And so rings the death knell for the IDMGB on the S92. I had wondered what happened to that effort over the course of the last 5 years.

It would appear the revised bypass system, new 6 stud filter housing, reverse flow filter, and oil port routing changes sufficed for the MoD. That, or they realized they were never going to get a truly redesigned box.

So just to recap. . .Sikorsky have secured MORE money to deliver LESS helicopter 10 years later than required? They have effectively made Canada their bitch haven't they? Way to go Sikorsky! (I mean, credit where it's due and all that!)

Suddenly Chinook HC.3 seems like a small hiccup!

Presidential will save the day.....
 

This has been Sik. M. O. for the past decade. Low ball bid, promise no cost to the customer for capability development, win the contract; than start the re-negotiations for what the customer THOUGHT they bought....:D

Never fear Canadian brethren. My crystal ball says the US Presidential Helicopter (VXX) win....errr... (sole bidder award) by Sik. will ultimately lead to the US government paying for development of an "enhanced" MGB for national security reasons. (notice: "enhanced" doesn't imply that anything is necessarily wrong with the original MGB, and a bunch of S-92 customers won't demand a replacement MGB) In fact Sik. will likely offer it as a high priced option on the S-92 in the future.......

Yes. I realize that the New VXX contract was FFP, but that was only for the initial 6 EMD aircraft. The remaining helicopters will have to have a follow-on contract be "negotiated" and signed before the fleet is actually delivered. Perfect opportunity to insert the "enhanced" MGB option. This is the same tactic the OEM on Tanker will use after taking a loss on the initial 17 KC-46's when it comes time to actually deliver the remaining +100 aircraft.

YEP. Acquisition is definitely fixed. Just ask them...... :ok:

We've ALL seen this movie before.

I think this was what was precisely what they were counting on in 2005, but then they surprisingly lost VXX round 1. I have always suspected the 5th blade hub was a part of that plan for the 92 at the same time.

Though in this case, VXX-II mandates no substantial airframe or dynamic system alterations to the platform, so even NAVAIR has somehow convinced themselves the 4 bladed S92A is up to snuff.

ROFL!!!!!
 

Howls of laughter no doubt in Yeovil and Cascina, tinged with genuine feelings of sorrow for the Fine Canadian chaps and chappesses (and also I guess future POTUS) who will be lumbered with this lemon!!

'world’s most capable maritime helicopter'... my :mad:!!!

DM

It only mandates "as is" for the EMD (6) aircraft. They can negotiate any changes they want for the production contract.

I bet the "enhanced" MGB and likely 5 blade hub will be ready in time for the follow-on negotiations........

Well there you have it!

So the US taxpayer will undoubtedly end up funding the "new VXX" MGB which will makes it way out to the S92A and H92/CH148 fleet eventually, even though its been in work for the better part of a decade.

If it's been "in work" for the better part of a decade by Sik. why has it not been developed or fielded? 10 years is a long time for an "enhanced" MGB to be "in work"?

Answer IS: SIK wanted someone to pay for something SIK had already promised to provide to Canada. Someone besides themselves that is.

The entire affair should be very embarrassing for Canadians but I very much doubt that it will be.

Embarrassing will be nothing compared with the backlash if/when one is ditched at sea following a mgb failure and no auto life raft deployment ,or maybe an engine failure at mauw when they find it won't maintain flight on one engine !
Even worse when the Canadian public find out that none of the above would be permitted in the oil and gas industry.

I agree with you. The embarrassment of it all is merely a present thing. The potential regrets to come from this decision all are future matters that, if they come to pass as you portend, will prove to be far more difficult to swallow than the current victory for Sikorsky has turned out to be.

It's all been deathly quiet on the Cyclone for 6 months in Rotorheads and nothing (that I've seen anyway) in the industry media either. Any news if and when you'll be getting these aircraft???

Cyclone Helicopters to Reach Full Operating Capability In 2025: DND (excerpt)

The country's air force is now projecting it will be 2025 before its long-suffering CH-148 Cyclone helicopter fleet is fully up to speed with all of the aircraft, pilots and ground crew needed for deployments — both at home and overseas.

