From what I've heard about the flight profile, it makes me wonder if they knew and understood the AFCS / Autopilot and how it functioned....

AW 139 down in Abu Dhabi
 

I did not personnely seen the tape, i`m not anymore in Abu Dhabi but i still
have somes very reliables contacts overthere, from what they told me, the
helicopter was clear on take off to 1500 fts for a West departure, wich is the
normal departure for helicopters heading offshore, they busted 1500 and went up to 2000 fts, they never really maintained a strait and level flight up to a point where they started a steep descent at low airspeed, someone mentionned 40 kts in a previous thread, they crashed near Futaisi Island wich is about 18 miles west of Abu Dhabi and is a waypoint on the West departure and on all helicopters GPS of the company. You`ve seen the photo, you can tell that there was almost no forward airspeed when they chashed, the rotorhead with the blades still attached to it, is sitting right next to what`s left of the fuselage.

AW 139 down in Abu Dhabi
 

hello to everybody,

maybe my question is inoportune, I don't know ADA at all: is it legaly possible for a Captain have a pax straped in the cockpit, leave the COP in the back, and still go on with the flight without concerning about SOP and insurance?:*

maeroda, italy

AW 139 down in Abu Dhabi
 

No it is not legal, in the UAE, only a medevac can be done VFR at night, all
other flight should be IFR and IFR require 2 IFR rated pilots in their respective
seat, now one thing that i`ve been told was that J.Hanley was the Captain of the flight but was initially in the copilot seat and Obaid, the National, was the copilot for that flight, i do not know if Obaid was a qualified captain or not, but he was on the Captain seat, Sheik Al Nayan got in the front while
J.Hanley was outside in the back loading the 2 other pax , he went back to the front to try to get back to his seat, but apparently the Sheik wanted to stay in the front, due to the hight rank of Sheik Al Nayan (he was the brother of President of the UAE), John went relutanctely in the back with the other VIP.

This tragedy begs the question....."How does one say "No!" to a customer?"

Sometimes it is very, very, difficult....and will probably end your employment.

I did ride in the cabin of a Sikorsky S-76 while two Iraqi pilots I had given Conversion training to drove us around for an hour. It was done as a sign of confidence to them regarding their demonstrated performance during training. Actually, it was probably one of the least wise things I have done in my life. Now if my ex-wife had been available.....hmmmmmmm!

AW 139 down in Abu Dhabi
 

I agree with SASless, it is sometime difficult to say no and that is even more true in the UAE, as ADA is more or less a government company, the
biggests shareholders are members in the highests ranks of the government and the Royal Family, to say no may be the end of your career in the country, however, there is time where it is better to say no and loose your job, instead of loosing your life, i`m sure this accident will serve as a lesson and new rules will take place at least in the UAE, to prevent this type of accident to happen again, but it remain to be seen where the blame will fall,
either J.Hanley will be blame for it or either, nothing will come out and they will try to hide everything.

Blame
 

Yes there was fault in John Hanley's decision, but When the presidents brother jumps in the front and probably demanded to fly what is John to do. If he were to pull rank and make an ass of the Shiek then his career would have been over in UAE. As his son I wish he would have put the Shiek in his place and found another job. At least he would be alive along with the rest of the crew! He will be dearly missed along with the other passengers. Condolences from the Hanley family to all who have lost their loved ones in this tragic event.

John T. Hanley

yep it is very unfortunate, but with such a high profile chap on board, every one know's out here in the vvip circuit, you say no once and you have your plane ticket back home in 24 hr's.
gossip on the grape vine, and I am willing to be corrected, because of the high profile accident the orders from above is that the accident will not be investigated. my condolences to the families.
fluffy

Did not a high ranking, non rated person land an S3 Viking onboard an aircraft carrier off the coasts of california several years ago?

I’ve always felt the best way to honor those lost in an accident is to use the lessons to keep others from the same fate.
If I can be of assistance honoring John, please advise.

Very Sad. My condolences to the families.

If the CFIT holds true as a root cause(still an assumption) it will still be contributed to the over 80% human factor related accidnets in Aviation.
I agree; it is very difficult to say no in such cases. It was probably difficult for Captain J.Hanley to ask the low time copilot to go sit in the back instead of him so he can assume control of the Aircraft in the cockpit as a required crewmember. Who knows what had exactly happend!!

