Norwegian Puma Pilot Wins £167000 for Tinnitus
 

Heard that a Norwegian pilot with Tinnitus won £167,000 in a Norwegian court after a rather lengthy legal battle.
Does anyone have any more information?
What are the North Sea Operators going to do about it??:sad:

Conduct research, and carry out trials using ANR headsets and ear protection devices, collaborating with BALPA. They are already doing so.

Seems a poor decision to me: anyone earning a Norwegian Pilot's salary, who can't figure out that two Makilas sitting above your head doing 31,000 rpm for hours on end might be a bad thing for your ears, and who can't be bothered to spend $500-800 on an ANR headset, needs their head examining, not having large sums of cash dished out.

Nicely put, 212man! :D

Sounds like he messed up his pension planning and needed a top up.

While the pilot could have purchased an ANR Headset for themself, current ANR headsets seem optimised to filter out the lower frequency range of sounds whereas hearing in the upper frequencies tend to fail and of course turbine engines are high pitched.

Additionally, there may well be a problem of whether an off-the-shelf headset works in the Aircraft - the company isn't going to pay for a mod for a non-company standard headset.

Since a helmet isn't considered acceptable, you are rather stuck if you wish to use something other than the company standard equipment.

As for the ANR headset testing, the last I heard was that they didn't offer as good noise reduction as a standard passive set overall, particularly in the upper frequency ranges, yet I stll hear (the rumour?) of new headsets coming down the pipe.

BG.

Baron,

You are quite right, the myth that ANR headsets are better at protecting hearing is simply not true. ANR's cannot filter much above a thousand Hz, and the most damaging frequencies are far above that.

It is the sealing and suppression from the ear cup are the protection that one needs, and this is available from plugs and headsets without expensive electronics.

vital actions,

I must disagree with you. The company pays for HALF the price of helmets or noise cancelling headsets up to $600, so why would they force crew not to wear something they have helped pay for? I just does not compute.:confused:

I can understand compatability issues, but even those should be reasonably easily resolved considering the number of these aircraft flying around.

I agree with ya'll; but, I can't imagine flying a full day ever again without my ANR helmet. Occasionally I unplug it just to remind myself of how it was before. After a few seconds I plug it back in and leave it alone. I have a spare set of internals just in case something quits I can switch them out and send the broke one's in for repair. High freq-low freq, im my mind it (and ears) it makes a differnce.

barryb

Puma pilot wins damages for tinnitus
 

More here


H.

Sounds fair enough...
 

Interesting. I gather some marks of Royal Navy Sea Kings have ANR, whilst the Royal Air Force doesn't consider it neccessary in their Mk 3 SAR cabs!
Maybe the cost of ANR is more than the anticpated cost of future claims.

Or maybe the SAR Bouys do very little in the way of flying so have no need of it..............just a thought :p

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeePardoneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

It reminds me of that old Austrian racing driver..errr Nikki....errrrr :}

Mostly,

Too quick for me!:ok:

Any chance of an ex Puma crewman getting owt for a pair of buggered knees?

CG

There's every chance of a current Puma Crewman getting out for a pair of buggered knees, buggered back, buggered neck etc etc :}

Quote:
Interesting. I gather some marks of Royal Navy Sea Kings have ANR, whilst the Royal Air Force doesn't consider it neccessary in their Mk 3 SAR cabs!
Maybe the cost of ANR is more than the anticpated cost of future claims.



I can confirm that one variant of RAF C130 has ANR and the other doesn't.
What I can't find is the documentary evidence that supports the widely rumoured inception costs versus compensation cost decision to use one without ANR.

Having done work on this subject, ANR appears not the panacea it is claimed to be. In many respects it does make you feel better, and certainly improves radio/intercom clarity. However, it does not cover all harmfull frequencies that are generated by helo aviation. Thus ANR could, in some circumstances, accellerate your hearing loss by fooling you into spending longer in a noise-harmful environment. The only way to prevent, or delay, the onset of hearing loss is to physically block out the harmful noise as well as the irritating, ie use F1 style moulded ear plugs (which rock musicians & motorcyclists also swear by).

And who in the company supplies these special plugs?

