There are a lot of pilots currently employed by PremiAir/PAS/Bond for whom this would be a very attractive remuneration package, I wonder how many of those pilots have the "unrestricted JAA ATPL(H)" requested in the N Wales ad? |
Hmmm, good thinking Bertie. I haven't seen the published advert but in order to enjoy a JAA ATPL (H) don't you have to have at least 500 hours in a two pilot chopper on your ticket?
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A JAA ATPL(H) also requires an IR(H), which seems a bit pointless for a non-IFR helicopter
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It specifically states JAA or CAA ATPL(H).
Please lets not let this degenerate into specifics. It's a job offer - are some of you never happy? Pilots who have (had) CAA ATPL's are the ones we are looking for. Their time in the industry probably reflects they have/had possession of this relevant qualification in the past and may have transferred to the JAR equivalent. Does a JAR CPL (H) have 2000 hrs, or would he/she have translated it into an ATPL by then? Aren't IR's compulsory for JAR ATPL's? Just to clarify: We will take suitable applicants provided they have an unrestricted licence to fly single pilot public transport helicopters in the UK and can demonstrate they comply with the requirements laid down in the advert. Let's be grown up about this. |
TC. All recent ex-mil pilots will only get a JAA CPL(H) if they are not IR, no matter how many thousands of hours they have. So your JAA ATPL requirement limits the field for experienced guys holding JAA licences.
Your reply 44 still does not make it clear whether you require IR or not! Helinut; For an "unrestricted" JAA ATPL(H) you do require an IR. It is possible, however, to hold a JAA ATPL(H) without IR, "restricted" to VFR. eg, if you have converted from a (non IR) CAA ATPL(H) You would of course need the required multipilot time for such a conversion. |
No IR required.
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So you might need to delete the "unresticted JAA(ATPL)H" bit in the advert?
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Who cares! It's a JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: And getting that job will make somebodies day.:ok:
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BRASSEMUP: I do care. That's why I'm trying to clear the meaning of the job advert.
If you infer in the advert that an IR is required (by stating "unrestricted JAA ATPL") then a lot of those "somebodies" you mention might not even apply! |
Hey Bertie.. You seem to be absolutely the wrong stuff so to speak, Knowing TC as I do you will be rumbled in seconds, care or don't care, I wouldn't bother applying if I were you.:}
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Hey, Letsby.. you are so absolutely right!
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45 Grand!! That would be a significant pay rise for me as a line pilot at Liverpool. I've got an IR, but it is on fixed wing :confused:
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£45K is that for a co-pilot job:E
332M |
A poorly paid co-pilot:hmm:
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It's great fun getting involved in the semantics - isn't that just the nature of Pprune?
Seriously though, I'm sure that TC would love to offer more, far more, having experienced some of the more daunting tasks that N Wales has to offer. Alas, he's bound by the terms laid down by the HR dept. It's a shame because reading between the lines, the above posts tell me that we're ALL secretly disappointed at the value placed on our experience. Has anyone got any ideas on how to raise the game for police/HEMS wages across the UK? Direct employment was supposed to make a significant difference, I don't see that it has. Am I wrong? |
I must be a bit sheltered Big Windy, but that wage IS a significant rise compared to my police line pilot salary. The benefits are not bad either. OK, you will never be a millionaire in this game, but if money is your goal then get up to aberdeen and do some earning. I like my shift pattern, the work can be busy but isn't anywhere near as difficult as military flying and you have a life in the area you wish to live. The downside is less money, less is not always worse....
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Lifestyle, JT2, lifestyle. The money isn't everything. ;)
It's when they offer you a pay drop, you know it's definitely time to move on. (At least two of us here did that...) |
I guess you're right JT2. Maybe I am losing sight of THAT picture. Looking a bit wider though, no matter how you rationalise the situation it still boils down to the fact that we're all undervalued. The real problem; we're hamstrung by the fact that there are so many police/HEMS operators competing against eachother and driving down prices. That makes the margins in this game very tight and low margins means poor wages. Why should DE units offer much if they think there's still a reasonable chance they'll be able to poach someone from one of the companies? A little of me wants to see all in-shore operators struggle to recruit. That's the only way we'll see an improvement in our lot.
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True, I do know that a number of units are investigating the possibilities of direct employ because of price rises. That may affect pay rates.... Who knows??
I agree with you about being undervalued, but as long as there are mugs like me who will accept low wages, pay will not change. |
Is that as a timeshare salesman or drug dealer? ;)
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"Boat" being the clue, I suspect.... :D
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Get back to the UK and whinge along with the rest of us Flungdung!
:p Ah! How I revel in those stupefyingly long tailbacks stretching into the distance under dark, oppressive skies, the succulent ecstasy of plastic supermarket sandwiches and pesticidal coke just for a modest nothing of a wage. All whilst watching my already inadequate pension being further eroded by good old Gordon! :rolleyes: |
Perhaps for a DE unit, they should be offering something better? Annual increments / yr for first 2 yrs. Pension (final salary) Overtime based on a 37hr week. Very generous LOL 31 days off /annum |
The thing is.......you leave the military(and these are the pilots flying for the police in the uk) in need of job because you normally have a morgage and all the trappings of life to pay for and if there is a job going for the police/hems then unless you have 2 heads you have a good chance of employment. But if guys keep excepting these low wages(and 45k isn't that low) the companies will keep offering them. But there is a bit of a trend of people looking else where after the bigger pay packets now the market is so good.
