EE.........I am with you mate. I spent a year with the airline industry (Air France) and have flown military fixed wing. My soul, passion, heart and way of life is rotary. I am HM Forces, but that is not the point........its the passion, do you look up into the sky when something flys over, do watch/read flying related stuff, do you enjoy 36,000 feet or 50 feet on goggles/FLIR. Those are the true questions. Underachieving is just mudslinging as if you really want to do something you'll do it (medical permitting) even if it means working in Mac Donalds for 50 years to get your ATPL.

Some people like the airline ' I'll have the chicken please' way of life others prefer the 'wobble heads'. If you are up there looking at someone else then life is too short and you are either too lazy to change or you don't have the true flying bug/passion previously talked about. Just like some people like blondes, others brunettes....we are all different with mutual respect.

I know that I could impress a BA Captain by doing NVG under wires in poor viz..........on the other hand he could impress the socks off me by sorting out a serious emergency IMC, just after take off or just about to land with 300 pax down the back.....its all relative. I don't want his job and I doubt if he wants mine!

:)

TC you refer to getting out of bed and the coyote refers to motorcycles. In your case I've heard that you were lucky to get out of bed after your experiences with motorcycles - true or false?

As for me, I'd rather be a merchant banker (left or right handed) or a fund manager. They are always on the make and only the clients lose:p

Heliport
So far your numbers are not stacking up. Those who are so happy are doing what I mentioned, is not the bulk of the industry.....
Lets here it from some guys on Contract for some Geologists in Alaska, or some GOMER stuck on a platform......See what kind of pay, benefits and security they have.....
I think this is about over.....Flaredamit and I can hold them at the pass.......

So...,

One big question in my mind now is: If it's so bad for the few of you, whay are you still here? Is someone holding a gun to your head making you hang with us neurotic underachievers? If the grass is so much greener on the other side, get after it - climb the fence and go. (Could it be that I'm not the underachiever in this discussion?)

Why are you folks so upset that I, along with some others here, should be happy and comfortable doing what I/ we do? It sounds to me like you are condeming everyone else for the poor choice or choices you made (and continue to make) for yourselves (rationalization).

Bert, what's the "military thing" have to do with this discussion? By your own admission...:

*** "I also did the military thing and those folks should be eliminated from this as they also make a good living with benefits and retirement....... " ***

...your opinion should be eliminated and deleted from the thread. Hey, that's what happens when you try to change the rules after the ball's in the air. (BTW, I started 30 years ago, did everything on my own - zero military - my own money, blood, sweat, NO tears and NO whining. I've been a line pilot doing those things you mentioned - and I was, and still am happy and content). Please don't try and load the jury box. IMHO, assuming everyone here is a pilot - military background or not - line pilot, corporate pilot, LE pilot or whatever pilot, each deserves equal press.

Further, this thread's question is not a debate about unions (that's the "other" websight), it's a debate over personal preferences and whether we would make the same choices again.

Just so you know when you start throwing stones at me; I am considered a line pilot. In this position, I am making $48K and will "top out" at around $55K USD (notwithstanding any future [non-guaranteed] cost of living allowances). I consciously made the decision to take this position over quite a few others - most offering a much better salary. I have everything that I desire and enough money left over to play at whatever it is I choose. I do not have any supplemental incomes. I'm not hoping to advance in the company as I've "been there and done that" - all the way to the top.

Now, please, direct me to the "Big Book of Life" that sets forth the criterion for personal happiness and show me the paragraph that madates that I have to be a miserable SOB while living the life I have chosen so I can see what the fuss is all about.

Again, to robpowell69, Whirly, and the other aspiring pilots looking in on the debate, best of luck, keep pluggin' away and make yourselves happy. In all my travels, it's been my observation that, no mater what the chosen field, no mater what the salary or conditions, there's always going to be someone standing around, crying and complaining.

C Ya

*********
"We all wear the chains we forge in life"

Desert Dude
Take it back to square one. Heliport brought up something about the bulk of folks in the Helicopter Industry are happy campers. Thats when I said something too the effect of low pay, no retirement etc.
Those who responded were saying they have great jobs and great pay etc. Those folks were not the bulk of the industry. and I walked on that a few posts back.
Military Thing....Military pilots today have good pay, benefits and retirement. I admit though as of late they also have their fair share of deployments. But for someone in the Military who isnt happy, I say come on out and join some tour company or others mentioned and see what kind of future there is....
By the Way I didnt Start this thread.....Heliport used my name.....
Once again, I AM NOT unhappy with flying helicopters, I love it too.....but I did not have to do it for a career. I just happened to have flown for 33 years, lately for some lunch money.....
P.S. If your happy with $48k topping at $55k in this day and age, your goals are not that high. I do hope you are not satisfied there and, as you mentioned, plan to advance or move on where you can. Great for you, but today anything less than $80-100k/yr is not going to help much at the other end.
But thats your choice.
I have yet to see some GOMER/EMS guy in here, albeit I did get an email from one who is driving a nice new EMS rig and working his ass off for less than you get........Ah, but he loves it....
Good Luck

...And here I was getting to feel kinda bad because Desert Dude seemed to have a job that made him deliriously happy. I figured he really must have hit the motherload! I mean, in a previous post, he said:

"I'm not trying to rain on your parade here Bert but I'm getting:

1. Adequate pay,
2. Retirement,
3. I own my own place and when I'm away from la casa the crew quarters are top of the line, (I even get a company car)
4. Can't do anything about the hours - that's the nature of "the beast", but I do get compensated accordingly,
5. I get to fly fairly new and extremely well maintained aircraft,
6. Job security? Who has job security - anywhere? Be honest?
7. Within reason and actual conditions, no one exceeds either their personal or the aircraft's operational capabilities. In the same context we are expected to operate to our (and aircraft) limits when called upon to do so.

