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Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)
This is really a carry over from TC's medical thread which veered onto this subject. Last year I wrote to my MP about this and he passed on the reply from Sir Roy McNulty, Chairman of the CAA.
I offer a brief quote, "I must therefore advise you that we are not prepared to extend licence privileges beyond those in current legislation unless or until we are given a clear indication that we will be required to do so in the future" In my words then, "The CAA will do what the Government orders them to do, but the Government will do what the CAA advises them". Nice circular Catch 22! I know, let's do nothing, its easier! Here is a link to the CAA website that is of interest to all of us beyond the first flush of youth! http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/43/Age%20D...egislation.pdf If the link doesn't work go into www.caa.co.uk and search using "age discrimination" In my view if you can pass the medical, what's the prob? |
Sadly BJ as an industry we have let ourselves down. We are facing a desperate shortage of experience but rather than band together and make a serious attack on the situation via BHAB and BALPA we have watched one or two individuals such as Uncle Ian put their heads above the parapet and then sat back and waited for a result.
At any meeting of operators these days the cry of where are the next generation and can we keep the old guys going is the most frequently heard sound. The next generation are being stymied by the sheer cost of the qualifications and don't yet have the experience for the job. The old guys who have all the experience are now falling off the perch at a scary rate of knots and our beloved CAA seem to be ignoring the potential safety problems. Maybe they see it as a way to finally close us down and get rid of the problem that way. If a pilot can pass the medical and all his checks then he is as far as I'm concerned fit to fly single pilot public transport. At this firm we have lost three first class freelancers to public transport this year due to age. Strange how they still pass the meds, still pass the checks and are still allowed to fly the aircraft owners privately over the same landscape they were flying over last year. The CAA and BHAB are paid for by us, the operators. Perhaps its time we decided they are past it and paid someone else to regulate and represent us. Knowing my luck by the time I'm due to go retirement will have gone up to seventy. |
Don't you just love the CAA clinging to arbitrary regulations.....resulting from their "discretionary powers"?
They will quickly point out the presence of "waivers" to the rule or regulation but then immediately tell you that is not their policy (granting waivers as set forth in the rule/regulation). Bottom line....to make any changes requires some Jobsworth to make a decision that can be tracked back to him and thus be held accountable for having made that decision. It is far easier for them to point at the rule, reg, or memo and smile and say "Nope! No...have to follow the rule here!" There are Offshore pilots in their mid-70's and who have had hip replacements still flying in the Gulf of Mexico. As long as they can fog mirrors and toddle to the aircraft and remember how to find home and pass a class II medical exam....they are good to go in the FAA system. |
I think I'm right in the belief that BHAB are looking into this...I'll raise it at the next emergency services sub committee next month.
What we are looking at here is the emergence of a ground swell of activity against this discrimination. Hopefully it will develop its own momentum to be able to successfully challenge what we will look back on as plainly an illegal practice. |
Originally Posted by Sassy Dahling
Bottom line....to make any changes requires some Jobsworth to make a decision that can be tracked back to him and thus be held accountable for having made that decision.
The whole of the Public Sector is petrified of making a decision. Everyone is scared of being sued or being seen to be partisan. Every decision has to go through reports, presentations, sub-committees (Lawd help yer Thomas!), main committees by which time the purpose of the initial proposal has suddenly been lost. The CAA like to try to think they operate like Private Sector commercial organisation but they are still a Quango and still suffer from the immovable machinery mentality that existed from the days of being within the Civil Service. The watchword that all these Quangos is scared of is DIVERSITY. That's the key. I'm not being facile either. Cheers Whirls |
Ifr you want an example of lack of logic in the system, how about this: Being over 65 I can't fly public transport any more, but to examine for a commercial skills test, I have to maintain a commercial licence and (expensively) a class one medical. This when the guy in the other seat is by definition already a qualified pilot and could fly the helicopter if I keeled over.
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Rotorfossil thinks it's illogical. When I reached 65 I got myself an Australian licence to continue flying in the Far East. The company I am working for are bringing a British registered aircraft in for a short term contract. They would like me to fly it but I can't on my British licence because I am over 65. If they rubbed out the G reg and replaced it with a VH reg then I could fly the same aircraft with the same passengers over the same route with no trouble at all.
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FAA to propose pilot retirement age change from 60 to 65 WASHINGTON, D.C. — Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator Marion C. Blakey today announced that the FAA will propose to raise the mandatory retirement age for U.S. commercial pilots from 60 to 65. Speaking before pilots and aviation experts at the National Press Club, Blakey said that the agency plans to propose adopting the new International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard that allows one pilot to be up to age 65 provided the other pilot is under age 60. The FAA plans to issue a formal Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) later this year and will publish a final rule after careful consideration of all public comments, as required by law. “A pilot’s experience counts — it’s an added margin of safety,” said Blakey. “Foreign airlines have demonstrated that experienced pilots in good health can fly beyond age 60 without compromising safety.” On September 27, 2006, Administrator Blakey established a group of airline, labor and medical experts to recommend whether the United States should adopt the new ICAO standard and determine what actions would be necessary if the FAA were to change its rule. The Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) did not reach a consensus recommendation but did provide detailed insight and analysis that will be helpful as the FAA develops a rule. Since 1959, the FAA has required that all U.S. pilots stop flying commercial airplanes at age 60. In November 2006, ICAO, the United Nations’ aviation organization, increased the upper age limit for pilots to age 65, provided that the other pilot is under age 60. The November 29, 2006 Age 60 ARC report, appendices, and public comments are available online at http://dms.dot.gov, docket number 26139. (FAA Release No. AOC 03-07 January 30, 2007) |
Maybe there's light at the end of a loooooooong tunnel? skadi |
Exactly, this is the FAA catching up with the rest of the world for a change!!
