Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?
 

Ladies/Gents. I have a question regarding the future MCA SAR contract.
It appears to me that there is going to be a shortage of rear crew available to CHC once they take-over (if the rumours about Bristows cross-overs, etc are true). Therefore, where are CHC going to recruit all their new guys from and who is going to do the basic intro to SAR training? I'm guessing that CHC aren't going to use expensive AW139 and S92 hours for this.
My guess is that there is going to be some work for SARTU.
Also, there a number of potential SAR crewmen out there in the wilderness who want to know how to pre-qualify themselves for future SAR jobs with CHC (or anyone else who might win the UK SAR(H) contract). Does anyone have any info on this?

AT

Who's going to do basic SAR rear crew trg?
 

Arctic Tern

The problem that CHC have inherited from Bristow’s, is that most of the Bristow rearcrew are in the twilight of their flying careers. So where do you get the extra rearcrew/winchops/winchmen from??

Option 1 . Train new guys, expensive and risky

Option 2 . Recruit from the RAF or RN. Most of the guys have taken the extra money and are tied for the the next 5 years and are waiting for their pensions.

Option 3 . Poach from another company. What a good idea. The only other company is Bond and the guys on the Jigsaw contract; they are young, flying current SAR duties and are medically trained to the same standard as the Forces. They’re also trained on a modern aircraft.
Perhaps this is why 5 of them are going for an interview with CHC , I’m sure the CHC cheque book clout will lure them away as well as allowing CHC to put one over their up and coming rivals. ;)

Suitable Operators..............
 

How about,


Police trained observers, not winch trained I know but well versed in flir/nvg etc. Flying in crap weather.

Give them an Atlas Reed/CHC winching course..............

Whats the verdict You decide ?

I think you will find that the Jigsaw rearcrew are on extremely good salaries not that anyone will be likely to divulge exact figures on here. What could lure them is the opportunity to do some "real" SAR but the CG contracts are pretty quiet these days.

In terms of training, winchmen can be trained from any walk of life provided they have the right aptitude and attitude - the military guys don't arrive at the Squadron already trained. For winch ops it is more difficult as more experience is required and that can only be found by either very long training courses (uneconomical) or on the job training. Training experienced winchmen is definately the way forward but it is definately "chicken and egg".

C'mon Arctic, we all know who you are, just ring CHC and offer to do the training for them! Nothing Ventured........

Great Idea Doorstopper. Can't believe I didn't think of that. Its just come to me.... a quick HHO Basic Course to establish whether the potential employees have the aptitude for the job, some focussed screening of candidates and a recommendation for suitable role (ie Winchman or Hoist Op). All flying done on a cheap twin or even a reliable single. All sounds very sensible. It'll never catch on. Of course you may be incorrectly assuming I know what I'm talking about. :}

CHC vs Bond
 

Cyclic

I agree the Bond/Jigsaw boys are probably on good money, but i'm sure CHC have more than enough dosh in the bank to match their pay or even better it, also as you say the lure of more SAR jobs might tip the balance.
2 weeks on an oil rig vs a proper SAR job... erm let me think!!!!;)

Are you suggesting that Jigsaw winchmen are Paramedic registered.

Whilst indeed true, Mil winchman training is also long and intensive. To fully train a RAF winchman takes over 2 1/2 years (not including basic training).

Chalk and cheese.

What do you class as crap weather? When was the last time you saw a police helicopter (not that you would be able to see it) grovelling through the mountains at night on NVG with 200m viz and 100 ft cloudbase. Also you would have to be trained to use radar and operate a winch. The latter is not a quick look at winch in or winch but takes a long time to learn (minimum of a year for Mil winch ops).

What I am trying to say is that you cannot pick up Joe Bloggs from the street and train them in a couple of months no matter what their background. I hope they have taken into account the cost of very long training course for each of their untrained rearcrew!! (or they are happy to accept a low standard).

Whopper

As you may or may not know, it isn't always the rig, in fact they can see a "real" SAR unit from the hangar! Anyway, two weeks at home is better than being full time in Shetland or Stornabag. I know for a fact that CHC cannot match what they are being paid at the moment - this will be part of CHC's problem.

Please also bear in mind that the Jigsaw crews have already carried out CG tasking including winching from fishing vessels at night. They did this and other tasking with winchmen trained in house.

CHC vs Bond
 

Cyclic

I totally agree with you that CHC have the problem to solve, i just feel the easiest way forward for them with an already tight contract start date is to recruit known and proven crewmen/rearcrew and if they up the money to get the guys from Bond surely that will benefit us all in the long run??