And I've never considered myself to be an underacheiver. I happen to like what I do and I choose to stay in the business (for thirty years now)..."


Wow! Thirty years! He must really be making some coin by now, eh? But wait! Then he posts...


"Just so you know when you start throwing stones at me; I am considered a line pilot. In this position, I am making $48K and will "top out" at around $55K USD..."


Oh. My. God.

This guy has been in this industry for THIRTY YEARS and he's only making $48,000 per year?!?!

I'm really, really, really glad that Desert Dude gets such personal satisfaction out of his job. But I would suggest that if he ever attends a dinner party at which a psychologist or psychiatrist is also invited, he doesn't admit his salary. The aforementioned health care professional might take him on pro bono.

Hey, you know what? "Job satisfaction" has to weigh-in there someplace. It's not 100% about money, I know that. I didn't spend nearly twenty years as a line pilot for nuthin'. (Oh wait...or did I?) But I really have to wonder about someone who would spend thirty years in an industry and only be making $48,000/year. When I quit PHI - not my first flying job- I was at the thirteen-year level and had just clicked into the $50,000/year level. Good-bye!

In closing, Desert Dude ain't exactly a poster boy for how great this industry is, no matter how much he enjoys it. At least, let's hope not. I sincerely hope that Rob Powell (the original poster) hasn't picked up on this thread. He'll run from helicopters faster that an altar boy from Fr. O'Brien.

Bert Sousa

All Heliport said to the Wannabee's question was That's a fair summary of what people regularly say here, and what most people are saying now.

I'd do it again. The money isn't great compared with the major airlines but for me the fact that I enjoy going to work every day makes up for that. I get paid for doing somethign I love doing - to my mind that's worth big bucks itself. I'd hate going to an office every day.

It's good you put the other point of view Bert - it's made a good discussion.

Flare Dammit
Sure psychiatrists, lawyers, captains of industry etc earn a lot more. You've got to compare jobs at the same sort of level.

Flare:

Having looked thru your inputs to this thread, whether you want to believe it or not, you're bottom line is:
MONEY :(

Just take a look at your responses.

Now that this has been clarified, what do the following have in common (in your view):

Nurses
priests
teachers
firecrew
police officers
social workers

apparently they are all under achievers......
they don't earn much and there is no career structure. They struggle with their daily tasking working all hours, abused by their managers, etc etc. Isn't this what you've been telling helo drivers for the last few days? WHY DO THEY DO IT?

Don't throw that old chestnut at me that there is a career structure with airline pilots you get to become captain and thats it. The rest is all about MONEY.
Next you'll be telling me that being an airline pilot is on a par with a consultant/chief accountant/barrister...get a life flare, ANYONE CAN BE A PILOT (FW or Helo). You don't need to be a rocket scientist to be one..you need DRIVE and enthusiasm. It's not HARDER to become a FW jockey, in fact it's probably harder to become a helo pilot (costs, etc) So why doesn't everyone become a plankdriver?

Wake up and smell the coffee sunshine, get off your high horse and accept reality......there are those of us out here who unfortunately don't want to fly a plank...sorry old boy :eek:

YES. The grass is always greener, i always enjoy the stories my airlines mates tell me about where theyve been and what theyve seen, very few stories about their flying because its all routine.

What i consider routine in helicopters is almost held in awe by our fixed wing brethern.

What they do, i think is pretty good too.

If you dont like helos there are other jobs you can do.

Would i do it again, you betcha.

Helicopter flying is like ----ing, its great fun, just dont tell everyone how often you do it!:) :)

Update on this unrepresentative, unscientific (but very interesting) survey ...........

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thumbs.gif
Roundagain
DesertDude
Steve76
Up&Away
Stevie Terrier
Nick Lappos
What-ho Squiffy!
buttline
Nigel Osborn
Max ng
What Limits
HeliMark
Thomas Coupling
The Coyote
John Eacott
SASless
Rotorbike
BlenderPilot
Ethereal Entity
Soggy Boxers
Grey Man
Hoverman
Sling Load


http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/boohoo.gif
Bert Sousa
"Those folks (above) are not the bulk of the industry."
(Loves it really, probably would do it again, but helping the debate! ;) )

Flare Dammit
"I'm convinced that most helicopter pilots are neurotic nutjobs." :eek:

I guess it just depends which is most important to you: money or job satisfaction/fun. And how much you like flying helicopters.

One more thumbs up !1
 

Absolutely !!

