"Unauthorised" air ambulance landing
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"Unauthorised" air ambulance landing
Just wondered if anyone has seen this?
Air ambulance sent to save unconscious rider is ordered off £9bn sheik's estate | Mail Online
Allowing a modicum of sceptism for Dail Mail reporting, it raises an interesting dilemma.
Hypothetically (i.e. not refering to this particualr instance), should an air ambulance attending an emergency land without landowner's permission?
In other words, what is the trade off between observing the law and saving life?
(To be clear, I am an amateur aeroplane pilot, so will not face this dilemma, it just strikes me as a tough one.)
Air ambulance sent to save unconscious rider is ordered off £9bn sheik's estate | Mail Online
Allowing a modicum of sceptism for Dail Mail reporting, it raises an interesting dilemma.
Hypothetically (i.e. not refering to this particualr instance), should an air ambulance attending an emergency land without landowner's permission?
In other words, what is the trade off between observing the law and saving life?
(To be clear, I am an amateur aeroplane pilot, so will not face this dilemma, it just strikes me as a tough one.)
On this specific case, you need to read the story to get past the headline - looks like you have to have been there to tell whether this was reasonable or not (and I appreciate I've altered the story by selective quoting...).
.
On the general point, I would have assumed the law would allow access to save life/prevent serious injury (rights of the injured override the life of the land owner), but can anybody clarify?
The stunned crew of an air ambulance were ordered off the estate of a billionaire sheik after landing there to rescue an unconscious horse rider
The sheik is fifth on Forbes magazine’s global ‘rich list’ with a £9billon fortune. His head of security confirmed the helicopter had landed, saying: ‘It just plonked down outside the house, landing on private ground without permission, and that was the issue. Aircraft can’t just fly in like that. I understand it was an emergency, but they should have notified us. We have people working in the grounds, including gardeners, and if they have protective earphones on they can’t hear anything. It could have landed on top of someone, or there could have been other aircraft coming into the estate – we do have a landing area here. One guard was relaying back to me what was going on as I was in the control room. I told the guard to tell them to contact me direct, but before we could sort it out they just took off again.
We don’t have a problem with the air ambulance landing here or cutting the fence. They’ve done it before, but we do need to be notified first. Sheik Al Maktoum wasn’t here at the time, but even so it sparks a panic if an aircraft suddenly appears on your lawn.’
We don’t have a problem with the air ambulance landing here or cutting the fence. They’ve done it before, but we do need to be notified first. Sheik Al Maktoum wasn’t here at the time, but even so it sparks a panic if an aircraft suddenly appears on your lawn.’
An air ambulance spokeswoman said: ‘We landed on Sheik Al Maktoum’s estate and were prepared to cut the fence and guards did approach the crew. But at that point we received a radio message saying that the patient wasn’t as badly injured as we thought. The medical team had a discussion with the guards and a decision was taken to move the helicopter.’
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Is it not the case that members of the emergency services and certain utility company employee's are allowed to enter/onto private land in order to save life or property or for the protection of the public? Who tasked the AA?
Best Wishes
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he does not have a problem when one of his jockeys gets injured does he ?
wonder what would happen if he is is ever needing a AA and that crew turn up and go away because of landing problems
wonder what would happen if he is is ever needing a AA and that crew turn up and go away because of landing problems
With that much money he's probably got his own fleet of air ambulances waiting to rush him off to his own private hospital.
What an arrogant gentleman! (referring to the person who ordered the helicopter to leave site)
I know there are people on this forum with space to land on their property who would more than welcome an Air Ambulance touching down unannounced.
Agincourt - you are correct about utilities - you can land in the vicinity of the pipeline if you see something untoward but I think technically its already 'agreed' with the landowner owner in the original contract from when the pipeline was laid.
As far as Im aware - if you're landing an Air Ambulance with the view to saving life then the rule of seeking permission before hand doesn't apply. Im guessing that as a courtesy any damage is put right?