What about single pilot commercial flying age limits??? |
I read all this, agreed and decided to get in on the No 10 e-petition
bandwagon Link: Single Pilot age limit So come on then, lets be having you..... |
Done, though my enthusiasm for 12 hr night shifts at 64 3/4 is somewhat diminished...
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PM's petition page
Hi,
I've read your petition, why stop at age 65? Any age limit in my view is discriminatory. Pilots & not just pilots, should be free to retire when they wish to do so, not when forced to do so by the bureaucracy. However, I think you're going to continue to lose on this one because I suspect the Insurance Industry will drive the premiums up if over 65 pilots continue to fly public transport? with fraternal greetings, ambi |
Stopping at 65 because every other professional pilot has to! (in UK anyway)
Droopy, I'm not sure I'll want to shuffle out to the ac when I'm gone 60 either. I'm also not sure whether the Observers will look after my zimmer frame properly. i just want the right to!:O |
I quite agree: 65 is just as discriminatory as 60 :=
Re word the petition to remove any age limit, otherwise it won't have any credence with the Bureaucrats: they will be able to bin it without any trouble at all :ouch: |
I've signed it.
I think when I'm 64 1/2 I'll be a lot happier tootling around doing short pleasure flights than teaching autorotations to cackhanded students twice my size who seem determined to kill us...and that's legal now! Yes, any age discrimination should be outlawed, but let's start somewhere. |
Thanks for setting this up Handy. Name added!
Do coach and bus drivers have any 60+ limits? |
Excellent and very constructive idea Andy - well done and thanks.
I will spread the word through the BHAB, PEUG and local networking from my end. My worry continues to be: The only people who will suffer from this are those commercial pilots (single) in charter/some corporate/emergency services. That's it! No-one else is affected. That must amount to, what....300 pilots, if that. Is this enough to change legislation. |
TC,
They once altered UK legislation to allow Sikhs the permission to ride motorbikes without Helmets, now there aint many of those people compared with the rest of us Brits, Vfr Peter R-B:D |
"They once altered UK legislation to allow Sikhs the permission to ride motorbikes without Helmets, now there aint many of those people compared with the rest of us Brits,"
that could be read as being very effective legislation!!!:ugh: |
The only people who will suffer from this are those commercial pilots (single) in charter/some corporate/emergency services. That's it! No-one else is affected. That must amount to, what....300 pilots, if that. Cheers Whirls |
Vfr PilotPB/2 –
Perhaps we should clarify that you can be Sikh and British! You make a very valid point though! I find it slightly inconsistent that employers are being told that they cannot discriminate against an individual because of their age. In addition to that, you are no longer required, or obliged, to put your D.O.B on your C.V! An yet – perfectly healthy, competent Air Crew are being told that they can no longer earn a living by doing what they have done for the last ‘x’ amount of years, whilst being told that they are going to have to work longer?? Bus/Coach drivers are not required to stop working at 60 or 65! It is until such time as their medical expires. I would suggest that the principle is the same. A bus driver can transport 50, 60 or 70 school children on his/her bus at any age – why should it be any different for a pilot? We’re all agreed – but I wonder how long it will take change this rule? I would suggest that 300 pilots is a conservative estimate too. XD |
What is even more inconsistent is that the pilot who has reached age 60 and cannot pilot, say, a Jet Ranger on a pleasure flight, can be an instructor.
If someone is deemed fit enough to be an instructor, why can't they undertake PT work? The rules are nonsensical and inconsistent within themselves let alone the contradiction with the new "ageism" legislation. Cheers Whirls |
Whirls,
You're right!! Very well said!! I know of a commercial pilot who is about to have to stop doing his day job, because he has reached 60. A couple of months ago he did his 22 rating and will now do a bit of instructing so that he is not out of the aviation environment, which he enjoys so much and of course to bring in some extra income. I suppose we can take some comfort from knowing that the people that do make the rules up are consistently inconsistent?! Like MBJ says - if you can pass the medical, what's the problem?! XD |
........ at last the safety of pilots to age 65 for public transport operations has been ratified by ICAO and agreed in UK by the CAA..........
.......so its now the obligation of UK employers to provide the means to do this (dual controls fitted and another pilot under 60) for their age 60 pilots, otherwise the employers will fall foul of the EU age discrimination law! |
I assume that an instructor (aged, say 63) can teach a student (aged, say 67)?