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/engel/engel017.gif

Flippin Heck! I didnt check the forum untill a few days after my original wannabe posting. Didnt expect to open a big can of worms. Theres some good stuff here though raising all the issues involved with choosing heli flyin. Cheers Heliport for the no nonsense honest overveiw and to the rest for joining in.

People accuse me of being a mercenary...just being interested in the money. As if being paid a decent salary for something technical and challenging is somehow...wrong.

Heh-heh, I get a big kick out of these wierd helicopter pilots who wear their pathetic salaries like some friggin' badge of honor. ...As if they're PROUD to forego a respectable, honorable salary just to be able to say, "I love what I do!" ...As if the very IDEA of being paid well for who we are and what we do is repugnant. It's like they feel guilty about getting paid for something so enjoyable, and the pis*-poor salaries are the unavoidable penance we endure for it. I know them well - because I was one of them for more years than I care to count.

I'm better now.

Okay, I'll bite. What do:

Nurses
priests
teachers
firecrew
police officers
social workers

...all have in common? Well, for one thing, they all serve a "greater good" in society. To do that sort of work, one must have a special calling. But let's ask ourselves what helicopter pilots do for society? Answer: Not a damn thing. We ferry spoiled CEO's around? We ferry oil workers back and forth to the rigs/platforms? We ferry tourists around NYC and El Canyon Grande? Oh yeah, well, some of us fly air ambulances...but the debate rages whether or not such pilots actually "save lives" or just drive the machine.

I've always been amused by the dichotomy of helicopter pilots. On one hand, they have such HUGE egos, yet on the other they seem to have such low self-esteem. It's strange. Many think they're truly God's gift to aviation (a belief that may or may not be privately held), yet at the same time they allow themselves to be horribly abused by their employers in the name of "job satisfaction."

Throughout my career, I've met many, many pilots who had the barest, most gossamer connection with aviation other than what they did when they were specifically on-duty. They subscribed to no aviation magazines, did not read newsgroups such as this one, did not keep abreast of happenings within our industry, and in general had surprisingly little interest in helicopters at all! Yet if you asked - and even if you didn't, all of these pilots would tell you they were consummate professionals and experts at their job and in their field.

My questions to them about advances in TCAS or avionics would be met with blank stares. If it did not directly effect them, they weren't interested. And nevermind asking a question about some aviation topic other than helicopters!

I've studied helicopter pilots all my life (my dad was one before I was born). I entered this business full-time in 1976. I've always wanted to know what made helicopter pilots tick? And after all these years, I haven't the faintest clue. I've made a lot of observations, and come to a bunch of conclusions, but I do not know what drives men to be so oddly passionate about these wierd machines. Only that they are.

Would I become a professional pilot all over again? CERTAINLY! Would I become a professional helicopter pilot again? Well...ahh...umm..."maybe." Yeah, okay, I would. Just maybe not at first. And of the eighteen years that I spent as a full-time helicopter pilot, I readily would've given up the last thirteen spent out in the Gulf o'Mejico. No offense meant to any of the great people I've met and friends I've made along the way, but I stayed in this strange industry for faaaaar too long.

...Until it was almost too late.

Flare it,

Apart from being a bit twitter and bisted, you sound awfully like Bob B., who always seemed such a nice sort of fellow :cool:

That's not even funny, Eacott. I heard he died.

Flare Dammit, after all the bitcing and moaning, you tell us you would become a professional helicopter pilot again! Not only are you contradictory, you are also illogical in your arguments; insinuating that helicopter pilots know ******-all aboout fixed wing and/or hi-tech aviation. Try asking the average airline pilot about anything other than airline-secific aviation, and you might get a surprise.

The problem with you is that you see the world like the multi-level marketing converts - you cannot see why absolutely everyone isn't involved in this fantastic, bullet-proof way of making shed-loads of money, and everyone that isn't involved in it is either deluded or insane. The thing is that not everyone sees remuneration as the defining criteria for an occupation. People that do are uni-dimensional pains in the tailskid.

You must be great to have a beer with at the end of the day - sitting at the end of the bar, alone...with all your mates, moaning about your lousy pay.

Cheers!

Flare seems to be taking fire so I found a little ditty that should take a bit of the heat off.
Someone on just helos posted a site for "Pay Comparison". I dont think the numbers are WHAT is being paid rather WHAT SHOULD be paid. However its something for DesertDude to look at as it shows his goal in life to be about 25% lower than the lowest on the scale. I see the low scale for Las Vegas was in the $60k/yr range and Im certain that the tour drivers here, and I know EMS are getting much less on a per year basis. They comprise most of the local Helicopter Pilots...

http://usatoday.salary.com/salarywiz...54&image1.y=17

Click on this site and it should work. Plug in your own city. The salarys on this scale would give a comfortable living and be more in line with the work than the numbers I previously posted. MY numbers were in line as to what a good Professional should make as an average so that there is something on the other end (thats Retirement). Not all Helicopter companies have those things called Benefits. Mainly because a lot of the workers are seasonal, firefighters, tours etc. And thats a big share of the Pilot Pool...
And Yes I still love Helicopters....

