Scillies chopper going back in time
 

Does the move from PZ to Lands End Airport mean the end for the rather dubious Cat A Heliport departure and a return to more sensible Cat A clear area ops?

At 400 ft AMSL the IFR ops are going to be challenging. Wonder what the plan is? GPS? VOR/DME?

I seem to remember that the road to Lands End from PZ had a bit of a reputation for plenty of accidents. The increase in traffic will make it even more interesting.

I wonder what will happen if the rumour of moving the mainline railway from PZ to Falmouth becomes a reality? Will Scillonia follow suit? or... was it the other way around.

Well............ this is a rumour network..................

CK-D

If nothing else the WX issues alone will prove to be interesting.Lands End has a far worse weather record than the sheltered PZ heliport.A fohn effect I reckon.Not sure what minima the S61s operate to but when you can't see one end of the car park from the other it's all rather academic.Also wind.Whats the limit windspeed for rotor starting?As for future approaches (which will be non precision) with a 250 ft and a 350 ft - that's AAL by the way- hill within 1 km of the airfield minima are likely to be on the high side of ideal.A lot more in the way of hard surfaces will be required.Even a (gasp) runway?
All this will require a BIG upgrade to EGHC in every way and it will be great to see it .If it means the jobs of all (PZ and LEQ) are secured and hopefully more created then I wish it well.
Shame about the flying school and based private aircraft though.Can't there be a bit of a rethink here?I mean where do most of the Skybus pilots come from?What are AOPA going to say about one of their favourite airfields turning its back on GA?

GA at Lands End?
 

JailB

Are you saying that BIH arriving will mean somebody has to leave?? Surely not, I thought the idea was to share the running costs of the airport not take it over.

Of course this can't possibly be a scam for TJ et al to cash in on the sale of the heliport site can it? Do BIH own the ground or lease it? Could be one way of raising some much needed cash. Not so good timing though......... 6 months ago the market would have been bullish now selling property in PZ will be a touche less profitable. I think you would need about 28m Euro for a couple of new AW139s ........ pity about the £ going down the toilet, Still..... may be enough for a deposit.

CK-D

Penzance not closing?
 

Apparently Radio Scilly has reported that the helicopter is not going to move to Land's End this season. What happens after that no one knows.

It all seems a little odd with the heli operation going to Lands End. Surely they will have to price match now they are going to be in the same location as skybus? It must cost considerably more to run the heli than the islander, but if your a punter you will go with the cheapest price if they are based at the same location?

Lands End will never get a tarmac runway it has been done to death previously & I personally find it odd that they have booted out all the GA, told all the private a/c owners to find new hangarage & they are closing down the flying school, plus now planning to close the airport on Sundays! Surely there will not be enough funding to maintain the aerodrome let alone develop new facilities to help with IFR ops.

Operating the S61 from a grass strip
 

The S61 RFM says, if I recall correctly, that any grass surface used must be 'firm'. Well there were some pretty 'Nelsonian' views taken of places like North Denes I seem to remember and PZ was at least well drained but what of Lands End? Will the EASA era bring with it an end to casting a blind eye over such things? I'm not entirely sure that the original CAA Cat A increased AUM (from 19,000 to 20,500) actually envisaged operating from grass at that higher mass. We did of course, but that's another thing entirely.

Anyone have any more accurate recollections?

C.K-D

No accurate recollections but all I know is that every grass part of Lands End becomes water logged in the winter months & they have to reduce the serviceable areas inc runways/parking quite considerably.

It will be interesting to see what improvements they need to make to the airfield in order to operate the S61, however it seems that apart from the skybus there will be less trafic due to the elimination of GA so not sure where the funding will come from!

So S61 operation now staying at penzance for this year at least

Scilly flights will stay at Penzance for 2009

S61 Ops
 

Just for info, Penzance has an IF approach valid only for Co aircraft. It is GPS based, height against distance to run. However, the approach requires use of the NDB based the heliport, cross-referencing against radials and DME from Lands End VOR and also identification of the very prominent coastal swimming pool on the aircraft radar. It is probably one of the most complicated approaches in the world. It sounds Mickey Mouse but in practice works very well - I regularly flew six a day. It has been around for many years, using Decca before GPS. The minima are 350'/900 metres.

Max wind speed for rotor engagement on the S61 is 50 knots although there is a diagram limiting that according to wind relative to the aircraft heading. Not a problem at Penzance, rarely a problem even in windy Sumburgh, unlikely to be much of one at Lands End.