The date for what's known in the military as Full Operational Capability (FOC) will be almost 21 years after Paul Martin's Liberal government signed a contract with U.S. defence giant Sikorsky Aircraft to deliver 28 state-of-the-art maritime helicopters.

It will also be seven years after the last of the vintage CH-124 Sea King choppers is scheduled to retire after flying for over five decades.

"It is really a case study in how not to acquire something," said George Petrolekas, a retired colonel and senior military adviser. "It's a long saga that has to do with choices made by various governments across the political spectrum."

Has anyone talked to the Canadian aviators who have been flying the machine?

Unless I miss my guess, they have been given clear instructions to not discuss the Cyclone project in any venue - particularly online.


;)

Oh dear...

Air force grounds Cyclone military helicopter fleet after problem during descent in Halifax | The Chronicle Herald

Doesn't seem like a full UFCM but that appears to be the way they are treating it.

Sounds more like the sort of thing a dodgy gyro could produce.

Gyro? When was the last time you saw a gyro in a modern helicopter? 🤓

I haven't seen one without a gyro. Granted the modern gyros use lasers rather than spinning hunks of iron.

Nothing to do with gyros. Flight control computer issue.

And do the sensors that feed into the fight control computer include gyros (of any flavour:)) by any chance?

Only 12 of them 😃😃

Just curious but is the flight control and AFCS systems in the Cyclone the same as the civilian variant?

Nope. The Cyclone is FBW while the S92 is not.

FCCs on the Cyclone are manufactured by a different company then the ones on the S-92.

Air force worried about keeping new maritime helicopters' weapons systems operational

DND searching for outside consultant to 'define' options for the future of the Cyclone fleet

Air force worried about keeping new maritime helicopters' weapons systems operational | CBC News

https://i.cbc.ca/1.3769214.147431044...y-brewster.jpgMurray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Jan 10, 2024 5:00 AM AST | Last Updated: January 10

https://i.cbc.ca/1.7079151.170491349...sh-2020623.jpg
A CH-148 Cyclone helicopter from 12 Wing Shearwater, home of 423 Maritime Helicopter Squadron, flies near the base in Eastern Passage, N.S. on Tuesday, June 23, 2020. (Andrew Vaughan/The Canadian Press)

The air force is worried about keeping the aging weapons systems aboard its CH-148 Cyclones operational into the future, according to leaked documents obtained by CBC News.

It's an understatement to say that the $5.8 billion maritime helicopters project is a work-in-progress for the Department of National Defence (DND) and the aircraft's U.S. manufacturer, Sikorsky.

It will soon be 20 years since a previous Liberal government ordered the aircraft to replace its fleet of CH-128 Sea Kings, 1960s-era workhorses which saw decades of service flying off the decks of Canadian warships.

But even after two decades and billions of dollars spent, not all of the 28 Cyclone helicopters the federal government originally ordered have been delivered.

And DND doesn't consider the Cyclones delivered so far to have reached their final "operating capability" — an important designation that indicates the military is satisfied it got what it paid for.

Late Tuesday, the defence department acknowledged in a media statement that it's searching for an outside consultant to "define potential options" for the fleet.

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Retired colonel Larry McWha — an aviation expert who commanded 423 Squadron when it flew CH-124 Sea Kings — said maintaining and upgrading the Cyclone's weapons system will be a huge, costly challenge because Canada is the only country flying the CH-148, a militarized version of the Sikorsky S-92.

Components will become harder to find and may even have to be specially manufactured, said McWha, who has followed the Cyclone program from the beginning.

The leaked documents — a Sept. 23, 2023 PowerPoint presentation and a spreadsheet that details technical concerns cited by air bases and air force wings across the country — show that 12 Wing in Shearwater, N.S., where many of the Cyclones are based, questioned the "sustainability of the CH-148 Weapon System" in the medium and long-term.
WATCH | Weapons systems for maritime helicopters may soon be outdated:
https://thumbnails.cbc.ca/maven_lega...ze=510px:*510w

Air force worried 'new' helicopter's weapons systems will be obsolete

1 day ago
Duration2:45

A leaked internal report warns the Canadian Armed Forces Cyclone helicopters have weapons systems that are becoming obsolete, even as the military waits for delivery of the final two helicopters from the manufacturer — almost 20 years after they were initially procured.The documents, which were verified by CBC News, were presented to senior military leaders last fall.