Hmm. I think Flare it has a problem with life which wouldn't be solved if he was paid a vaaast amount for his helicoptering skills. You really can't lambast folk for actually being quite happy with their lot in life. Clearly money is not the only issue - my best (yester)year as an R22 instructor was £42k gross but even though instructing was fun, eventually - like everything you do day after day it can become dull... A co-pilot job offered to me Up North paid 27k but the routine put me off ( or was it the proper job aspect, and HAVING to report for work?!) I still fly singles, do not instruct, am very poor and some days I hate helicopters, But if I was told I could never fly a helicopter (or aeroplane,sorry!) again I'd be gutted.It's what I do - fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly etc etc
So to summarise: I have spent a fortune to get my licences, and sometimes I hate what I do; but would I do it again? Of course I bloody would!! Flare it life is ****ty sometimes but at least its better than no life which evidently is what you have(nt) got. I bet you were still One of Us in the beginning: 'I could could fly all day and every day, just for food, 'an I wouldn't even need to be paid, mista..'
PS I still want to be a bush pilot.....

Hey Bert, Hey Flare, (and all the rest),

Sorry I missed the past day or so, been out eeking out my pittance (gosh, have I been having fun!). Some intersting stuff been posted here since I last looked in!

Thought I'd expound on my miserable little life a little, for Flare's sake. OK, Bert, you may as well read along too, although neither of you will like it much.

Flare, you seem very concerned that, OH MY GOD, after thirty years I'm only pulling in, WHAT!?! Well, let's look at this a little closer. Please, keep in mind throughout my rambling that I have not worked in any other field - helicopters only - for the past thirty years.

I'm not a bit sorry to say this, Flare, but I do feel as though I have hit the mother load. You're choosing to ignore several important things that I have said and using the rest in an attempt to convince everyone else here they should be as miserable as you and Bert because of their personal choices in life.

To start, I've been in the gulf, I flew EMS, fires, seismic, etc. I've sat on the four pile platforms in "Vermillion 4 million" for six hours in the middle of August, with no wind, sniffing the four layers of seagull ****t covering the deck. So what if Boudreaux did make a little more than I did. You know those dudes - honestly, would you have traded lives with any of them? Not me, OK? Things like that were an inconvenience at most. Geeze, I didn't get pissed at my life and sell my house just because the mesquite roots grew through my sewer line, I simply did what I had to do and made the best of it (you'll never hear me say my ****t don't stink).

Bert, I think you misread into my previous post a little - the reason I am I'm not looking to advance is because I've already been there. I've done it - I enjoyed it while I was there, but I no longer want to be in that position. I want to take the orders, "do the Dew", have the fun, sling the load, it's what I feel I do best, or have the most fun at anyway. I want my toughest decision of the day to be; "where am I going to eat dinner?".

Would it help to tell you two that in the previous eighteen months I have chosen NOT to accept five great offers (the operative word being; chosen)? Would it help to tell you that one offer started in the low six figures after "performance pay", two started in the mid eighties, one in the mid sixties and the fifth I didn't get as far as asking about the salary?

Would it help to tell you several years ago I gave up a managerial/ pilot position for a small operator, that I was making $90K+ with unbelievable perks?

You're right, Flare, I'm not a poster boy for anything and never wanted to be (besides being a neurotic, delusional underachiever, I'm not much to look at and, well, a poster of me would be rather comic if not sad). I guess what I'm trying to say here is, I believe that if I can be successful at jobs such as these, anyone can. With your experience (Flare and Bert) why aren't you in these positions. I haven't done anything you haven't done. You have just as much experience as I do - maybe more. You're probably better aviators to boot - I don't know - don't care. These jobs are real, they're out there. Granted, they may not happen along every other day, but what's a year in the grand scheme of things?

Let's switch gears a little now and look at what else rotary-wing aviation has done to my life. As I said earlier, I own my home. It's a small three bedroom house on several acres, and I have a car and a pick-up truck. All paid for. I have a couple of dogs and an old cat cruisin' around for company. Yeah, I'm single, again, although NOT from "AIDS" (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome, for all of those new to aviation who may be looking in). I have some money (a little) invested in two personal retirement accounts, and with my company's retirement I'll be in good shape. Even with my paltry salary, at the end of the month I have money left over that I don't have to spend. All of this has been financed SOLELY by my thirty year helicopter career. I'm happy to say that I want for nothing (well, yeah, sometimes it'd be nice to have a gal to sit with in the movie theater, but what the hell) and if the sawbones were to tell me that next week was to be my last, I'd spend it no differently - I'd still go to work and enjoy myself and I'd still come home and enjoy myself.

I'm not sorry that I'm happy with my life and I don't need a fancy salary and a cush schedule to offset my miserable existance. I'm not sorry that I've had a wonderful thirty years flying helicopters. I'm not sorry that I'd do it all over again.

Robpowell69, you didn't start anything with your question. This crap has been going on since forever. I'm just here to tell you that helicopters have been good to me and they can be just as good to you. There's no magic involved, a little self discipline, maybe, depending on what you want in return. And, you can have the time of your life along the way.

Whirly, you keep plugging away. That Russia deal sounds neat. I'll just have to be content, all by myself, with my trusty ol' two by twelve...;)

Good luck to all!

