to land at the merest hint of (engine) trouble, with no doubt a highly alert crew under the circumstances.

But hey, I am just a pilot..apparently I cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions in todays PC world.

Jetstream forecasts show that the ash will be taken east and south away from UK. Turkey & Greece by Saturday.

Something you need to consider is the cover that will be provided under a warranty or service plan if engines are contaminated having flown against, prevailing advice. That is why I am grounded. There is no cover and a large bill could result.

Mick85, I understand.
For a commercial operator or a private hire certainly something to be taken very seriously.

But operations with the aim to aid those in peril, like SAR and HEMS have another cost/benefit analysis. Certainly the engines would suffer (how much? we don't really know as we know nothing about the concentration levels, especially at low altitudes) but would that be worth it if you can save a life?
Which does not mean you have to risk 3 to 6 lives to save one, but that is why a responsible crew should have the option of weighing the information and make sensible decisions. Mitigate the ever present risks is what it is all about.

I just think that blanket restrictions usually are very shortsighted and stupid.
And aviation seems to suffer more and more from them.

The Isle of Man has closed its airspace to ALL aircraft both VFR and IFR with a 12 mile radius of the coast.

Great for me but not so great for my Boss!

I am planning flying vfr London to Yorkshire this afternoon ....i am still not aware of any ban on vfr ???

Well ive just this minute come off the phone to Cardiff Tower and they are saying that VFR is ok, they have suggested I read Notam H902/10 issued this morning.

Just spoken to Maintenance Org to look at the Rolls Royce flight in volcanic dust advice and that basically says avoid it if you can but have more compressor washes and watch out for reduced power !!

The Thames Valley Police chopper is still flying as its hovering over the remains of the Cherwell Valley Services which has been generating its own plume for the last couple of hours http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...milies/eek.gif

Are we securing us to death?
 

I started to think about today's total ban of SAR and HEMS ops in Norway.

Where I am now, there's blue skies 360 degrees as long as you can see, but SAR and HEMS ops are grounded because of volcanic ash.
The reason is that they can't operate if IFR traffic isn't allowed. But now it's daylight and perfect VFR weather...

The society today is extremely safety-focused, and it's always "safety first". But are we fooling ourselves by beeing too cautious? What risk is involved in flying VFR at 2000ft when you can't even see trace of volcanic ash in the atmosphere? Are the SAR or HEMS crew at a great risk if they fly VFR now?
Surely, the pasients who would need help now won't get as fast to the hospital, and won't get a doctor out to the accident site. Not to mention if something happens offshore at an oil-platform, or to a ship...

Are we securing ourselves to death by jeapordising potential patients' security over something that maybe isn't that dangerous?
What if a train disaster happened up in a remote area now? I guess they would allow helicopters to assist, but there are quite a few accidents a day that are life/death situations depending on a rapid HEMS service. People don't decide NOT to get injured today or tomorrow...:ugh:

I clearly understand that IFR traffic may be dangerous because you don't know what you may fly into, but VFR...?

Is this the consequence of a "safety first" society? Where the most dangerous a kid can do is to put on his helmet, because he might get pinched by the strap-lock...?:bored:

It's not, and never has been, a "safety first" society.

It is however, an "I'll make sure I don't get sued for damages" society.:yuk:

Which is why such idiocy as a blanket ban on all flights gets imposed without any conscious thought. Wonder if the cause of death of people the coming days will be listed as "volcanic ash cloud" :ugh:

The world has gone barking mad - yes it is an excellent idea not to fly into a volcanic ash cloud but to stay on the ground when the weather is 8/8 blue is ridiculous.

The SARF is ops only at the moment and one has to wonder at the logic - if it is too dangerous to fly because of the ash then it is too dangerous to fly full stop. If it is safe to fly on SAROPs then it is safe to fly on training.

Our helos have a very splendid sandfilter/particle separator on the engines which is good enough for Afghanistan sand but not good enough for Icelandic ash!!!!!

All around the country, mil aircraft are being wheeled into hangars to protect them while the sun still shines brightly in the sky - talk about risk-averse decision making:ugh:

Where is Captain Sensible?
 

Of course you do not fly into any sort of debris....doh!

If debris is in cloud so you can't see it then you have to stay clear of cloud....doh!

If you can't guarantee being able to stay clear of cloud then don't fly.....doh!

but then NATS guy mentioned 'no flying in commercial airspace' on telly.....does that mean that if I'm parked within an ATZ then I can't take off - yet my farmstrip mate can?

The ASH is not a player at lower levels (as I rant)- will someone at NATS please grow some balls!!!!!!!