SAR Bloke

As for am i saying the Bond crewmen are all Paramedics. No, but they do the same course as the forces do prior to the forces crewmen becoming paramedics, and not all forces rearcrew have made it to that stage yet.

Sorry just been told that some of the Bond crewmen are in fact Paramedics... sorry guys.:ok:

Hand on heart time all you Bond Guys:)

How many Ops Jobs have you done this year?

I have been told by one of your pilot friends of mine that for Miller and Sumburgh it's less than ten for BOTH bases and if you said you used the winch on more than one of them you would be telling porkies.

Now you might be paid a fortune but you must be feeling like all those players that sit on the bench week in week out for Chelsea when they realise there's must be more to life than money and they want to OUT.

I wasn't going to get drawn in on this one but what the hell! All of the Bond crews are volunteers and they knew that they would be working on a BP contract that wouldn't provide job after SAR job. The proof will be in the eating as to how many move to CHC or elsewhere and this will give a true reflection as to the power of the green.

Your pilot friend may well be correct as to his tally but I didn't think that there was a scoreboard; if there was, and you take into account that there is no overland tasking required of the contract, the "score" at the end of the year may well be quite respectable - but anyway who cares:D

I know very little about the pay and conditions on the various civvy SAR contracts, but what I do know is that most SAR crewmen are not doing the job for money. That said, it is increasingly important that you pay people what they are worth - and in my humble opinion there are few people who have the responsibility and face the dangers that SAR crews do. Therefore, CHC 'et al' are going to have to put their hands in their pockets to attract the right people. Similarly, CHC and whoever gets the SAR(H) contract are going to have to invest flying hours in training their new people. That means writing proper monthly training requirements that give pilots and rear crew sufficient time to maintain proficiency. Let's stop this ridiculous practice of justifying rear crew trg on the back of pilot trg hours.
Furthermore, SAR operators must invest in top quality role equipment and flying clothing. This also has a big impact on the morale of crews; particularly Winchmen.
As ever, job satisfaction is more than just what goes in the pay packet. But when you pay peanuts you get monkeys!
End of Broadcast.
AT

AT

The "civvy" companies will pay what they think they can get away with. If competition is fierce they will pay more, however, it is a business and the idea is to make profit. If the job is getting done to the satisfaction of the customer that is what matters.

Not all outfits train on the back of pilots' hours but the quantity of hours will never match the military and nor should they.

CHC vs Bond
 

Justintime80

I think you have got it right CHC can offer the proper SAR jobs at a rate that the Bond/Jigsaw guys will have dreamed of, the only sticking point is the money. Job satisfaction comes into play here but there is no way wifey at home will like the thought of less money coming in each month.

Talked to a contact in Bond and it seems their chief crewman is jumping ship and his number 2 doesn't want to takeover the job, whats that saying about smoke and fires...:O

More info
 

whopperchopper

You seem to have a rich vein of information, anymore gossip to tell us??;)

SG

As in most things that come out of the likes of a WC, it is all a load of c##p! :=

Mil SaR v Civvy SaR
 

Well,

As a regular viewer of Pprune forums, I recall quite recently a thread about Police observer roles being civilianised. And I recall some commentary by folk I assume where involved in SAR jobs , that "civvies" could be trained to fly as Police observers. Now while Im sure this could happen, and given the quality of recruit then with decent training anything can be acheived. Police officer observers watch your backs !

However now this thread has an angle on the thread I have previously mentioned, In fact it is similar. I recall text from that thread clearly from cops promoting the idea that cops in the air are still cops, ie they think like a cop. Not a civvy trained observer (no matter how qualified). And that to have cops in the air was of big benefits to those cops on the ground dealing...............

Now this thread is suggesting that to pay buttons attracts monkeys ?
Never a more true statement, Now that argument on the Police thread was shot down in flames, well folks the point of my post is to do the same on this thread.

There is little doubt that MIL/SAR training within the HM Forces is probably the best in the world...............BUT

You do not have the market on it anymore and rightly or wrongly your grip on it is weakening. BUT when you lock horns with those outside your industry on these forums and come out with comments like.......

"When was the last time you saw a Police helicopter flying in 200m viz and a 100ft cloudbase "

Please dont expect anything other than folk outside your industry having a go at you.

Anyway rant over thank you....................

Civilians as Police observers, most definately as its easy!

Civilians as SAR/Winch Ops not really, too specialised !

tetchy
 

what the **?@!!! was all that about this thread is about SAR not police camera operators

SAR Rear Crew training??
 

