...and then you have to argue your budget with an accountant! I'm sure TC will agree that arguing with an accountant is a pretty fruitless task! :} :p

Cheers

Whirls

Well, I've got all the qualifications, but then I realised that unless this petition to bin the ban on single pilot operations over the age of 60 succeeds, I'm too old :{ . Maybe that's why I never got a reply :\ .

A number of people have made mention of ex-military pilots being able to afford to fly on police ops because they have a nice pension to supplement the salary, but there are many, like myself, who having resigned early had to wait until age 60 for our preserved pensions.

The money does seem quite low, but considering there's no requirement for an IR, the hours requirements are not particularly high and there are good additional perks, plus the area is relatively cheap to live in, it seems fair and reasonable for the position offered. I'm sure there will be lots of well-qualified applicants. Good luck to the successful one, as it's a lovely part of the country to be flying in.

I'm sorry Soggyboxers.
Forgive me but that response is a little unhelpful. It misses the point.
Progress needs to be made in the Police/HEMS market and I don't believe that the first step is a vague acceptance from some quarters that the present offers are sort of, justabout OK, even quite reasonable!
That only serves to reassure those putting the packages together that they are offering the right price, that they've got it about right. We should be sending messages that pointedly indicate the contrary; that they've got it very wrong!

Market forces Big-Windy, market forces. Whether 'tis right or wrong, I'm afraid that is what is at work here.

Putting out "messages" to employers can only be done when the employer finds that they can't recruit the right person (or sufficiently qualified) for the salary offered. If they can, then the remuneration must, ipso facto, be about right.

Had I the qualifications, I would do the job for the package offered. If I would be selling out for others, then sorry; life's tough sometimes. As was pointed out, it's a nice area (and not expensive) to live so surely there are other aspects than just salary that count towards whether a job role is acceptable or not. Quality of life, the team with whom you work and the environment etc etc.

Everyone has their price; obviously I am cheaper than some :E :ok: :D

Cheers

Whirls

Big Windy,

I don't see what point I've missed. The topic was that a police ASU is seeking to recruit a line pilot. A number of people seem to have used that to change it to a general debate on whether police/HEMS pilots are adequately remunerated. At the end of the day, those having decided what to offer for this particular post will know whether they have got their figures right if enough suitably qualified pilots apply. A few posts on this website are not going to change their minds if they have more than enough qualified people apply.

The company I work for used to have a problem getting enough people until they changed their salary structure and work routine. Now they claim to have more than enough people, so I guess that the package they put together was right, whether I think it was enough or not.

At the end of the day TC made a post giving a number of people advance notification that there was a new job coming up and if he got a lot of applicants, one of them is going to be happy with his (or her) lot.

Hi TeeS

You make a perfectly valid point regarding the starting salary and other benefits. Compared to some the vacancy under discussion is good a package when viewed in the round. Unfortunately, some employers offer a basic wage with no benefits other than legal minimums and no ladder to climb in terms of pay. It is the basic wage for the rest of your days plus any annual rise that they decide to give you and absolutely no other benefit. Direct employment brings many things not least security. The market is bouyant at the moment and people will move around, and for the companys that are percieved to be poor employers they will suffer a shortage of applicants. Look at the constant adverts from one and you can figure out who that might be. If as rumoured one individual started on 39k recently then that proves my point about divide and rule. The 'starting salary' for them is very, very low 40s. It is not all about money, if it were then one could always get a job in a rubber suit but would that give any job satisfaction. Each to their own.

Regards

Kernowkid:)

IMHO, I think that these jobs will be available again in the not too distant future.

Clearly, using the military pension to 'top up' the wage, which is obviously what is going on here, nurtures a feeling of resentment towards the penny pinching tactic used by certain employers.

I for one am surprised that it seems to have leaked over to DE units and wonder at what stage the target employees 'extra income' becomes a factor.
Target employee = direct entry ex-mil ; Extra income = pension.

With these recent vacancies, I wonder how many applicants will purely see them as a 'first rung on the ladder' or foot in the door and will be off for pastures greener not too long after.

'Bonding' may appear to be a tool for the employer to utilise to prevent this, however as seen in recent events, this will not work in the present climate.

Yes, you can pay monkeys peanuts for flying, but will they be happy and loyal?

http://www.spacetoday.org/images/Ast...cesuitNASA.jpg

I would have thought if you offer a good to excellent package you save more money in the long run by not having to recruit every 5 minutes.

Yes, brilliant, you're quite right, but in these days of compartmentalised accountancy, where one doesn't care about the other guy's budget as long as his is OK, there's no one with the big picture to use common sense like that. It comes under the heading of proactive management, of which there is very little in the helicopter industry. Or anywhere else for that matter.