Barking mad rules! A 60 year old cannot fly a BBC cameraman on a filming flight but, if that cameraman were an employee of the operator, then he can?! So, in addition to all the other bonkers inconsistencies, the employment status of the passenger makes a difference :ugh: Cheers Whirls |
Whirls,
As I said recently on another thread, since when has aviation law had anything whatsoever to do with logic? |
I know love, but it irritates me when something isn't logical. :8
Just as an aside, the legal maximum age for a Company Secretary of a plc is 70; just thought you'd all like to know that! Cheers Whirls |
I don't have a problem with age limits if based on scientific and statistical evidence. What annoys me particularly is the inconsistencies. No you can't fly public transport after 65. Yes you can instruct newby pilots who have never been in an aircraft before (whats the difference from paying passengers?). Yes you can examine pilots for their commercial licences but you have to maintain a Class One medical with the extra expenses like stress ECG's at about £400 a throw. Yes you can examine commercial and private pilots for their recurrent LPC's (licence proficiency checks) and renewals. No you can't examine commercial pilots for their OPC's (which have the same content). Why not? Because one is under Schedule 8 (licensing) and the other comes under Schedule 9 (public transport) of the ANO.
Subside into corner muttering and sucking thum. |
Having had my 'sod off' letter from Jobsworth have signed Andy's petition. Many thanks Andy.
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Anno Domini
Dennis K will be rolling on to 75 next October.
I've held a class one since 1972 and a Royal Air Force medical for a few years before that. Every three years I'm off to LGW for my 'stress ECG' which they like to call 'an exercise ECG' these days. As I said to the lady last time. "I sweat more on a fast run down to my local pub!" I'm an ex 4min 16 sec miler and anyone out there over 50 want to run alongside me over a mile tomorrow. In 2002 I took part in the world freestyle championships and did so again in 2005. I'm legal to fly with an 'ab initio' student, but not legal to take punters to Silverstone. I plan to take part in the 2008 world champiohips and wouldn't it be great to be the oldest guy in the world to win a world championship event. All this to really say. Hold a class one medical, (stress ecg et al) remain competent in the air and let me exercise the priviledges of my ATPL. Dreaming. DRK |
What is this stress ECG thingy?
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Dennis - everyone knows you are unique old boy. A genuine 1 percentile as they say in the medical world. How can any normal pleb hold a candle to you?
May you still have many fruitful flights to come.:D As you go onto say - you could be flying next to an ab initio pilot of say 17 and decide to pop your clogs on his second trip...what then perchance? A 60 yr old these days is the 1950's equivalent of a 75 yr old (then). The system is still 20+ yrs behind. I have received an e-mail from the CAA today telling me they have re convened a workgroup to look once more at the retirement age for single pilot commercial ops. Let's hope that this new generation CAA understands that we are now in the 21st century and things have moved on somewhat. Whirly - to jump the gun perhaps, a stress ECG is done whilst on a running machine where the platform tilts to simulate an incline. This is the ultimate ECG test to determine that if anything is going bang, it will happen then! They have to have a trauma team on standby in case the old ticker goes into cardiac arrest! But it is a very routine test nowadays for anyone who needs to be checked out by the CAA thoroughly for ticker flicker!!! I presume Dennis that something has come up on previous ECG's and this is their safety net? |
The Age thing
Thanks TC ... for the nice comments. Hope I can live up to them !! (the clogs are always waiting!)
I'm told that current policy is to stress ECG all the 'over 70s. I'm naturally happy with that cos I do want to die in my bed. Not at 1500 feet ! Second topic perhaps. I'm about to do a piece for Loop on UK medivac helis. Any contributions on the ideal machine for the task ? DRK |
I've had to do a stress ECG each year for the past 9. It takes between 9 & 12 minutes depending on what your heart is doing, hopefully still ticking! I'm glad to see that Dennis is still older than me but unfortunately he sounds a lot fitter! At least in Oz, CASA is not so tough on us oldies & believe if we are healthy enough, then we are good enough.:)
Coming to think of it as I did my first flying medical in Oct 1954, I'm still happy that nearly 53 years later, I can still pass it. It's just that I don't remember how!:ok: |
cos I do want to die in my bed. Not at 1500 feet ! Cheers Whirls |
No disrespect Dennis, but I always find it strange how some of these journals ask somebody who is not in the trade to do a piece on it??
Why don't you throw the offer out generally on here, you'd get some excellent snippets for your contribution. By the way, in the UK they don't use the term medivac. Its either HEMS, or Air Ambulance. Medivac is the generic term. Light twin: EC135 [flies 2 patients, reliable and maintenance is minimal.]. Medium: S76. PS: Patients don't like aerobatics...OK:= |
The 'CEO of the cockpit' has an view at http://www.avweb.com/news/ceocockpit/194397-1.html
I can understand why, in the light of long previous experience that the current system can change, (ie. a captain at age 60 does not suddenly become unsafe overnight), but I can also sympathise with the feelings of a future captain who suddenly sees their promotion date extend by possibly another 5 years. |
Thomas Coupling wrote: By the way, in the UK they don't use the term medivac. Its either HEMS, or Air Ambulance. Medivac is the generic term. skadi |
I always find it strange how some of these journals ask somebody who is not in the trade to do a piece on it?? |
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