I know there are those who say we should not even discuss any accident until the full investigation is over, and man, I almost hate to weigh-in on this thing. But as a long-time pilot I can't resist offering my thoughts.

What helipilot214 says is true: Who knows what happened! I think we can be fairly sure of only one or two things: 1) John was not sitting way in the back, seat reclined, feet up, not a care in the world. I'd be willing to bet real money that he was right there, between the pilot seats, "coaching" them as third crewmember. I know I would have been.

Secondly, it was *not* CFIT, that much is obvious. The term implies that the aircraft was under control up to the point of impact. But the 139's contact with the water was surely not "controlled." If they hit at such an apparently low forward speed, then neither of the two "pilots" had control of anything, certainly not the airspeed and absolutely not the altitude.

It's a very sad accident if what is alleged is true. We can only wonder after the fact what any of us would have done in a similar situation. (For the record, I often fly over dark-dark areas at night with my unrated boss. He sometimes wants to "take the stick" and see what flying in such conditions is like. I always decline, sometimes forcefully, because I don't want the possibility of him putting us into an attitude from which recovery would be difficult even for me. He grumbles and complains, but it's just too damn bad and it tests my skills of diplomacy to the max, as many of you out there can undoubtedly sympathize.)

Is it fortunate or unfortunate I have very limited amounts of "tact and diplomacy"? (Like none really!)

I made it a rule that upon saying "No".....the more someone up the greasy pole of management tried to coerce me into flying....the more adamant and less tactful I became about stating I would not fly.

At one location I told the CP...."The keys are in it....you're wearing your bars....have at it big boy!" The CP told another pilot to take my co-pilot and aircraft and get flying. The shock on the CP's face when the Co-pilot said...."If my Captain doesn't go....I won't go!" was very amusing to all but the CP.

Being single, having no children, and being debt free made it a lot easier stick my neck out on those very few occasions when job security was at risk for saying "No".

Good vibs
He did not land the machine. Only flew in cruise for a short while.

This thread is about the sad demise of a truly good man. Your name should be classless.

Zip,

Point out where I criticized anyone or made any suggestion as to the cause of the accident?

i have addressed my remarks to the pressure pilots experience to fly when they are confronted by employers or passengers refusing to take "No" for an answer.

Each of us at some point have been confronted with that situation and have made our own decisions as to how to handle the problem. Just as in other aspects of flying, we make our decisions and then have to bear the results.

I would suggest this thread discusses an extreme case of just such an event. The amount of pressure John was under must have been very intense. For there to have been such a tragic outcome makes it all the more heart breaking.

No reason to argue guys
 

I am John's son. I will miss him dearly. I know all of you have different thoughts and opinions regarding this unfortunate situation, and that's what is good about freedom and liberty. You are able to speak your mind and have your own opinions. I have been watching this forum daily and have no ill will to anyone who has commented. I am not a pilot, I chose to make a living in the natural gas transportation business, so much of what is said here I have no clue.... (Acronym's) etc. I do know this.... Although it is most likely to happen in the future under different circumstances (loss of life) I want you all to know that if there is anything to be learned from this accident please apply it to your moral and proffesional decisions. You guys and gals serve a very important purpose in this world. Some of you may feel it is just a job to pay the bills, but you are all very skilled individuals. Please be safe and learn from others mistakes. I just hate that you have to learn from my fathers. I wish you all the best as my father would and hope not to here of anything like this in the future..... Happy flying.

John T. Hanley
[email protected]
210-882-7522
Texas

After having worked here in the ME for 8 years I can tell you this... John would have been under extreme pressure to give up his seat. His thoughts in those few moments would have been dominated by fear of losing his job, security, family et al, and when you are faced with a situation like that you WILL relinquish... Hindsight is a wonderful thing and with that particular crystal ball to hand I wish (IF THE BACK SEAT THEORY IS PROVED CORRECT) he would have shaiked the hand, bowed gracefully and kept walking all the way back to the security of his smokers seat near the hangar and gracefully watched the superior departure... :(

Where does one get training on how to handle a situation like this diplomatically? That is, keep the job, but don't compromise on safety?
Are there any good examples of how to do this?
Should we start another thread on this subject?

