Any Police Helicopters used as Air Ambulances
 

Just do any UK Police Helicopters double up as Air Ambulances when not in use ?

Joint Machines that are Dual Role, as in carry a Bobbie and Paramedic as crew that I am aware of are Wiltshire and Sussex, can't think of anyone else.

Thanks thats very interesting - the reason i ask is, my local police helicopter only flies on average 3hrs per day and i think this vital resource could be used to help others in need.

your right Ulster man it is. wilts unit and sussex works very very well............probably why some Ambulance trusts somewhere:ugh: are trying to change it. You can always tell when something is value for money.. as some self serving self promoting **** will try and change it!!!!!!!.

Most (if not all) Police A/C can carry out casevac, usually done after the AA finish for the night. As for the amount your helo flies a day do you know what fit it has? How much to fit all the specialist Med kit then find and train Paramedics? How much capacity does the A/C have? ISTR its a 135, Its not as simple as you seem to think.

vortexadminman > that's because (in general) it's the Ambulance trusts that have the money, not the police, and thus the power to make such changes. Sussex Air Ambulance are putting £250K into the Sussex Police helicopter for example (source)

Skyhigh-Ulster > that's average, most police units are somewhere in the range 2-3½ hours a day average in the air, but that means nothing unless you take into account the on-call hours and the number of tasks per day. Remember that EMS tasks take the helicopter out for much longer periods of time - in many cases the helicopter lands and shuts down while the medics do their work in readying the patient for flight. Time when the Police maybe pacing up and down their Portacabin wanting their helicopter back. I know it does work in Wiltshire and Sussex, but their police usage is well below average (Wiltshire's helicopter averages a mere 1.7 hours a day - EMS included - on basis of it had flown only 5295 hours at Dec06 from delivery Jul98)

Here's a thought... In Devon, they have a population of 1.12M and two EMS helicopters, and are currently replacing one with a new EC135 bought for cash. On that basis, Northern Ireland with a population of 1.74M could afford three helicopters, and London with a population of 7.5M could afford THIRTEEN helicopters. Bravo to Devon Air Ambulance for showing what can be done through hard work and successful fund-raising. Embarassing for London with their one helicopter, though, they always seem to appear in the press suggesting they are short of money. Short of organised fund-raising, more like....

The worst of both worlds
 

Those that believe that a heli can be dual-tasked are deluding themselves. Superficially it sounds like a good idea but the competing priorities are incompatible.

Imagine you spend 6 months setting up a big drugs bust, you 't'-up all the players and the chopper cover is vital to success (covering escape routes, covert observation and video surveillance as well as providing down-linked pictures to C & C. Then there is a motorway pile-up from hell and the whole job is blown because the dispatch protocols call the need for medical assistance from the chopper unit.

or..... the other way round

You are sitting on the ground in AA role awaiting the return of paramedic/doc with patient and the cops demand the chopper because they have a bank robbery in progress with possible hostages......

I could go on. Yes, it works after fashion but dual-rolling will only ever be a very very poor second.

Now.... if you want to be like the French who have a pool of public service helicopters ..... that's a different kettle of fish.

Dual Roll = THE WORST POSSIBLE COMPROMISE - dont do it!!!!!

CKD

:ugh:

I agree, the two roles are, in the main, specialist and incompatible.
Would we expect to use a police car as an ambulance?
Who decides the operational priorities?

I have done several night casevac jobs as a Police Pilot, as mentioned earlier in this thread, only when AA go off line. Normally attend these with only one observer so we have room for doc + medic + cas. Its not ideal but it does save lives.

Well as a tax payer i don't think i'm getting value for money - maybe thats why the PSNI are refusing to answer a number of FOI requests.

SIKOARSKIE

On a scale of:

0 = I will buy shares in your company:ok:
to
10 = you should run for office:yuk:

I will give you an 11.:mad:

Sky high.....it costs roughly £1200 per hour ISTR. £5000 a day not enough for you? You would also need to change your heli to one that can do both roles, therefore more costs.

Bring back 72 Sqn :)

God save us......
 

Bring back 72 Sqn ..... I should coco. := Within the year the entire public service fleet would be tied up with Crab bureaucracy and costs going off the clock. Whatever happens we need military involvement but we most definately do not need military leadership. The words 'piss-up' and 'brewery' spring to mind.