Phil

Salary Calculations
 

When I entered the Police/HEMS world it appeared very obvious how the salary offer was calculated. Current military wage (pa) minus military pension (pa) = Salary Offer! (almost to the £). Yes I accepted the contract but, with 24 years of employment coming to an end and a further 14 years of mortgage still needing payment there was a sense of relief to have secured another job. It has been said that the salaries and renumerations are good considering an IR is not required for Police Ops. Is this based on the fact that they cost a fortune to obtain if they are not done as a short course on leaving the forces? I believe that there will be a shortage of pilots for these roles in years to come as ex military types use the fist full of £'s given by the military to obtain their IR's and disappear to sit as co pilots off-shore waiting for a chance to get a Captain's position and the extra wealth that comes with it. And before anyone shoots me down as having a go at these guy's I am not!

A Police job in presents an easy transition from the armed forces into civilian flying for many suitably qualified helicopter pilots, especially where no IR is required. Simple as that. Some move on, some stay put. (I moved on, due to the company I worked for losing the contract to a cheaper bidder).

SilsoeSid, I'd like to correct your observation if I may. I have most certainly NOT pitched that salary at a level commesurate with an ex-mil pilot's pension benefits. That has never been on my agenda. In parallel, it is far too sensitive an issue for the police to ever get involved with such a discriminatory subject either.
The salary 'package' has been massaged and developed over many years as part of an education process with my employers. They are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves how and where to pitch the remuneration. As long as there is someone out there with the qualifications who is prepared to work for 'adequate' money then they will continue to place the ad fairly and squarely at the lower end of their financial catchment area.
It takes people like us to invite them to appreciate that we are highly skilled technicians doing a specialised job and as a consequence we should be rewarded appropriately.
The Police industry is FAR too small to gang up on its employers - and why should it? At the end of the day they are spending public money and want best value. Who decides that we deserve well above average pay packets??

The most effective way forward will be what is happening now - the market is drying up, not enough suitably qualified pilots available and the suppliers of contract pilots are having to charge exorbitent prices for their 2007/8 marketplace. Military pilots are almost non exisitent.

The market lags and leads overall, I think we are currently lagging, slightly...but things are about to change dramatically I think.

BALPA - don't make me laugh! I don't wear a BA badge on my lapel.

TC, you said

"BALPA - don't make me laugh! I don't wear a BA badge on my lapel."

CHC Scotia badge-wearers seem to have done quite well with BALPA....:O

"BALPA - don't make me laugh! I don't wear a BA badge on my lapel."

.............but quite happy to claim the UK commercial pilots tax allowance, negotiated by BALPA.................

Some good stuff coming out here. We're going round in circles somewhat but I think TC rounded things nicely with his last post.


There are some revealing comments in that post. As TC suggests, maybe there should be some market adjustments in the coming months/years. It certainly needs to happen! I'll be watching with interest.

Windy,
I think TC's comments re BALPA needed addressing. I think "market adjustments" don't just happen - they are pushed. Ask virtually any pilot who worked for PAS before 2002 (when PAS and BALPA signed a recognition agreedment) about waiting for these things to just happen. Some VERY poorly paid pilots had significant improvements at the time, and a transparent pay structure was agreed. (a suspiciously similar structure has subsequently been adopted by a company also based at Staverton)


However, more work needs to be done in the light of recent rotary pay deals.


If all police/hems providers had negotiating agreements with their pilots through BALPA, then the state of the pilot market could be addressed with the police forces and home office by a united front of operators. This would be the best chance of reaching better terms for pilots and ensuring the retention of experienced hands.

I spoke to an experienced pilot this week, who has applied for one of these posts. He will take a pay cut if he gets it. He wants the lifestyle available and money is not a player. I would not strike despite my low wages compared to some of you out there. I take offence at being blamed for accepting my package and spoiling it for everyone else. I repeat, I would love more money, but quality of life is far far more important.

Wallsend, you're quite right, BALPA has certainly improved T&Cs within PAS. The system is completely transparent and holds no surprises. Negotiations are ongoing but all opportunities are maximised I understand.


The additional benefits of BALPA membership are well known, a legal team with comprehensive experience in 'all matters aviation' is just one example. From a company perspective, the only downside is the fact that it takes 3 CC reps out of the roster for several days every year and that's not cheap!

Is there a hitch in HQ somewhere, or are the application forms not being released too early?
A friend of mine applied just about 2 weeks ago for the forms, 7 working days to go to application closing date!

Perhaps it was the photo that put HR off.....or TC recognises him!
:suspect:


beth ewyllysia bod ewyllysia bod

"but quite happy to claim the UK commercial pilots tax allowance, negotiated by BALPA..."

Do I get these automatically or do I have to ask for them?

Police flying it appears to me is for people who love the actual flying because the helicopter is being used for what it was designed for and is not being restricted by overbearing rules.
The people I know who lfy for the Police are doing it for the quality of the job and private life. We all would love more Money but we all left the Northsea with it's big salaries because to us the money alone did not cut it.

From what my little experience tells me it's down to the contracts and companies wanting to bag certain contracts even if it means there want be much in it but for the prestige.

But I believe in time the money will improve and extra perks will be included.

You could always work for the MET with £65k and shiny EC145, if you did not mind the loss of quality of life.