The fixed wing have long priced their seats somewhere just below the helicopter so have always had a price advantage. Monster profit for an Islander. One of the helicopter advantages is that it can carry 25 pax, with seats for thirty with children keeping the weight down against 8 for the Islander and 18 for the Twotter. It can be loaded/off-loaded/refueled rotors running which means very speedy turn-rounds.

There are no IFR ops from Lands End but that doesn't mean that there never will be. The helicopter does have an IF approach into St Marys on Scillies again based on GPS, Lands end VOR/DME and the Scillies beacon.

Every part of Lands End does not become water-logged in wet weather. I carried out a 61 conversion Penzance in winter '76, typical Cornish wet winter. Rejects (at least 90% of MAUW) were carried out at Lands End without any problems.

Its worth bearing in mind that if the company can no longer make a profit at Penzance due to having to fund an airfield out of its own profits and facing steep increases in spares annually, it must do something. Further, any problem raised in this column is likely to have been considered by the company and they still feel its worth moving.

Why should selling the heliport be called a scam? If you own something you have every right to sell it if you wish and if its a good business move. How better to raise money (admittedly not right now) for new aircraft?

Boslandew, are you on BI's board of directors or something! If Lands End is so good why did BEA move the operation to the heliport in 1964-5? Of course the owners have the right to sell the heliport having claimed it is losing money but it is more than a shame to close a unique facility like that in exchange for a one off wad of cash. The fact is, operating from sea level is bound to be more reliable than trying to do the same from 401ft amsl with Cornish gale-force fog (= low stratus).

Perhaps?
 

Goat,
Perhaps the potential cash represents a bridge of sorts for BI, in order to enable the company to continue the operation until better economic conditions exsist?
The uniqueness of the East Green heliport will provide cold comfort if the operation has to cut costs or staff to remain functional.
Change in this industry is often sadly inevitable, and we are all left to sort through the resultant debris. There have been other helicopter airlines once upon a very long time past.
It may not represent the 'best' way forward, but it may well be the only way to survive?
cheers
:ok:

Penzance Heliport
 

Nuada

Thank you for a thoughtful reply

Fagins Goat

Just for the record, no, I'm not on the BI board, merely, as I made clear, an ex-employee.

In my entry, I was hoping to make clear some of the facts. I did not expect, in an aviation thread, to have to make them all. Of course sea-level operations are easier than those from an airfield at 400'. There are many points in favour of remaining at Penzance, not the least being road/rail access.

However, the company made a loss last year due to a drop in pax numbers, the enormous annual increase in the cost of spares for an ageing aircraft and the cost of operating an airfield (the heliport) solely from its own profits. It can do little about the first, nothing about the second but it can do something about the third.

Operations from Lands End will not be as easy as from Penzance. However, each flight will save some ten minutes round trip flight time. Five flights, roughly, can be made from Lands End for the flight time required of four flights from Penzance, a considerable saving. Lower fuel loads will raise pax loads by 1 or 2 pax, an increase of 4-8% in revenue.

Here's the question. Does the company remain at the heliport with its obvious advantages and go slowly (perhaps rapidly) broke or does it move to another airfield where it can share the airfield costs and where, it has clearly calculated, with the advantage of having all the facts, it can remain in profit.

Certainly Penzance Heliport is a (not quite) unique facility. However, lets be business-like. The company is faced with making a continuing loss partly through operating from there. It owns the heliport. It needs considerable funds to replace its ageing fleet. The likely replacements, the S92 or Westlands Heliliner are very expensive. While sale and closure may be a 'shame' - is that a business term - to close the heliport after 45 years, it probably offers the only way forward for the helicopter service to the Scillies.

I am trying hard to look at both sides of the argument

BIH Penzance?
 

I may have missed this one - apologies.
I have heard from a couple of independent sources that:
(a) BIH have moved out of Penzance to a non descript private airstrip on the North Cornwall coast.
(b) BIH have since gone into administration.

Anyone shed any light on these rumours please?:(

Ta.

TC,

I can confirm that the helicopters are flying normally in and out of the Penzance Heliport and that BIH is very definitely not in administration.

I know that this is a rumour network, but completely inaccurate posts like this can have an effect on people's livelihoods and I hope that the mods will remove it asap.

RHRP

Fair's fair - TC's information isn't too far off.

British International Helicopters Ltd (previous directors Kevin & Ian Maxwell :eek:) is indeed, in Administration and has been for many years.

However, British International Helicopter Services Ltd which operates the flights appears to be doing grand.

Cheers

Whirls

RHRP wind your neck in son and calm down. :ugh:

Whirly: Hows tricks?

Whats the link between the two and I most certainly heard correctly from a reliable source that they saw the cabs flying in and out of Perranporth I think it was?
I have also heard from an inside source in Bournemouth that several staff are on compulsory leave, there?

Perranporth?
 

The 61's are still flying as usual from Penzance, I saw them today (just about) through the misty/haze en-route to the Scillies....

Aren't BIH a main player in one of the SAR-H bidders?

At one stage, at least, I believe that BIH used the legal entity of Veritair to operate using the pre-existing Veritair AOC. [I am guessing but this might be about the time that Maxwell's empire went down the tubes]. Essentially, they bought the then Veritair Ltd for its AOC (presumably from Julian Verity). The name was something like Veritair Ltd (BIH t/a): they traded that way for a number of years. Since then, Veritair Cardiff has "spun off" from that legal entity and trades separately. I guess the Welsh bit have set up another similarly named company and are doing their own thing.

Is there any sign of that original Veritair company having gone bust?

Yo TC :ok: Let's face it - anything that involved the Maxwells is still worthy of gossip. :p

Would that be a Welsh rare-bit? :} Called Veritair Aviation Ltd; a relatively newly-formed company.

Veritair Ltd changed its name to British International Helicopter Services Ltd so is still going under the same legal entity.

Cheers

Whirls

TC
if your going to start rumours up you ought to make sure that your reliable source (you think) has got their information right. Maybe they got an R22 mixed up with a 61!

trex450: if the source and information was correct - it wouldn't be a rumour then would it? And I wouldn't be repeating it on this rumour network would I?
Duh! :ugh:

BIH are in liquidation, company renamed after Maxwell fiasco and now BI. Who are in the bidding for SARH

Not strictly true; see posts #3 and #8. BIH Ltd is still in administration (not quite the same as liquidation) and is still called BIH Ltd.

The company that was renamed was Veritair Ltd to become the current British International Helicopter Services Ltd, the company now commonly known as British International.

Cheers

Whirls

Penzance heliport sale to Sainsbury
 

BBC News - Isles of Scilly helicopter link firm 'to sell heliport'

"...It said the move was necessary because the route had been losing money for years and the new base would help cut journey times and save money...."

Mmm the move would cut atleast 3 minutes off the journey down to Lands End instead of Penzance from Bristol say.

It's going to be Newquay isn't it. No contest. Newquay International would welcome this service with open arms. Trouble is, could BIH afford the charges from this new airport. Catchment area is far better.

three minutes a time multiplied by the amount of times that aircraft flies per year would be significant to any accountant.
If it accumulates 1750 hours per year flying and the trips are 20 minutes each way, a three minute saving equates to a flight time saving of 131.25 hours per year. And I am not even an accountant. :8

Trouble is, could BIH afford the charges from this new airport.
 

What makes you think it's expensive? Lots of advantages in operating from Newquay despite the longer route to the Scillies.

I'm sure it will work from Lands End because they won't reduce the fares!!
But from Newquay??
Yep, ILS available, but the flight time plus at least 25 mins... that would make the fare non competitive with fixed plank from Lands End surely?
Good luck selling that one TJ... :ok:

Pretty good of TC to get this as a rumour on Dec 9th last though wasn't it? He got royally rogered for it I see as I look back up the threads! Must have been in the later stages of planning at that point?

Well done TC :ok:

Do you want his babies?:ok:

Or don't make him anymore bigheaded than he is already:p

all rise for TC

as in "stand up" I assume you meant?

Our TC ain't just a pretty face :}

Cheers

Whirls

Every cloud has a silver lining.........
 

At least I won't have to travel all the way to Truro to do some decent shopping.

So what is the chance of Cornwall council planning permission department letting the heliport go in exchange for another supermarket?

Given that Eastern Green is, I believe, zoned for retail rather than residential development, the odds are pretty good, notwithstanding this will create a third supermarket within a kilometer stretch.

Giggles...
 

I am sure it will no doubt please both Tesco and Morrisons as well?

:rolleyes:

Interesting development with this BIH announcement:

It is also reported separately that BIH has announced it will be operating an aircraft engineering centre by the end of the year, but nothing on where pax will fly from.

Connections between the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, The Russian Federation and FIFA are ongoing. Answers on the back of a brown paper envelope containing lots of any reputable currency are welcome.