What an arrogant gentleman! (referring to the person who ordered the helicopter to leave site)
I know there are people on this forum with space to land on their property who would more than welcome an Air Ambulance touching down unannounced.
Agincourt - you are correct about utilities - you can land in the vicinity of the pipeline if you see something untoward but I think technically its already 'agreed' with the landowner owner in the original contract from when the pipeline was laid.
As far as Im aware - if you're landing an Air Ambulance with the view to saving life then the rule of seeking permission before hand doesn't apply. Im guessing that as a courtesy any damage is put right?
Last edited by misterbonkers; 11th Jan 2009 at 10:43. Reason: To keep pulse1 happy because he may feel I DIDNT read the previous posts before making random comments and I just wanted to clarify any confusion that may arise.
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Disgraceful (and I fully identify with isues relating to the sheiks personal security etc) but if I'd been the para medic I would have cut the fence and told the security guy where to shove it.
I'm sure someone knows the law better than me, but I'm certain, you can land anywhere in this country to save a life!
Joel
I'm sure someone knows the law better than me, but I'm certain, you can land anywhere in this country to save a life!
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The relevant question is whether the landing area referred to by the security guard is marked on charts.
If not, and the helo crew carried out a recce prior to landing, their actions would appear to have been entirely reasonable.
If it was, and no attempt was made to find a working frequency, then a re-brief might be in order.
In any event, it sets an unfortunate precedent to start putting obstacles in the way of those who are only trying to do a valuable job.
CD
If not, and the helo crew carried out a recce prior to landing, their actions would appear to have been entirely reasonable.
If it was, and no attempt was made to find a working frequency, then a re-brief might be in order.
In any event, it sets an unfortunate precedent to start putting obstacles in the way of those who are only trying to do a valuable job.
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Seems to me that somebody (press) is making an elephant out of a mosquito. Also, the medical team spoke to the guards and not the pilot.
I guess if the person would have been in a life threatening condition they would have told the security guards to get lost and continued their work.
What's being discussed by some ("rich dude kicks out life savers, OMG lynch him!") is exactly what headlines like these are trying to provoke.
An air ambulance spokeswoman said: ‘We landed on Sheik Al Maktoum’s estate and were prepared to cut the fence and guards did approach the crew.
‘But at that point we received a radio message saying that the patient wasn’t as badly injured as we thought. The medical team had a discussion with the guards and a decision was taken to move the helicopter.’
‘But at that point we received a radio message saying that the patient wasn’t as badly injured as we thought. The medical team had a discussion with the guards and a decision was taken to move the helicopter.’
What's being discussed by some ("rich dude kicks out life savers, OMG lynch him!") is exactly what headlines like these are trying to provoke.
I know this location well ! There are a couple of other considerations not mentioned ( quite rightly ) in the article, it would also appear that the journo also did very little research on this.
Notwithstanding the need to save life , the "security person" I feel acted properly, thats my view knowing I would not wish to call unannounced by air with a pair of bolt croppers, after all a first responder was alredy on location.
Notwithstanding the need to save life , the "security person" I feel acted properly, thats my view knowing I would not wish to call unannounced by air with a pair of bolt croppers, after all a first responder was alredy on location.
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Hypothetically (i.e. not refering to this particualr instance), should an air ambulance attending an emergency land without landowner's permission?
In other words, what is the trade off between observing the law and saving life?
In other words, what is the trade off between observing the law and saving life?
As far as Im aware - if you're landing an Air Ambulance with the view to saving life then the rule of seeking permission before hand doesn't apply.
Where's the law written?
Law or urban myth?
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Originally Posted by Bronx
What law says you got to get a landowner's permission to land, emergency or no emergency?
Good practice for sure, but is it a law?
If so where is it written?
Law or urban myth?
Good practice for sure, but is it a law?
If so where is it written?
Law or urban myth?
If I recall correctly it also says in the FAR that you can deviate from any regulation in an emergency such as to save somebodies life. Now I know that this didn't happen in FAA country and that EMS services have their own rules and might not count as "emergency", but there might be something similar in the UK regs.