This does not mean that I don't rate the organisational skills of many miliary men and women - they can be mind-boggelling good - but the baggage they bring is not worth the pain. What we need is a National (Light/Medium) Helicopter Resource with a remit to support Police/Fire/Ambulance services and to augment the SARfleet. Economies of scale achieved by centralised maintenance and bulk purchase will allow every region to have access to appropriate equipment including FTDs/FFS.

I sometimes despair at the way each police force, each ambulance service and each fire service thinks that it is a good, morale-boosting philosophy to do-down the neighbouring forces and talk-up their own version of what's best for Joe-Public. So much energy and so many resources wasted with in-fighting and turf-wars. Roll on the day the Fire and Ambulance services become one, share their magnificent skills and abilities under one roof and get on with the job of serving the public.

A helicopter can do all of these tasks and the pilots likewise and if you want it done properly, on-time and on-cost ASK A CIVVY !!!

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

CKD


(I had a nightmare where I dreamt that 72 Sqn had a huge fleet of Public Service light twins and became so crabbified that they painted 5 of them Red and formed a display team....... am I going mad or what????)

CKD

:ok: The logistics of finance would be difficult and wrestling ownership of local a/c from local chief constables / execs would be even worse but that's no reason to shy away from the task. Just need a government with the b*lls to grasp the nettle!

:ok::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I concur.

They did it in Hong Kong in 1993 under British rule and it worked very well, still does under Chinese rule.

Unfortunately it takes money and as we know, the UK government know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Sick Korsky
Been deluding themselves for a long time in Sussex. Funny old thing, there has never been a problem about "competing priorities". It's a system that works very well.

You slag "Dual-rolling" (sic) but you then advocate triple-roleing Make your mind up! http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

I was down on the South Coast today and there was a bit on the local news about the Wiltshire Police/Air Ambulance.

Apparently the contract is up for renewal soon and the Chief Constable was being interviewed and said that without the £500kpa contribution from the Air Ambulance charity, they wouldn't be able to finance the aircraft on their own.

So if funds are really limited, maybe there is a place for these combined-roled aircraft?


(Unfortunately, I can't find an online version of the story and I'm not even sure if it was BBC or ITV. :{:O It should be on the local news again this evening though. South Today or Meridian, I guess.)

Interesting stuff - what does ISTR mean ? if its what i think then no there not.

According to Googoo, the most likely candidates appear to be 'I seem to recall' or 'it stands to reason'. In this context, it will be the former.

Skyhigh are you saying the PSNI A/C is not an EC135?

Pie Man
 

Perhaps I should explain. If you have a pool of resources and you need one air ambulance and one Police machine then that's what you draw from the pool. If you need to use (one of) the standby machine because their is a major todo in your area then you get what you need. If you have a seasonal need in tourist areas then likewise.

If you ask a Turkey what he thinks about Christmas there's a fighting chance you can guess his reply. Therefore, based on the old addage of 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing then you can guess what Sussex boys will say if you asked them how good the service was. Now ask them if they could do more and do it better if they had two machines. Predictable I know but in view of your comments Mr Pie Man, I have to make the point. Believe me Men and Women Of Sussex, you don't know what you are missing doing it in this cheapskate way. Just publish your dispatch protocols then we can all have a good laugh. How far up the clinical priority list does an unconscious faller come compared with a hot pursuit of a much wanted ned who has just stabbed a copper.

Sorry about being so hard-nosed about this but nobody in this position should ever do anything other than confess that it comes a poor second to doing it properly. To do so would just perpetuate the myth than you can be good at two jobs with just one (compromised) resource.

:(

CKD

C.Korsky
 

In a perfect world with unlimited funds yes, a "pool of resources" would be lovely.

However, this is the real world, Sussex are doing the real job with the resources they have to hand and the system works extremely well (in that part of the world).

By the way, Their first priority is "preservation of life" and you can take that any way you like. I presume you are laughing like a drain now?

I look forward to further waffle about Turkeys and 100% of nothing http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

Pie-Lover
 

Well therein lies the rub. If you were truly aiming at the preservation of life then you be carrying two medical personnel (sorry - a Bobby with his First Aid certificate wont be eligible even if he is good) and not a Bobby plus Paramedic.