Are police pilots a member of BALPA?:cool: |
Best way out of the police / AA low pay trap is to get an IR.
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F'dung,
I agree with what your saying. But why should you have to take your well earned pension into account? I know its a great job a few of my friends do it.............. But they weren't so lucky in finding a vacancy near to their homes. |
Don't get hung up on the 45K. A lot of DE police pilots earn considerably more than that around the UK and it will undoubtedly be reviewed soon in light of recent market forces but you can't advertise that can you. The main attraction for an ex mil pilot is job security, gold plated pension and stability.
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Thanks for bringing the extra information to our attention MightyGem.
I don't want to get into petty arguments over the semantics of the deal but you are pushing the extras as if they were something to get really excited about. The only thing worthy of note in that package is the final salary pension which is a scarce commodity these days. I would be interested to know the specifics of that. :8 |
Great thread and very timely as Im looking to shortly return from a foreign land and get back into the onshore scene in UK. Left PAS some years ago when they offered their floaters less of a pay rise than the others. The job seems to now have longer shifts with only a few more £ for the priveledge. It is up to the rank and file pilot to show his disquiet at the pay structure as those who provide bums on seats have no incentive to increase the level of salary. Indeed that is probably where the companies profit comes from!
No rotary IR, so whats the alternative? |
A typical pension of the type offered usually would equate to 18-20% extra salary put into your own pension fund (with the associated ups and downs of the open markets), and an associated lump sum on retirement with payouts and cover for illness and death in service. I guess that an offer of c.£53,000 with cast iron benefits might sound more tempting!
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If what you're saying is accurate Dr Honeydew then now we're starting to get somewhere? So the adjusted estimate equates to about £53K?
:hmm: I suppose we're just starting to get into commercial turboprop captain territory which, some would argue, would be a reasonable comparator. Therin lies the problem. What should we compare ourselves to? Come on folks! Let's cut to the chase. How much would we like to see offered? (I'm talking right across the in-shore market here) :E |
Thank you for the more constructive observations. I am constrained within the public sector pay restraints to be able to convince my employers of 'our' true worth. At the end of the day, a pilots package rests uncomfortably amongst those around him/her in the police world and takes time to be accepted.
I can assure you, that this 'package' for an entry level police line pilot, will escalate past the 50K mark very very quickly. That, in my opinion, is satisfactory remuneration for the post. The market (highlighted by the official response to this and other adverts) is definitely changing. [Quality] pilots are most definitely in short supply, almost all the service providers are experiencing difficulties in this area and as mentioned earlier, the military pool has all but dried up as their lords and masters 'fixed' that problem some years ago. I believe we are at the beginning of a market correction for better pay which has been a long time overdue. But what do you expect with an industry so small and so disjointed - no union to speak of. Market forces have finally taken charge of us rather than the other way round. The new framework agreement has all but put paid to future contract pilotage [£100,000 for a contract pilot???]. Perhaps our time has come? Helicpter pilots will never become rich - but is that the aim of the game? |
Hmmm
I dont do it for the money.... it the love for the job.... :eek:
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At the end of the day, a pilot's package rests uncomfortably ... Cheers Whirls |
The vacancy for a Line Pilot at Lancashire Constabulary Air Support Unit has finally appeared in Flight International. The minimum requirements for this post are as follows:
UK ATPL/H or JAA CPL/H 2000 Hrs Helicopters 1500 Hrs PIC Overland To include a significant proportion of Low Flying and 500 Hrs Twin Turbine. Previous PAOC experience and an 135 rating would be desirable. Applicants must be willing to relocate to within 45 mins of our base here at BAE Systems Warton Aerodrome. Closing date for applications is 1st May 2007. I have been authorised by our UEO to mention that if you fall just outside the minimum requirements, then you should still consider putting in an application. The contact address is: Lancashire Constabulary Human Resources H Division Operations PO Box 77 Hutton Preston PR4 5SB |
Out of interest, NLJ, have you just lost one or has a new position been made available?
Please feel free to answer via PM if you would prefer. Thanks, B73 |
Our Chief Pilot is going onto bigger and better things which has created the vacancy. For those that don't know, we have 4 Pilots here at Lancs working a 12 hour shift, 2 Days 2 Nights 4 Days Off Rota.
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Thanks.
wibble wwibble wibble |
Poor pay in Police Air Support Industry
The simple solution is that the pilots have to get organised under one banner like BALPA to have any chance of changing their terms and conditions of employment. Premiair are a classic example whereby they divide and rule. There is not standard scale of pay, they make it up as they go along. Nobody actually knows what any one else is getting because it is not published and there are no inducements for loyalty/productivity.
What will circa £40,000 get you at a von Essen hotel? Receptionist, Doorman. Get organised and represented, go on strike and see if they sit up and take note. Hit them in the pocket it is the only way they learn. |
Hi Kernow, consider yourself promoted; you are now UEO of a police unit and are totally responsible for the budget! What terms and conditions will you offer a non-instrument rated pilot and what is the starting salary?
Cheers TeeS |
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