C Ya

DesertDude
Good On ya. At least this Thread hasnt been a gang war. We may have to get Flare and talk about this over a Beer in some Mesican Taco joint someday. Or at our Annual gathering in the sand on New Years between Maricopa and Gila Bend. Bring yer own Sauce and Airplane.

ADDICTION!!!!:p

I just wish the general pay for helo pilots would rise to a just level sometime.

As long as people feed their addiction with working for nearly free, I do not see a lot of hope though!!


3top:) :) :)

Would I do it again? This is such an interesting question that it actually took me back through my entire career.

I remember working in Memphis flying for $500.00 a month and no benefits. I was actually ashamed to tell my girl friends at the time how much I made as a "Helicopter Pilot". They all thought I made plenty, but then I am sure they wondered why I drove a run down second hand Volkwagon that had to be pushed off half the time because the starter only worked part time.

I remember getting married and my wife having to work so we could afford rent and groceries, but at least everyone "thought" I was a high paid helicopter pilot. Never told anyone what I made, too embarassing. Been married for 29 years now so she must not have minded too much.

I remember learning that the pilots at Ft. Rucker were making three times as much as me and had real benefits. Of course I had been married for five years when I discovered this and had a son to take care of then.

I remember getting my first paycheck at Rucker and thinking I was the richest man in town. I also remember how much those insurance benefits meant to me as a young family man with a wife and son to take care of.

I also remember discovering a few months ago that I am now making less spending money today than I was back then. I knew for some reason that even though I was getting raises on a regular basis, my money just wasn't going as far today as it did back then. Consequently I did a little research and found that even with the raises I had received, my actual spending power was being reduced by the cost of living rising faster than my wages. I figured I actually have $3,000.00 plus dollars less to spend today than I had in 1986. So basically I have been losing money in this profession for the last fourteen years.

Do I love the job? Of course I do. Would I do it again? Maybe with hindsight, if I thought I could effect changes sooner than what we have experienced so far in the profession.

Butch

Hey Bert,

Sounds interesting. Haven't been up that way in a while - used to have some friends living in Rainbow Valley. That's a long time ago, now.

C Ya

Tomorrow morning i will get up,give my son his breakfast and kiss my wife on the way out the door.I will get in my little car and drive to the airport.I will then make my way to the hangar in about 38*c + find out if it is my turn to fly (2 crew operation) and if so i will check the weather,notams,read and initial files,etc before i make my way to the line office where i will check which aircraft i am due to fly,go outside,preflight,sign the techlog and then grab a coffee and wait for the call to say that the pax are ready.

I have been doing this or similar in crew rooms from the Irish Sea,to the west atlantic,to the north sea,to St.Georges channel,to the USA,to the middle east for 20 years.I have been lucky enough to have flown both fixed wing and rotary both as a crewman and as a pilot.

I have been soaked,frozen and baked over that period of time on innumerable occasions and have cursed and ranted on about why the hell i ever got into this business :confused:

Money has never been a factor except now with the responsibility of a family to consider, i have to be conscious about what i earn.

So why am i sitting up in the middle of the night writing this ?

Because one day i looked up into the sky and saw a silver bird go over my head and i knew(if a 5 year old can know) that somehow i had to get my feet of the ground and into that sky.Years of building model aircraft,days sitting at the fence below the threshhold during school holidays,scrounging pocket money to buy Flight and poring over those old photographs of past airshows,classic aeroplanes and classic pilots.

And here i am,flying for 20 years and still looking up for the silverbird or any flying machine that happens to drone by.

Helicopters,i love them.I made a conscious choice to go the rotary route and have never regretted it.They are the nearest thing to levitiation that we can find.Fixed wing,i love them,nothing like diping a wingtip into a fluffy cu on a summers evening and seeing a students face light up.This is the kind of flying i like to do and i don't feel like i have missed out on anything.

Flying,what is there to say except that apart from my wife and son nothing has given me as much pleasure and frustration,boredom and excitement,fun and challange in my life.

So for thoses of you who are fed up with your lives as helicopter pilots or as fixed wing pilots perhaps you need to be looking elsewhere or perhaps you need to look back and try to find what you have lost.I do not regard myself as an underachiever or an overachiever,i have a job that is also my hobby,so i am lucky.

Would i start all over again ? absolutely. Would i favour rotary over fixed wing ? Yes if i want to remain having fun in what i do.Thats whats good for me,it doesn't necessarily mean that it is good for someone else.There have been many post from people who have done it the military way,the self improver way,those who like it,those who don't.Each to there own so long as they get something out of it and don't snipe at those who are not in their camp.

Je ne regrete rien !

helicopter.com training page
 

I recall reading at helicopter.com that as your experience goes up and you get into better aircraft of greater value that often the number of flight hours per week goes down. So its just the initial thousand hours or more of effort thats the hurdle.. I'm thinking specifically of a job flying people from new york city to the hamptons out on long island, as you aren't offshore somewhere at an oil rig or yanking logs out of the ground all week long but just acting as a courier for rich business men going out to their vacation homes on the weekend, looking to beat the road traffic that always builds up for hours on end down below. Does anyone know how much this particular job pays, and the hours, or one like it? With the cost of aircraft so high and regular maintenance for certification to go with it, its a shame pilots are somehow kept out of the money loop.