Well the three A109s on 32(TR) Sqn have some Gucci Bose noise cancelling headsets. Was informed by crew that they're about £1000 a piece! And boy...do they work! Cut out all the whiniing...especially from the two front seats. :ok:

After my time on Pumas I don't have tinnitus - can't hear a damned thing!

Jordan has started helicopter lessons and has already put in a claim for severe tittinus.

All L2 pilots will probably admit to suffer from tinnitus to some extent, some more than others. Biggest challenge is that the high frequency noise from the intakes goes right trough the scull, totally bypassing any sophisticated headset. Just flying with a cap on makes a big difference, and lately winterliners for construcionwork helmets has become quite popular to put over the cap.

The L2's in Norway now have sound proofing material in the cockpit ceiling, cutting the noise by a couple of db. I'm currently looking into replacing my Peltor with a helmet, which must be lightweight and comfy.

:rolleyes:.....the old ones are the best...Say again???!!!

i have tinnitus - went to the doc and said i have a problem with my hearing - he asked "what are the symptoms"

A cartoon family from America :)

I think helmets are the way forward given all of those skull cracking nuts and bolts in a Puma cockpit.:uhoh:
Apparently risk assessments are to be made on the wearing of helmets?
In order to obtain the best protection from the noise levels and protect your head, helmets must be the way forward?
I understand that helmets are used offshore in Australia, if so how have they convinced the operators that this is they way forward?

Quote
 

Well the three A109s on 32(TR) Sqn have some Gucci Bose noise cancelling headsets. Was informed by crew that they're about £1000 a piece! And boy...do they work! Cut out all the whiniing...especially from the two front seats. :ok:

Shoud be made compulsary for anyone who go near anything light blue, nothing worse than a whiniing crab ! :D

Tinnitus and Helicopters
 

If anyone out there has tinnitus or just has some thoughts on the subject I'd be very interested to hear from them.

I started getting tinnitus a few years ago after long days in the aircraft and now I'm at the point where I have it permanently. After starting to talk about it, I was amazed at how many colleagues seem to suffer from it too.

So is it a condition surprisingly common in the helicopter world? Perhaps due to our close proximity to the engines in the cockpit, vibration, time spent on ramps etc.?

Are there many heli guys out there suffering from it? Has anyone ever had any trouble getting a medical because of it? Has it ever affected anyone's flying? Do you think the importance of minding your hearing around aircraft is really spelt out to students when they start training?

Just ask a few Norwegian pilots,and for that matter the majority of 92 drivers out there if they have tinnitus.
Helicopter design is all about inverted progress,the newer the helicopter the more noisy it is.
But luckily we are protected by the law :{ :ugh:

I once rode in the back of an L2 and the thing that really hit me was how much noise and vibration it produced compared to other helicopters I have piloted or paxed in - I felt these intrusions went straight into my chest and it was sickening. I wasted no time in asking the crewman for a pair of muffs !

older and news
 

That's for true, but for the B412!!

110 db in the flight deck for almost ten years; only a Gentex HGU-84 + CEP and modified earcups & earseals could cope.

And still I feel some small degree of acufene (tinnitus) in my left ear when controllers voice raises a bit in the comm.

I used to wear the little small ear pieces in the air force under the helmet and once on ground i could even hear the birds chirping. just turned up the volume a tad. amazing kit for $1 :ok:

ps. though can't here the missus sometimes :E

31 years of sitting under engines and gearboxes
 

31 Years of combined military and civilian flying, (28 on rotary) as a crewman. I have profound noise induced hearing loss and associated Tinnitus. The RAF helmets have improved over the years but I'm not convinced that they offer effective hearing protection. In the old days, not a great deal was said about hearing damage.