"Operational Relevance is in question as critical systems such as secure SECURE COMMUNICATION / TACTICAL DATA LINK / PRIMARY WEAPON are set to expire without replacement pathways," says the spreadsheet.

In a written statement, DND said the air force is aware of the concerns.

An optimistic timeline

"The replacement of secure comms, tactical datalink and weapons (an upgraded torpedo) are all being actively pursued and funding is being sought to complete all the upgrades," said the statement.

Air force planners still don't anticipate getting the replacement systems installed and run through the initial testing phase until 2031. The department said stopgap measures are being considered.

"However, investigations are ongoing to identify and implement limited interim capabilities for both the torpedo and secure comms by 2025 in order to reduce the operational impact," the DND statement said. "Investigation of a limited interim tactical data system is also ongoing."

When the Cyclones were first ordered in 2004, the Liberal government of then-prime minister Paul Martin predicted that the helicopter would be in service by 2010-2011 at the latest.

That proved to be a wildly optimistic timeline, as neither DND nor the manufacturer anticipated the technical complications that came with converting a civilian chopper to military use.

Sunk costs

By 2013, the Conservative government of then-prime minister Stephen Harper (which also hired an outside consultant) was looking at scrapping the Cyclone project altogether as costs and delays mounted.

But the government — which had already spent $1.7 billion on the project by that point and had received just four test helicopters — opted to stick with the program.

Under the terms of a revised contract with Sikorsky, signed almost a decade ago, the air force would start to receive 28 "fully capable" CH-148 Cyclone helicopters in 2018.

In its statement, DND acknowledged that the helicopters have not reached their full capability and likely won't be fully operational by the stated 2025 deadline.

"Given current personnel and resource constraints, it is unlikely 12 Wing and the RCAF will achieve FOC [Full Operating Capability] by 2025," the statement read.

A scarcity of personnel, parts

The air force blames shortages of skilled personnel — a problem that plagues the military across the board. It says it can't assign enough skilled people to the airbase in Shearwater to bring the fleet up to standard.

"An additional reason for the delay involves disruptions in the global supply chain that are creating delays across most industries," said the DND statement.

"As such, there has been a delay in the delivery of the 27th and 28th aircraft as Sikorsky waits for parts. The delivery of the 27th aircraft is expected in the first part of 2024 and in [second quarter] 2025 for the 28th and final aircraft."
https://i.cbc.ca/1.6714563.170188197...48-cyclone.jpg

A Royal Canadian navy CH-148 Cyclone helicopter deploys flares in a training exercise in November 2022. (Royal Canadian Navy/Twitter)

McWha said it's significant that the department is acknowledging the impact of the parts shortage.

"Sustainability of the Cyclone fleet has been a problem and will only get worse," he said.

"If the manufacturer cannot get delivery of the parts necessary to deliver a contracted product to the customer, one can only imagine the difficulty that the customer must have in getting replacement parts to support products that have already been delivered."

An 'orphan' system

The problem, said McWha, relates to the fact that the Cyclone is what the military calls an "orphan weapon system" — no other countries are flying it and it draws on a small pool of replacement parts.

The communications and combat system the air force is now struggling to replace may have been state-of-the-art in 2004, he said, but it was also unique to the helicopter.

"Even if it is possible to find a supplier willing to produce replacement parts or repair failed components for such a small fleet, the cost of doing so will inevitably be very high," said McWha.

"This was entirely foreseeable back in 2004."

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Unless the government throws lots of money at them, he added, the "manufacturers have no incentive to retain the technicians and engineering to service or support a tiny obsolescent fleet that is no longer on their production line."

Dave Perry, a defence analyst and president of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, said it's interesting the defence department has chosen to get outside advice.

He added that, given all the problems with the Cyclone project to date, he's wondering whether federal officials are considering replacing the Cyclone with something less troublesome.

"There's been some Canadian allies recently that have done essentially exactly that, moved to cut their losses on some helicopters which were underperforming and look at alternatives. I don't know whether or not we're quite at that situation," said Perry, whose organization has hosted conferences that occasionally have been sponsored by defence contractors.