I'm feel not very sad about John, he was part from the Management and did the same to another employs, when somebody refused to do a flight, so are give John only one way, you do the job or you are fired. This is the culture in ME.

What?
 

Not sure if your english is good enough to express true feelings, but if you are saying you don't care about John Hanley because he has done this to others you can kiss my a$$. John Hanley is one of the best men you would ever have the opportunity to meet.


Sincerely,
John T. Hanley

Rotorheads
 

Guys and Gals,

My dad died in a tragic accident. Please inquire to the cause and make a personal commitment to use your common sense and best judgement in your future endeavers based on this event so that it doesn't repeat itself. I am not in the aviation field, I decided to get into the natural gas transportation field so many of the acronyms used are unfamiliar to me on these threads. All I ask is that you all come together as pilots (disagree or not) and fly safe. Make the right decisions when they are put in front of you. You are all a very valiable asset to this industry and to the world in general. I cannot say enough good things of the personal sacrfice you introduce into your daily lives! Fly safe and feel free to contact me at any time.

John T. Hanley
210-882-7522
[email protected]

Gentlemen,
Please use some prudence when posting to this string - the family is reading. A new thread has been opened to discuss the pressures placed on aircrews to perform a flight - lets post related comments there and reserve this string for memories to honor the fallen.
J.

First of all, my heartfelt sympathy to John Hanley, Jr., his siblings and to his Thai family. Also to Obaid al Marashda's family. They'll be living with this accident long after the rest of us have moved on.
Secondly, I'm a long time pilot with ADA and flying the AW139 so have a keener interest in the root cause of this accident than most. I'd like to assure other AW139 pilots that, according to a source very close to the investigation with first hand knowledge of the contents of the FDR and CVR, that there was no technical fault with the helicopter. The full report is forthcoming.
I'm no apologist for ADA but to its credit it has been made crystal clear to its pilots that they have the full backing of the company if forced to deny a VIP access to the front seats. This being the Middle East such a memo, of course, is trumped by a phone call from someone more 'connected' than the ADA manager who wrote the memo, but it does show the intent is there to back up its crews should the situation John faced be repeated.

BellBoy, Thank you for your post. Would it be too much to ask for you to come back when the report is made available and post a link? Have found navigating the ME aviation authority web sites some what difficult in that an equivalent to the USA NTSB or British AAIB does not seem to exist.

AW139.
 

John,
Don't let them bait you. In every profession there are the good, the bad and the ugly.
Smile 412 or whoever you are - shame, son - no need.
This is not an incident - this is a memorial for those who died - for whatever reason.
PLEASE STOP rubbing salt in open wounds.
WE are ALL affected by this, one way or another.
WE have ALL been in that position, only difference is that we were lucky enough to have survived.
STOP!!:( Put yourselves in John Jnr's position.

AB139
 

While obviously feeling for the affected families I cannot help feeling that this kind of string is less than helpful.
Hang in there Stacey_S, my thoughts are with you. Have been in your position when the 330J went in in Mirri and know its not easy.Hang in there mate.

139
 

John was a US Citizen living in Thailand for past several years. He leaves a wife and a 2 year old child. He'd been with ADA for some years.

Elt P/n
 

ELT is ELT406-2HM with no water switch and manufacturer gives accelleration rates for trigger, generally require more than 6 g's. On the AW139 it is fitted on the bottom of the tail boom just behind the cargo bay.

John's Name
 

He was John Patrick Hanley and a fine Man. RIP John and Obaid and the others.

AW 139 down in Abu Dhabi
 

To the gentlemen who questionned CFIT, you need to know that this term
mean that a perfecttly flyable aircraft was put into the ground accidently by
his crews, this i`am sure, what i`m not so sure is, does that stand for CONTROLLED FLIGHT INTO TERRAIN or CONTROLLABLE FLIGHT INTO TERRAIN, the second version fit the description a bit better, however, it is obvious that
when a crew put a perfectly flyable aircraft into the ground, they lost control of something.