I think you will find that it is generally recognised in the HEMS world that due to the difficulties of monitoring vital signs in flight and the multiple tasks involved, seriously ill/injured patients require TWO clinicians who have enough training and experience to justify whatever title they 'wear'.

SO you see you cannot hide behind the fact that your stated priority - "The preservation Of Life" is somewhat compromised.

As for wishing the impossible I should point out that we wished for Air Ambulances for 15 years and dreamt of a network covering all of UK. Well it took Cornwall to show the way and 20 years on we are nearly there. "Ah!" I hear you say, "But what was the government's role in all this?" Well you would have a point but a 'faint heart never won a fair maid'.

If somebody doesn't light the way then we will never get there - will we?

:ok:

CKD

CK,

You can always improve performance by adding resources, but in the real world there will be a limit to what you can spend.

If we looked at a busy police helicopter unit, say covering a metropolitan area, it also has to make choices about how it deploys to tasks when 2 are offered up at the same time. There is nothing special in the combined HEMS/police unit about deployment decisions and priorities. That same met area could be covered by 2 police helicopters. This would reduce the number of times that conflicting tasks came up at the same time, but never entirely remove the possibility.

If you have a typical county police force that chooses not to provide enough funds for a police helicopter just for its own use, it has 2 choices:

- to combine ops with another service that operates in roughly the same area;
- to combine ops with another police force or forces in adjoining areas

You have ID'd some of the possible disadvantages of the former option. You ommitted one of its main advantages: that combined HEMS/police can operate during the night too.

However, there are significant disadvantages to the latter wide area pure police hele too. The main one relates to the increased distance and time that you will be away from tasks. Some police jobs are not time critical but lots of them are. Turning up 20 minutes later to a break in progress means that you probably wasted all the flying time. You did not fail to respond but the chances of getting a successful outcome was much reduced. The same applies to vehicle pursuits.

If you have 2 helicopters to cover 2 counties for police and HEMS, is it better to have a single police and a single HEMS helicopter covering BOTH counties or 2 combined police/HEMS helicopters covering both counties?

That is a real choice and IMHO an interesting question.

Found it! It's currently on the Meridian News homepage. Unfortunately, I can't link directly to the story.

Not like you Bravs :ok:

Here_'tis!

Cheers

Whirls

You may be missing the point.........
 

.......A minority of HEMS missions are truly life-saving but you never know that this is going to be the case until later. Crucially the difference between a successful outcome and an unsuccessful outcome is often the level of care the HEMS team can deliver and if you dilute this in any way - yes in ANY way - you risk the latter.

It is so tempting and so attractive to put these two roles in the same box but the reality is, I suggest, totally the opposite. It is the politicians convenient get-out. We can't really afford it but......... wallop! two for the price of one and Robert's your mother's brother ...... that will keep those do-gooding bunch of wingers off our backs.

We have a unique funding arrangement in the UK where the majority of HEMS are financed directly by the public through donations. Try asking for hand-outs for your local Constabulary Aviation Unit and see what joy you get. I suggest that it is the Cops who are up against it here so in effect somebody is doing a very good sales number on the folk of Sussex that results in their HEMS Op being second rate. I say again, ask the Sussex Ambulance Trust if they would like their own machine, assuming of course that the funds were available to support it.

One of the least understood ways in which the HEMS chopper makes the Ambulance Service more effective is its contribution to the logistical equation. If you sit in the control room day after day you can watch the random nature of the job. In no time flat you have no resources available and a serious RTA to deal with. Not only can the chopper cover your entire area but it can also help to move non-serious cases out of the system more quickly. In the more rural parts of the UK an ambulance can be out of the system for 4 or more hours dealing with a moderately serious patient's trip to a General Hospital. In the meantime the guy who has a heart attack snuffs it because HIS ambulance (the one covering his area) is away to the bright lights.

I could go on but I would bore you. As for night Ops well that could be solved overnight if we made all HEMS flights a part of 'Government Operations' and took them away from JAROPS 3. There is nothing special about Police Helicopters, they just have the benefit of the POM. Don't get me going on that one.......

:ugh:

CKD

God forbid. However, you really are very insulting towards the excellent service which the Sussex Police/Ambulance helicopter provides. To describe their HEMS op as second rate shows that you don't have a great deal of knowledge of that particular service. And I think you will find that the night cover in Sussex is something most other county ambulance services would be grateful for.