World has gone mad and lunatics have taken over.........

Read the effing NOTAM - vfr only

Volcano
 

So whats the crack with all this ash stuff then.. Looks like it could go on for days judging by the ashtam
:8:{

I presume the CAA are going into the 'starting volcanos market' cause that seems to be the best way of stopping the UK from flying. Something they have been trying to do for years.

been flying all day today not seen any ash can't see what the bother is and as at 1800 local north london was still blue skys is this stuff invisible or am i missing something?

Spoke to our maint org earlier and they said that Turbomeca, RR and P&W were all putting out advice not to fly and therefore so were they. With Battersea shut to most traffic it's a bit academic at the mo.

paradox :}:

Adrenaline helicopter tours in Iceland

Have had students asking if they can fly tomorrow. Although it will be a Hughes 300 and the sky is due to be clear, the dust that accumulated on my car tonight makes me wonder what would be happening to my blades. The blades have already lost the paint from normal clean air operation, who knows what wear they would experience during the 3 hours planned flying in potential grit filled air? Any views?
Im leaning towards NOT flying but would appreciate some back up or sensible advice.

HB999

Ash in Europe
 

Tango 123, this is a totally different mountain (Fimmvorduhals), this is just a mountain with lava and no ash at all, but this one today (Eyjafjallajokull) is way underneath a ice with a lot of ash. Just keep the fingers crossed that the next glacier east with the mountain Krafla doesnt start, there we are most likely talking about months !

The last time Eyjafjallajokull erupted, it lasted two years! Mind you, it was 1821 to 1823 ;)

Remember it well do you, Splot?

:E

HB999
 

I think that's a very reasonable request for advice under these abnormal circumstances and am surprised there haven't been more.

I'm actually on the other side of the world so I'm only reading about what is going on in Europe. My advice would be to exercise greater than normal caution in making that decision to fly. Obviously, if a restriction is placed on vfr flight in UK then the decision is taken away from you, but even lacking any flight restriction, if there is ash or thicker than normal dust settling on your car, I would have to consider what it would do to the air filter whilst airborne, or to the blades as you mentioned.

There seems to be some disgruntlement and disbelief at the caution being displayed by those in authority, maybe it is overkill, I don't know, however, sometimes we just have to accept that those decisions are made by fairly smart guys, being paid to make wise decisions for the benefit of most people.

You might ask your senior pilot for his advice, get some top cover. Or ask the person who is liable to pay for the repairs if any damage is caused.

These are abnormal conditions, it's a very reasonable cause for some concern.

Have a good flight......or not.

Tam

We have been flying around active Volcanoes here in Hawaii since the early eighties. They are still active and we are still flying.

I can understand the High go fast guys need to divert, but the Helo folk's standing down is a total Joke.

Here in the USA the operators tend to have the final say rather then the Govt.
But then again that is about to change with this New Administration's One World Order....

Um,

That is true. But in the early Day's (83 or 84) of the Mauna Loa eruptions which lasted many week's we continued flying up close and personal.

Mind you some of the operators did have turbine problems as well as pitted windshields and the occasional damaged blades from folks crossing down wind and to close to the eruption site.

What goes up, must come down.

This ash falls down so you will definitely encounter it at lower levels in not such a long time.

On a lighter note. I am thinking about starting an auction here. How much do you want to pay me for putting the plug back in the Eyjafjallajokull volcano? :cool:

NOTAMS
 

Got up at 04:30 this morning, checked the NOTAMS stating "NO IFR flights", got out to the airport to find out that the entire airport is closed even for VFR.
Looks like the entire airport staff decided to take a day off. :eek:

Take a good look in your engine maint manuals. This is from PWC.

J. Aircraft Flown through Volcanic Ash or Smoke.
(1) Do a compressor wash - performance recovery (Ref. Chapter 71-00-00, POWER
PLANT - CLEANING).
(2) Drain and refill the engine oil system (Ref. Chapter 72-00-00, ENGINE GENERALSERVICING).
(3) Replace the oil filter (Ref. Chapter 79-21-00, OIL SYSTEM (DISTRIBUTION)-
MAINTENANCE PRACTICE).
(4) Do a function check of the chip detector (Ref. Chapter 72-00-00, ENGINE
GENERAL-SERVICING).
(5) Inspect the compressor for damage (Ref. Chapter 72-00-00, ENGINE
GENERAL-INSPECTION).
(6) Do a power assurance check as per the Applicable Aircraft Manual.
(7) Drain and refill the engine oil system with new oil after 50 ±10 hour (Ref. Chapter

72-00-00, ENGINE GENERAL-SERVICING).