Recently been recommended to see an ENT specialist for the first time. Prescribed digital hearing aids. Still flying (not with the hearing aids in) as the condition doesnt affect my performance in the air. Unfortunately I can now hear the wife when the TV is on. On the plus side, I can now hear what people are saying in pub and busy locations and have improved clarity overall. There is no going back though, my hearing will not improve, it will only continue to get gradually worse.

new tech
 

Advanced Bionics: The world's best performing, most reliable cochlear implant systems

I understand that this technology is working extremely well for severe hearing loss. As most pro pilots, I definitely suffer from hearing loss. Among the aircraft I have flown, the DC-9, which I sat in for 8 years, had no headset capability. We used a hard plastic molded ear piece for one ear to monitor radios and the other ear was unprotected. You had to have one ear unblocked so you could communicate with the other pilot, no intercom. The cockpit was noisy. I am not talking 30 years ago, this was in the 2000's at Northwest Airlines. When flying these days I wear a standard Gentex helmet. I wear it very tight so the earcups seal well. My EMS helo flights are relatively short, 15-20 minute legs are the usual, so I am not exposed to anywhere near the noise I was in the airlines. I do have to crank up the radios.

Cheers

Ask any Chinook pilot about hearing loss.....the forward tranny just above yer noggin screaming itself to death gets to you pretty quickish.

For a laugh...follow three Chinook pilots down a hallway and listen to the five conversations going on.

I maintain helicopter pilots should get Brass Ear Trumpets at retirement instead of a Gold Watch!

My HF hearing is gone...done...fini. I hear bells, whistles, and screeching when awake....and get some quiet by running an electric fan or Air Con next to the bed.

My dear Uncle Sam has gifted me some nice hearing aids....which do not help much...T's, Z's, C's, P's, E's, D's....all sound the same to me. Kids and ladies with high pitched voices might as well be speaking Swahili for all the good it does me.

And the problem with that is what, precisely? :E

Kids....no real loss. But the ladies.....well....errr...even old rats like cheese and communication is key to negotiation.

It does have its merits when the 5 AM freight train goes by next to the house....and she says "Do you want to get up or what?"

say again!

hearing, it's a problem, but you can do medical assisted with hearing aids as we do with glasses. for the eyes that is, not the balance.

very hard to work out whether the aids help with the hearing test ear muffs as usually I work better without the aids in real time under a helmet.

it's something every individual has to work out. The other thing to watch is when you go into the sound proof cube always do a good daily on the hearing muffs, and the wires leading into them. they usually have very old cracked wiring and I have found sometimes only work randomly, that's a real root.

Next time i'll be practising listening to the silent syllables before i go, LISTs, WIDEn those sorts of noises. and a tune up to the aids the day before. digital is the way to go, but six grand is a fair hurdle.

couple of our stock inspectors got a handout, and aids from the govt on a claim after lots of shooting from under an SPH4, no wonder.

If that all doesn't work, carry a good wad of notes in the back pocket.

Tinitus can have its roots way back to your Childhood days, Ie Teens,

I too suffer from the most aggravating constant SSSsssSsh that sounds like escaping steam or air from a split pipe, but strangely when I am around noise ie engines big whirly things and the like it goes away, but the very second the noise ends, back comes good old tinnie,

My ENT man put the initial cause down to useing 12 bores without ear cans, sadly most of my life has been alongside weapons of one sort or another, and anything that goes bang can help you on ya way.

PeterR-B

anyone got any tips or recommendations for equipment that works?

For example I have tried (all underneath a flying helmet(alpha)) foam plugs and cotton wool...

None are very practical!

Headset services ltd did have some moulded ear plugs but the company that supplied them went bust! I think they had a small hole in to allow ambient noise?

All I want, are ear plugs that will fit comfortably under the flying helmet ear cups and not prevent me from hearing the radio too much...?!?!?

MADY

Mady the company didn't go bust but HSL stopped using them because the wires kept braking due to bad design. My colleagues still have them but out of the three who wear them only one still can since HSL no longer repair the in ear plugs.

There are some excellent Danish ones which also negate the microphone but they cost £1k. Have a look on here there is a thread about them.

I think Helmet plus in ear is the best you can do nowadays.

Two of the guys form HSL have split and become HISL, it might be worth looking at what they're now producing

We have Alphas on the Police Air Support Unit with ANR fitted as standard but I cant stand the feeling of the constant thudding in my ears, so I use a jack plug and revert it to a NATO.... pure bliss.

However you do have to ask, we fly an absolute maximum of 2 hours due to fuel, normally it a 30-40 minute tasking.....do we need ANR?

I often do 7hrs a day in the summer... thats whats got we worried!!!

Do you know what HISL stands for so I can google them?... (no strobe light jokes please!)

MADY