Yes, here we go again, "in a perfect world" blah, blah, blah.
I'm afraid that happened a long time ago. I'm sure it won't stop you from posting more poorly thought-out insults! http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/pie.jpg

Thanks, Whirls. I was in a rush, innit?! :O

Whoate - the whole of the air ambulance setup in UK is second rate - it has to be because it is day/VMC and needs to be night/IFR/NVG to provide what the public should get, ie 24/7 cover. Neither can the AA helicopters provide a patient transfer service for critical patients since the amount of kit and attendees requires bigger helos than the charities can afford.

Don't get me wrong, what they do, they do very well but we do not have a top flight service appropriate to an (allegedly) first-world country. You can blame whoever you like - the govt and the CAA would be first on my list but until everyone is pulling in the same direction and demanding the appropriate service we will continue to provide less than we should and end up having to compromise by combining assets which further degrades the service.

I am not wanting to start an argument (?) but it seems as though CK's answer (supported by crab) is just throw more resources at it and it will be better. Whilst true, this is not much of a revelation. It also ignores the other beneficial ways that you might spend some of that same money, if you could devise an effective HEMS (or police ASU) system leaving a bit of surplus.

The health industry remains unconvinced of the benefit of HEMS anyway (especially in the UK). If there is any spare cash floating around under their control or influence, they will find other ways of spending it. A major initiative to spend lots more money will need some good evidence to justify it. In both the HEMS and police ASU world we have been very lazy about proving our value.

It is also only of limited use to say throw away the current rule book. For the foreseeable future, we have that set of rules (more or less) to operate by.

The current possible/recent upheaval in HEMS is about power politics and asserting train-set ownership rights and has little or nothing to do with effectiveness or efficiency unfortunately.

The peculiar route by which England and Wales acquires its HEMS funding means that the costs of running the helicopter can be funded by means which do not involve an objective review of the value of the service provided. Morally though, we should try and make it as effective and efficient as possible, and be able to demonstrate that, in case anyone ever asks

That is not entirely true as this is dependent on the type of AA aircraft used? I have done numerous patient transfers and once the attendees have been briefed as to what they can and cannot bring, having been made aware of the space available in the back of the aircraft and also the equipment already carried, they have been more than satisfied with the equipment they have been allowed to bring.

It's human nature to bring as much equipment as one possibly can, just in case, on the odd occasion even if we'd have landed in a Chinook for a patient transfer it would have been filled with "critical" personnel and equipment!

No i wasn't i thought ISTR meant instrument trained :confused:

I think you'll find they would be instrument trained as commercial pilots, but police ops are visual by nature so they wouldn't operate using an instrument rating. You wouldn't be a journalist by any chance?:confused:

Nope :=

So if police pilots aren't instrument trained, then they can't fly in all weathers am i right ?

Weather limitations help but if you can't see the ground you can't see the villain/incident.



Not ALL Air Ambulances have FLIR and a Nitesun for Ad Hoc landings..

Approximately 80% of Police pilots are definately instrument trained, because that's the approximate percentage of Police pilots who are ex military. Of the other 20% of "civilian" Police pilots, probably quite a few have an instrument rating from previous jobs.

Regardless of which, we have to carry out 1 hour of sim IF training every 3 months. Not a great amount, I must admit, but enough to prepare you incase of inadvertant IMC. :eek:

Timex

Like I said, there is nothing special about Police helicopters - just bolt on a FLIR - Fit the Night Sun - job done.

Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back. Thankfully NVGs may save us from further embarassment.

Sussex

If any of the individuals in the Susses Police/HEMS outfit feel insulted by my exhortations on their behalf then I am truly sorry. My intentions were all about raising an issue that is akin to the Emperor's Clothes and if we all go on saying how wonderful they look then before we know it it will become the fashion. My experience of both clinical staff and Police Officers (first hand I might add) is that they are under-appreciated by the general public and deserve more from us insofar as they should not be asked to do a first-rate job in second-rate circumstances. As with our Military they deserve the right tools for the job.

CKD

But you are on a mission to discredit the PSNI, aren't you :rolleyes:

You certainly have a bee in your bonnet, looking at your previous posts. FoI applications, newspaper reports, trying to find out via Rotorheads who operates the helicopters, even though the FoI for that information was refused on security grounds.

Anyone would think you have a (hidden) agenda :yuk: