"Unauthorised" air ambulance landing
 

Just wondered if anyone has seen this?

Air ambulance sent to save unconscious rider is ordered off £9bn sheik's estate | Mail Online

Allowing a modicum of sceptism for Dail Mail reporting, it raises an interesting dilemma.

Hypothetically (i.e. not refering to this particualr instance), should an air ambulance attending an emergency land without landowner's permission?

In other words, what is the trade off between observing the law and saving life?

(To be clear, I am an amateur aeroplane pilot, so will not face this dilemma, it just strikes me as a tough one.)

On this specific case, you need to read the story to get past the headline - looks like you have to have been there to tell whether this was reasonable or not (and I appreciate I've altered the story by selective quoting...).

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On the general point, I would have assumed the law would allow access to save life/prevent serious injury (rights of the injured override the life of the land owner), but can anybody clarify?

What they going to be done for? Trespass? Not in this country they're not.

Is it not the case that members of the emergency services and certain utility company employee's are allowed to enter/onto private land in order to save life or property or for the protection of the public? Who tasked the AA?

Best Wishes

he does not have a problem when one of his jockeys gets injured does he ?

wonder what would happen if he is is ever needing a AA and that crew turn up and go away because of landing problems

With that much money he's probably got his own fleet of air ambulances waiting to rush him off to his own private hospital.

What an arrogant gentleman! (referring to the person who ordered the helicopter to leave site)

I know there are people on this forum with space to land on their property who would more than welcome an Air Ambulance touching down unannounced.

Agincourt - you are correct about utilities - you can land in the vicinity of the pipeline if you see something untoward but I think technically its already 'agreed' with the landowner owner in the original contract from when the pipeline was laid.

As far as Im aware - if you're landing an Air Ambulance with the view to saving life then the rule of seeking permission before hand doesn't apply. Im guessing that as a courtesy any damage is put right?

bonkers,

But unlike you, he may well get his facts before making judgements.

Disgraceful (and I fully identify with isues relating to the sheiks personal security etc) but if I'd been the para medic I would have cut the fence and told the security guy where to shove it.

I'm sure someone knows the law better than me, but I'm certain, you can land anywhere in this country to save a life!

Joel

Hopefully when this gets to the top it'll result in security staff in the sh!t and a donation the the AA trust.

The relevant question is whether the landing area referred to by the security guard is marked on charts.

If not, and the helo crew carried out a recce prior to landing, their actions would appear to have been entirely reasonable.
If it was, and no attempt was made to find a working frequency, then a re-brief might be in order.

In any event, it sets an unfortunate precedent to start putting obstacles in the way of those who are only trying to do a valuable job.

CD

The security guard was also doing his job...whats the problem

Seems to me that somebody (press) is making an elephant out of a mosquito. Also, the medical team spoke to the guards and not the pilot.

I guess if the person would have been in a life threatening condition they would have told the security guards to get lost and continued their work.

What's being discussed by some ("rich dude kicks out life savers, OMG lynch him!") is exactly what headlines like these are trying to provoke.

I know this location well ! There are a couple of other considerations not mentioned ( quite rightly ) in the article, it would also appear that the journo also did very little research on this.
Notwithstanding the need to save life , the "security person" I feel acted properly, thats my view knowing I would not wish to call unannounced by air with a pair of bolt croppers, after all a first responder was alredy on location.

Not knowing the full story, and after all, its a daily paper, life takes precedence. If the gentleman concerned doesn't like it then go somewhere else.:*

What law says you got to get a landowner's permission to land, emergency or no emergency?

Where's the law written?

Law or urban myth? :confused:


B.

Doesn't it state in the FAR (as in FAA, your location says New York City) that you need the land owners permission?

If I recall correctly it also says in the FAR that you can deviate from any regulation in an emergency such as to save somebodies life. Now I know that this didn't happen in FAA country and that EMS services have their own rules and might not count as "emergency", but there might be something similar in the UK regs.

Then on the other side of the pond in Germany, one of the most restrictive countries for flying Helicopters, there is article 25 of their regulations (LuftVG) that says you can land anywhere for the sake of safety or helping somebody or if life and limb is in danger. This is also valid for taking off again, so you can leave without being held back. All you have to do is to leave your details and your insurance details with the landlord.

Bronx

In the UK, The Air Navigation Order 2005 (S.I. 2005 No 2005/1970) and The Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 (S.I. 1996 No 1393) as amended.

I am not familiar with exceptions for emergencies.

Where do you draw your reference from?

Now Hold On Here!
 

There are a lot of vague statements being made around here by folks quoting or referencing obscure documents, regulations, and "law" re landing in any old place. It would be nice if folks would cite specific references they think apply to the situation rather than offer up vague recollections of what some source may have probably suggested.

One example...

Just where in the US FAR's does that statement come from. Give us a cut and paste of the wording...and the reference for that.

Ask yourself if the definition of "Emergency" as used by the FAA in the FAR's applies to the everyday conduct of EMS helicopter operations? Then, provide us the citation of the source you are using to make that claim please.

Now if you begin to use the FAR/AIM (Airman's Information Manual) as a reference you should also read what it says about it being a reference and accumulation of "recommeded practices" and the admonition those same practices do not carry the weight of rule or law.

The UK Air Law appeared to grant far more leeway in the accetable actions by pilots during "Life Saving" efforts than does the US FAR's.

Perhaps we could get Flying Lawyer to compare and contrast that for us if it would not be a violation of legal standards in the UK for him to do so.

Final 3 Greens Before we get on to any exceptions for emergencies and suchlike - where in the Air Navigation Order 2005 or the Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 does it say a landowner's permission is required before a helicopter can land?

Hold on fella. I'm saying there's no such law in England.
You are the one saying there is.

Where do you draw your reference from?

Trespass I believe has been done away with in the UK. So safe there.

The only question is whether the idea of saving or preserving lives in the ANO context (aircraft, crew, passengers and any potential casualties resulting from an aircraft malfunction or emergency situation where members of the public and property is at risk) extends to the role of the air ambulance service.

Besides, the aircraft commander can depart from ANO if he feels it is justifiable to do so. Perhaps he would have to defend such actions at a later date but I think and sincerely hope that any sober court in the UK would overthrow any claim against the Air Ambulance acting improperly if it performed its task safely.