SAR is not a matter of JAR-OPS3, so far I know. But there are operators performing Hoist operations in bad weather; especially those operators involved in the Sea-Pilot services in the North-Sea. All of them do have a JAR-OPS3 conform training program.
One of those Companies is NHV in Belgium, performing Hoist operations in weather conditions up to 60 kts. All of this crew has been recruted from the 40st SAR SQ and have allready trained several Rear crew members untill now.
In first instance the Rear crew is formed as a safety winchmen, thereafter as hoist operator Good weather Day & Night, then as Hoist operator all weather. Te instructors have performed between 15000 & 20000 hoistings on all type of boats/sailship.
Jus to tell that there is in fact an existing training system.

Chaps, I think we might have a small amount of confusion creeping in. No one, that I can see, on this thread has really attacked the Police units. They do a different job to the one this thread relates to.

Secondly, the military training is good and has matured through hard learned lessons from all over the world - remember its better to learn from someone else's experience than your own! However, now it is as cost effective as possible but still delivering the required standard as dictated by the military end user - and before someone attacks that statement I mean we pay as low a rate as possible for the training we demand is provided not, we could do it completely differently and cheaper see next paragraph!

The future, well, we could change the way we do business. You could stream line the training by serving as a winchmen for the first 3-years then moving on to become a winch operator. This will allow a huge amount of on the job training. Remember, we pile a load of training into the winch operator at the moment because he has to be able to do the job on his very first shift - as do the rest of the crew - but, he is the pivotal lynchpin to a crew working well or just adequately - no I am not a winch op I am a pilot!

Do we over train? Possibly, but you have to look at the raw material we start with. You can't write an essay if you don't know the alphabet! Please, do not red pen this post like others on the military forum!!!! So, we start with the very basics and work up to how to safely cut corners. If you go straight to the operational stuff you DO miss why your doing something and it could come back to bite! Or not? And there is the question? Overtrain and cover all bases, or take a risk and only train for some?

Now, who can do the training in the future?

Well, there are other places to train, there are places here too. But with SAR-H we will inevitably have a joint civil and miltary school - yes, there will be military personnel in future SAR.

Lets try constructive comments rather than we are better than you or vice versa - we are all the same we just do it differently [well a bit differently].

The suggestion that CHC or indeed any other company will not be able to find adequately trained rearcrew to support SAR in the UK is hard to believe. CHC who have the task now to support the newly won CG interim contract have provided SAR in Ireland for some years now without any bother and additionally is a worldwide helicopter organisation with other SAR untis abroad. So why should UK companies have problems with SAR reacrew recruitment and training in the UK, when SAR is done happily by civvies in 90% of the rest of the world?

whopperchopper
 

After you dropped in a couple of rumours thought i would do some checking of my own. From a mil SAR man who knows the Jigsaw setup (hello Matron!) yes there are changes in progress! Not quite what you thought though......interestingly their rearcrew leader has been promoted and moving to the Bond HQ (show me that happening at Bristow/CHC!) and interviews have already started for his successor with three names that i have already heard of so it must be a good position!!
If you look back at the old Jigsaw thread that was full of 'who is going to do the rearcrew training' question, well it happened without the need of us 'experts' and yet here we are again talking about CHC and their problem?
Get over it guys, CHC, Bond and Bristows are full of ex mil sar so whats the beef??
I for one am not afraid of 2012.

DS

Doorstopper
 

Another who makes like he is in the know, if it is such a good position as chief crewman of Bond then why didn't his No2 take the job ,instead they have to interview others to fill a void.

As for ex mil doing SAR i agree , but my point is there is a shortage of qualified SAR rearcrew and this will lead to poaching between the 2 main players left in the UK SAR market.

If you were in a position to appoint a crewman would you settle for second best or would you take the cream from another company???:ugh:

Whopper
Me thinks your info is flawed, am told the guy doesnt have a number two and civvy companies always advertise and then interview!:oh:

Who's doing basic sar rearcrew trg
 

So were was the advert for the Bond chief crewmans position or was it like the initial Bond recruiting? Namely if you were under a certain age and a friend of the chief crewman you were in. Of course being ex Navy helped as well!

Forward 40 Winching out, Steady.

First the Senior pilot moves on and now the Cheif Crewmen............

All's well on Jigsaw at Bond?

Maybe he is a good no. 2 but management don't think he could cut the mustard

Can someone explain to me the requirement for years of training for rear crew...

What exactly is involved?

I fly on a SAR program myself (PIC) with a winch op and 2 winchmen (PJ’s)

It’s my 3rd time as PIC on Maritime and Mountain SAR over the years, with 3 different companies. I’m confused about what kind of training your guys are getting in the UK.