B Sousa and Flare.

Why didn't you haul your a** into another profession?

I admit that I didn't read the whole thread but most of it, seems that I missed something important out?

I really have to agree with the so many helicopter drivers here who actually like their jobs. It is an affection or maybe I should say its becomes an addiction.

My job is very interesting "me thinks" tomorrow can never be expected to be like today was. F.ex. it consist of flight training, aerial photography and filming, sightseeing, geological survey, laning on top of glaciers and I can go on forever. I get a decent paycheck for what I do and that is the bottom line.

One can always question what others have contributed to society. One day I was fortunate enought to be able to show a very old woman a glacier for the very first and maybe the very last time in her life. I find that very fulfilling and like the feeling when I come home at night.

After all helicopter flying is "just" a job and of course we should get well paid. It will always be the fuel for flaming discussions about pilots wages. My theory is: if you don't like it, try something else. You can always try to figure it out why people decide to become heli pilots and stay in that job for the rest of their lives. Some people want to do it and some don't.

I believe that everyone can change carrers if they don't like their current one.

Helicopter flying is not for everyone I think and beeing a lawyer isn't either. I don't think that it is fair to call helicopter pilots "under achievers" just because they want to work in this business.

I know that many of us could have gotten a into something else but as some have said that they made the decision on becoming heli pilots and stand by their decisions. I am very happy to be a helicopter pilot, I could have done everything else but I decided not to.

Best wishes,

Heli-Ice

Ps. Bert, I don't post only to have my name in here, I just found the need to defend myself. ;)

I once had enough of flying helicopters and all that it entailed....invested some money into a hard wood sawmill business in Washington State.

At the time, I deemed it right to get a commerical drivers license to complement all the flying licenses I had. Heavens, I even drove truck for a period of time until one day the cellphone rang and one of the reasons I had left helicoptering offered me a flying job.....and I accepted.

The whole time I drove the truck, people asked me if I were crazy for not being in flying......really didn't have a good reply for that except it was easier to tell my dear Mum that I was a trucker than have to lie to her and tell her I played piano in a brothel (knowing her son was a chopper pilot would have broken the old dear's heart!). So here I am again, flying helicopters, lying to Mum, and now I am asking myself if I am crazy for not being a truck driver!

The main differences I can see between the two jobs, is the air horn.....and management at trucking companies know good drivers are not a dime a dozen.

Ever wonder why we get the managers we do? How dedicated they seem to be at furthering the welfare of the boys and girls that fly and maintain the aircraft! (Not!) It is said at a "Bitter Helicopter Company" in the Gulf Coast.....that pilots feel like they are at war with the management......wonder what a warm feeling the managers must have to know the staff made public those sentiments to the CEO during a company wide visit.

At least in the big truck....when I tooted my train horns....I could get people's attention! What does it take in the helicopter industry to get people's attention?

The union movement in the Gulf Coast has made a significant change in pilot pay and in time will also work to improve the work environment as well if the pilots work together towards that goal. Hopefully, at least one group of pilots can get the attention they deserve from management. The rest of the story is the union could have been avoided by good management alone. :rolleyes:

Heli-Ice
You obviously have not read the entire thread and must be posting to see your name in Print.
Helicopter Flying is great, its fun, its personally rewarding, BUT it needs some improvement in the items mentioned on page one (1)<<<<thats the first page...

So far I've only made it to the second page of this thread and I'm sure I'll have more to say but I must reply to Flare Dammit.

You tell this kid to "go for the airlines" like it is the ultimate and INEVITABLE end goal of a fixed-wing career. What a load of bull****. Compare the number of airplane licences in any country to airline jobs and you'll discover a lot of these people are not in the big iron. The bottom end of airplane flying has INVARIABLY, in my experience, been far worse than anything I've seen in rotary aviation.

Low-time instructors who should be out learning how to fly are working for minimum wage, passing their inexperience on to the next crop of dreamers. The next few steps up are just as low-paid all because the CHOSEN FEW make some ungodly sum of money in their golden airliners. And all along the way the employers and outsiders encourage this idea that all the crap is justified because of this mythical golden ring.

You said that there are perhaps 100 such DREAM JOBS as DesertDude had in the industry. Pardon me? I work for a company with stock purchase plans, good wages by the standard of the society I live in, pension plan, medical, equal time schedule, and on and on. And there are 120 pilots IN THIS COMPANY ALONE. I've had VFR jobs that had even better benefits. One of the best VFR companies I worked for had 90 pilots employed.

If your inner child needs to make a quarter million dollars a year in order to feel adequate then good for you, but that has NOTHING to do with the industries we are talking about.

If this kid decides that he wants to try to accomplish something with his life and decides that a 747 captaincy is his end goal, I'll applaud his ambition and do my best to give good advice. But I would also council him on how UNLIKELY his goal is of being realized. Just like I would say the same to a prospective helicopter pilot who decides he wants to be a west-coast helilogger making the big coin in the front of a chinook.