Then on the other side of the pond in Germany, one of the most restrictive countries for flying Helicopters, there is article 25 of their regulations (LuftVG) that says you can land anywhere for the sake of safety or helping somebody or if life and limb is in danger. This is also valid for taking off again, so you can leave without being held back. All you have to do is to leave your details and your insurance details with the landlord.
Last edited by Runway101; 11th Jan 2009 at 13:53.
Now Hold On Here!
There are a lot of vague statements being made around here by folks quoting or referencing obscure documents, regulations, and "law" re landing in any old place. It would be nice if folks would cite specific references they think apply to the situation rather than offer up vague recollections of what some source may have probably suggested.
One example...
Just where in the US FAR's does that statement come from. Give us a cut and paste of the wording...and the reference for that.
Ask yourself if the definition of "Emergency" as used by the FAA in the FAR's applies to the everyday conduct of EMS helicopter operations? Then, provide us the citation of the source you are using to make that claim please.
Now if you begin to use the FAR/AIM (Airman's Information Manual) as a reference you should also read what it says about it being a reference and accumulation of "recommeded practices" and the admonition those same practices do not carry the weight of rule or law.
The UK Air Law appeared to grant far more leeway in the accetable actions by pilots during "Life Saving" efforts than does the US FAR's.
Perhaps we could get Flying Lawyer to compare and contrast that for us if it would not be a violation of legal standards in the UK for him to do so.
One example...
If I recall correctly it also says in the FAR that you can deviate from any regulation in an emergency such as to save somebodies life.
Ask yourself if the definition of "Emergency" as used by the FAA in the FAR's applies to the everyday conduct of EMS helicopter operations? Then, provide us the citation of the source you are using to make that claim please.
Now if you begin to use the FAR/AIM (Airman's Information Manual) as a reference you should also read what it says about it being a reference and accumulation of "recommeded practices" and the admonition those same practices do not carry the weight of rule or law.
The UK Air Law appeared to grant far more leeway in the accetable actions by pilots during "Life Saving" efforts than does the US FAR's.
Perhaps we could get Flying Lawyer to compare and contrast that for us if it would not be a violation of legal standards in the UK for him to do so.
Last edited by SASless; 11th Jan 2009 at 14:45.
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Final 3 Greens
Before we get on to any exceptions for emergencies and suchlike - where in the Air Navigation Order 2005 or the Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 does it say a landowner's permission is required before a helicopter can land?
Hold on fella. I'm saying there's no such law in England.
You are the one saying there is.
Where do you draw your reference from?
In the UK, The Air Navigation Order 2005 (S.I. 2005 No 2005/1970) and The Rules of the Air Regulations 1996 (S.I. 1996 No 1393) as amended.
I am not familiar with exceptions for emergencies.
I am not familiar with exceptions for emergencies.
Where do you draw your reference from?
You are the one saying there is.
Where do you draw your reference from?
Last edited by Bronx; 11th Jan 2009 at 15:00.
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Trespass I believe has been done away with in the UK. So safe there.
The only question is whether the idea of saving or preserving lives in the ANO context (aircraft, crew, passengers and any potential casualties resulting from an aircraft malfunction or emergency situation where members of the public and property is at risk) extends to the role of the air ambulance service.
Besides, the aircraft commander can depart from ANO if he feels it is justifiable to do so. Perhaps he would have to defend such actions at a later date but I think and sincerely hope that any sober court in the UK would overthrow any claim against the Air Ambulance acting improperly if it performed its task safely.
The only question is whether the idea of saving or preserving lives in the ANO context (aircraft, crew, passengers and any potential casualties resulting from an aircraft malfunction or emergency situation where members of the public and property is at risk) extends to the role of the air ambulance service.
Besides, the aircraft commander can depart from ANO if he feels it is justifiable to do so. Perhaps he would have to defend such actions at a later date but I think and sincerely hope that any sober court in the UK would overthrow any claim against the Air Ambulance acting improperly if it performed its task safely.