As for John sitting in the back, but being somewhat, between the 2 guys in the front with a full view of the cockpit, unless they have changed the configuration of that aircraft during the last year, it would have been
impossible for him, A6 BBB was the first AB 139 that came to the company with the Royal Jet colors and with a full VIP interior, wich was a 6 pax configuration, 3 seats in the back+3 aft facing seats, maybe there was divison between the back and the front, but i dont remember, there is not much you could see or interact with this arrangement.

CVR and FDR report on A6-BBB crash
 

I'll post what I learn as soon as I hear something.

BellBoy

BellBoy, Thank you, but we hope for a more detailed insight than just a read out of the CVR and flight data. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Tarzaniac
 

I arrived at ADA the same week as JOHN in 1992 and we became good friends while flying the line over the next 4 years. He regularly referred to abiding love for his family back in Texas, in particular his son JOHN. A terrific sense of humour, serious fisherman, intrepid golfer, and generally the kind of guy you always enjoyed having a beer with! In 1996, I joined him on holiday in Thailand where his infatuation with Asia was about to launch him on the second phase of his life and he was extremely enthusiastic about it. My condolences to both families for they have truly been deprived of a GOOD MAN. Rest in peace Capt. J. Sincerely, Grant W.

More Rumour than Professional
 

For all those that cannot resist commenting and adding further discredit to yourself the following is exact data on A6-BBB, serial no. 31028.

A6-BBB was never an Agusta Westland airframe as she was purchased well in advance of the change over from Bell. To that end she was registered with the GCAA as an AB139, not Ab 139, and her registration is A6-BBB and not A6 bbb.

INFORMATION LETTER
DATE: October 24, 2006
No.: AW139-06-001 Rev. 1

“AW139 and AB139 are two names for the same product.
They identify two batches of aircraft manufactured in conformity with a unique Type Certificate Data Sheet:

- AB139 up to SN 31054
- AW139 from SN 31055 onward."http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...klong9&thumb=4

She was a beautifully constructed and proudly maintained 5 (five) seat VVIP airframe with Bose Noise Canceling intercom for passenger comfort.

There was a solid wall partition installed that restricted movement between her passenger compartment and her flight deck, the design of which had a narrow gap and centre relief to facilitate installation/removal while providing limited passenger view forward. Additionally the installation of her Lounge Chaise style seats would have created a great obstacle to navigate over in the unusual flight regimes she apparently was experiencing. Between the two most rear forward facing seats was a chiffonier of sorts to facilitate storage and presentation of refreshments.


http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...klong9&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...yx2j0h&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...i0vf1j&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...g4b1dt&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...jbqwxt&thumb=4

well said Rotortuna, you as all Engineering Employees of the parent Company of 'Triple B' will not only miss the crew but also understand the implications of losing an airframe in your (our) charge, as Engineers, and I use that title "Engineer" correctly. RIP The crew, we the Engineers will wait for the results of the investigation, we will not speculate,m we know better.

JTH we feel your loss as our own.

Couldn't say it better!
 

Tarzaniac,

Thanks for the kind words. We will all miss him here in Texas. The reality still has not set in.


John T. Hanley

Thank you
 

Thank you stacey_s. I appreciate the support from all of you!

Sincerely,

JTH

Hey Allwornout,
If it is so bad why are you still there?
In all my years there I never heard of anyone being shot in a Mall. It must have been recent.
ADA does carry some problems for sure, but usually made worse by individuals banding together and crying, making the problems seem worse.
As to what happened to John, for sure , had he been at the controls we wouldnt have a result to talk about. There are a number of issues at play, the series of events that led to this unfortunate accident. It will not be a simple matter of pointing a finger at ADA, John, Obaid, or any other party. there is one issue that does shine through , and that is the position a pilot is placed in when faced with a powerful local. For John I believe the options were limited, as I understand the VIPs were picked up at a coastal location. It was not simply a matter of not riding along, there was no way home for the guy. Sure it cost his life, but he must have had enough faith in the remaining pilot onboard. Albeit, in hindsight, incorrect.
Very shocking and very sad news, and hopefully this will paint a glaring picture to the Arab aviation industry, that their own rules are in place for good reason, and that no exceptional cicumstances are to circumvent that. Because at the end of the day they are designed for their safety.

You guys do realize that this accident is going to be Johns fault dont you? There is no way that the arrogance of the local Arabs will allow anything else.