If we have gone through years of pain and suffering in our various jobs then WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT. On the other hand I have voted with my feet or in less severe cases just called someone's bluff when he said fly or get fired.

Compare apples with apples or stay away from the next generation of pilots.

Given the choice of 747 Captain or Puma Offshore IFR Captain, my choice was and IS easy.

What do you think it is??

HeloTeacher wrote:

"Given the choice of 747 Captain or Puma Offshore IFR Captain, my choice was and IS easy.

What do you think it is??"

Well, judging by what a nitwit you are, I'd say helicopter pilot.

It's amazing how helicopter pilots get their panties all in a wad when someone says that we have a sucky career.

To tell an aspiring pilot that making it to the airlines is an impossible dream, or even a ridiculously impractical dream is just nonsense. Just look at how many pilots are employed by the domestic U.S. airlines alone, then look at the number of commercial helicopter jobs in the U.S. Now tell me that the odds of acheiving "success" in both are the same. Get real.

To prejudge that someone will have the abject and irrational love of helicopters that "success" in our industry requires, and he/she will therefore have a "better life" or "enjoy flying more" or any of that other crap I've heard spewed on this forum is just crazy. The original poster of this interminable thread is simply a guy at the beginning of his career who wanted to compare the jobs with an eye toward pursuing one or the other. Then all these helicopter pilots started waxing poetic about their loser, low-paying jobs and how great they are, and what fun old Rob Powell will have if he'll just "go helicopters" and how helicopters compare favorably to flying with the airlines.

Yeah, well...maybe. Then again, maybe not. YMMV, as they say.

I wonder why it's so impossible for helicopter pilots to think that someone would find any other line of work enjoyable? I wonder why helicopter pilots feel so adamantly that they themselves would never find happiness in any other job? (What kind of a ridiculous, self-imposed limitation is that??) ...And why some of them continue in the field for THIRTY YEARS at a pay level that most non-aviators would find laughably pathetic? Helicopter pilots frequently refer to their avocations as "addictions," then get all uppity and defensive when told that most addictions (drugs, internet porn, masturbation) are psychotic or at very least neurotic. But one needn't be Siggy Freud to know that.

As for myself, although some have presumed arbitrary figures for what I would consider a "decent, honorable, and dignified" salary for what we do, I have never mentioned a specific number. I just think that, in general, helicopter pilots are not paid nearly enough considering the qualifications we have to have to even do our jobs and the risk we take every time we pull up on the collective. It does not equate, and those of you who think it does are simply delusional.

But what I find perpetually and infinitely puzzling is the fact that so many helicopter pilots have this self-defeating attitude that we'll *never* make any more than we make right now. They seem to be indicating that "big bucks" (whatever they are) are elusive and we don't deserve them anyway so why try? I don't know how many helicopter pilots over the years have told me in an exaggerated huff, "Oh, we'll NEVER be able to make good money in this business!" Right! With an attitude like that, we never will!

I am 46. I've been a helicopter pilot for twenty years. I have my fixed-wing ratings. Today, if I started with a commuter airline (never mind shooting for the majors), I could finish out my career making $100,000/year or maybe more. (Who knows where the pay is going to go in the fourteen years I have left?) That's not bad. But more than that, it wouldn't take very long at all until I was at a salary/benefits level that FAR surpassed what I was making during my last year as a helicopter pilot. And yes, salary and benefits are important to me. Hate to burst the bubbles of you guys who think we should do this job for free or at a mere subsistence level.

For a young pilot who is just coming into this industry, the goal of a seat in the pointy-end of an airliner is a worthwhile and attainable one. Yes, you'd have to prostitute yourself for awhile to get into the "good stuff." But unlike helicopters, you wouldn't have to prostitute yourself for your ENTIRE CAREER. And, concomitantly, you wouldn't have to justify prostituting yourself for such a long time that you start believing your own crap.

True, it's not all about money. But it's *SOME* about money, because we all have to eat and adequately take care of our families. And frankly, I'm not all that "addicted" to helicopters. It was great fun and I had a good time. But in the end I saw how selfish I was being. So it's over for me. I wish I had quit a good ten years sooner. Good ten years.

Would I do it again? Sure! But only for a little while. Heh- I may be dumb, and I may love helicopters, but I ain't sick. I'd ultimately go airlines. And you know what? I'd love it just as much as I love helicopters. I'm funny that way; I just love to fly.

Flare: You're at that age where you're questioning everything, especially where you are now and where you should have been by now. You've obviously reached a conclusion and it doesn't rest easy with you. So to help alleviate the dissappointment, you're offloading amongst others around you whom you believe feel the same as you (or should do).
It'll pass, you'll mellow, time will numb the conflict and you'll either knuckle down and get on with it or retire.
Wisdom comes later with some individuals don't be alarmed. Join those of us who are comfortable with our lot, it's painless sunshine... :)

Very well spoken, T. coupling!

Flare, if you're so unhappy and miserable, why are you still hanging around?

Oh, gotta go now, my favorite Pink Floyd song is comin' up: "Brain Damage".:p

C Ya

Thomas Coupling,

Good stuff old boy! I hope your couch is free when I'm having my mid-life crisis! ;)

You guys make me laugh. Life is all so black and white for you all, eh? So full of definite and clear extremes and easy decisions. Desert Dude asks, "If you're so unhappy and miserable, why are you hanging around?" Others have voiced alternatives of the same question.

The problem is, it assumes that I am a) unhappy and b) miserable (depressed?). It assumes that I am filled with self-loathing and constantly whip myself over a lifetime of poor career choices. It assumes that I find flying helicopters unbearably unpleasant. The truth, for all you amateur armchair psychologists out there (T. Coupling), is quite different.

As I've said, I love flying, and love flying helicopters. It gives me great joy to know how to do it. The twenty years I've spent doing it (although the last two have only been part-time) have been a gas...fun and thrilling and challenging and all the good that we know it can be. However (now try to follow this), IN RETROSPECT, I see that to do it as long as I did simply was a mistake...a waste of time and that I should have done things differently.

When I came to that conclusion, I changed things - I quit. I never did fly around, angrily thinking, "Gee, I hate my life, hate this job," and I don't now. In fact, now that I fly on my own terms (how much I want to or don't want to), things are a LOT better. My life is now in balance. I will never have another full-time flying job, fixed-wing or rotary.

I'm amused that it actually pisses people off that someone might not be as irrationally addicted to helicopters anymore as they are still. If you don't love it, GET THE HELL OUT! It sounds so resentful and immature.

So kill the messenger if you want to. Some of you need to grow up.

Very good, Flare. NOW I get it.

Don't know about anyone else, I was simply curious. (After all, I'm the underachieving delusional who's going to get the pro-bono shrinks to work on the wiring harness - you know, things come a little slower to dudes like me).

And, you're right, I was making the assumptions you spoke of, because you sure sounded unhappy. Anyway, the ship sank, let's move on.

Glad to hear you enjoy it again - on your own terms.

Whatever your chosen field, I hope that you get the same satisfaction and personal rewards that I've taken from this one. It's been a good run so far.

(Hey, the same goes for all the rest out there as well)

C Ya

Ever since I was a wee boy, I knew I wanted to fly, so at the age of 17, I had the chance to start flying. Fixed wing of course.
For some reason I always looked up to those men in the nice suits flying the big jets. I couldn't think of a better job.
100 something hours later in a c150, I was already bored out of my mind.
Although I still enjoyed being up in the air, I knew that a carreer sitting in an expensive office at 30 something thousand feet, realy wasn't for me.
But I wanted to fly, so the switch to helicopters was made.
Best choice of my life, after that first flight I was hooked, I don't know if most of you guys remember that magical moment of your first helicopter flight, but I will never forget. (we landed in a field! in a field..., no plane could do that!)
The flying was tons of fun, although also very expensive, but hey I was going to make that back within the first year of my first job, right?
Not really, first job took 3 years to come along and just about payed the bills, but who cared, I was flying a helicopter for a living now and enjoying it.
But then I learned more about the industry, I noticed that a lot of the fling wing drivers were complaining about their wages, either just by talking to them or now by reading forums such as this one, and you know what, a lot of the negative atmosphere rubbed of. I still enjoy flying more than anything, but it's the people in the industry bitch'n about how underpaid they are, that are taking the fun out of it. Yes, with my current pay it will still take me 50 years to pay of my tuition, but who cares, I'M HAVING FUN, but just for listening to al the complaining I think I need a pay-increase.
These forums get are a great source of information, and a lot of kids that one day want to be a helicopter pilot, might consider not getting their licence because of the negativity surrounding the job, so we might be losing some really good future pilots.
Maybe a seperate forum to discuss pay would be good, so we keep al the B.S. away from this forum and just keep it about flying...
Just my 2 cents (actualy 1, rest goes to the bank).
Fire away...

"Yes, with my current pay it will still take me 50 years to pay of my tuition, but who cares, I'M HAVING FUN, but just for listening to al the complaining I think I need a pay-increase."


Almost Canadain,
Check back its not ALL about Low Pay. Im also glad to hear your having so much fun. The statement above is for fun lovers and not those who are concerned about being independant or responsible. Sort of like not reporting an overtorque, because it was only there for a short time.
At Least in Canada you can always fall back on the Government for a stipend/medical in your later years. It seems to be the general feeling amongst a lot of Professions, both in Canada and for certain in the U.S. Those who try to be responsible and plan down the road subsidize the fun lovers in our taxes...

Bert, does having fun really equal being irresponsible?
Sad, very sad.
You don't know me the slightest bit, yet because I still find some pleasure in the job I must be some wacked cowboy pilot who doesn't care about anything.
I can tell you that safety for me is the most important thing on the job, it makes it possible to have fun (without being scared something might happen) and makes me able to come home to wife and 2 kids.
Must be a lot of irresponsible pilots out there, having fun and all that...

Dont put the monkey on my back. you stated it would take you the next 50 years to pay things off. Indicates heavily in financial debt. Must have been an exageration. Purpose is to provide for the family then have fun....for me anyway, you have your own choice.
If you put things on these posts lightly you get slammed, ask me Im always getting slammed......