We have regular crew training sessions with no real time limit imposed, more or less train to proficiency ....

I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s role...We have a crew concept, and obviously have more and less experienced guys in different roles as winch-op, winchguy1, winchguy2 etc...

But I can’t understand the years of training involved...? Someone mentioned 2.5 years

Yes...bad wx and blowing hard!... it’s nice to have a smooth and panickproof crew out back, but these are basic character traits, reinforced with good training and some experience.

But I guess I think of rearcrew training to be something in the order of weeks of training, depending on tasking.......followed by extensive OTJ training in a junior position.

I have a junior guy in one of our rearcrews (Don’t know exactly how much experience he has, except he’s junior to the others..I know the winch-op has seven years as a winch-op though)

But given my druthers... on a difficult job..It'd be my choice to have him (Junior) do everything if I could...Not that the others are lacking in any way...just that he’s an outstanding character, and somehow, when he’s playing winch-op on a training run. Everything goes like clockwork. I can't explain why, or quantify/clarify his abilities

Again, I’m not trying to minimize anyone’s input or skills. Just looking I suppose, for idea’s to lift our own game, if in fact anything’s missing?

Thanks for any constructive input! Maybe someone could summarize what's involved in UK training. How the training time is utilized?

Thanks....

Doorstopper
 

As to flawed information, i think you had better check yours out, rumour has it the chief crewman at Bond does have a number 2 and he didn't want the top job as he is looking elsewhere...erm where could that be .... CHC perhaps.

Wiretensioner

That talk is to political as if that would happen!!! he he he

If that is the case then all the RAF lads can work for CHC.;)

So, which ones are the constructive comments then?

Lets face it, if the need becomes desperate someone will train people to do the job either here or overseas - be that CHC, Bond or Bristows. Ok, you might not get experienced people but hey, every body starts somewhere! Then problem goes away. [Perhaps] Steps back ........

SARREMF
Of course there will always be a solution. The usual suspects in the UK SAR game will find a way of putting bums on seats in the back of the helicopters. And I will be the first to agree that the old fashioned training and selection regimes are in need of change - there is now neither the money or the hours to give guys 5/6 month conversion courses, etc. That said, if you are going to cut corners it is even more important that the right people are selected in the first place.
Sadly, it is often the truth that weaknesses in someone's ability rarely show-up until the pressure is on. Therefore, it is vital that you seek quality training opportunities that allow crews to face realistic situations. This is the balance that Chief Pilots and Crewmen Ldrs have to meet - low risk, challenging training events that benefit the whole crew.
I am a big fan of the Voice Marshalling VR Trainer and have seen it in use at both SARTU and Shawbury. It is an ideal tool to introduce and practice VM for Winch Ops and the latest software upgrade has introduced a pretty good sea model that includes some tricky decks. The use of this kit in harness with a focussed flying training programme will produce good basic Winch Ops. I should add that I don't have shares with VP Defence and have nothing to gain by promoting their kit ;)

In short......someone will! :ok:

It's a question that keeps being asked! & one day someone will have to take the plunge & start ab-nitio winch crew training! That's kind of inevitable! So...what will they look for in likely candidates!??

Winching experience, medical ability & qualifications, navigation, airmanship....to name but a few! Well....this is going to be ab-nitio training....so we're unlikely to find many applicants with winching experience! But....we may find the medical skills we're looking for! Paramedics, Mountain Rescue Team Personnel & other emrgency services personnel!
These people will have worked in high stress enviroments before & therefore have a good chance of having the right characteristics to work well in the air!

The course will have to be a balance of necessary training vs costs! That's a fact everyone has to face! There are enough experienced people to come to those decisions as & when!

One thing that will have to be taken into account is the work that these guys will have to do! Never belittle a SARcrewman!! Whoever does decide to undertake the training needs to tread carefully!

As for the ever popular discussion of who's who in SAR.....I'm ex-navy! But in all honesty.....when it comes to SAR give me a crewman from the Irish Aer Corps everytime! But with the wealth of experience from all walks of life civilian SAR has.....I'm confident that the training will be comprehensive & professional! :)

roofus
 

:ok: Well said mate, most sensible post on this thread so far:ok:

SAR rearcrew training
 

Whilst people are obvioulsy worried about the standards in what is a high risk and stress environment, I think there ARE ways of solving the problem. Take the latest example for example, BOND with Jigsaw, they took paramedics and indeed people off the street and trained them to be winchmen. Whats wrong with that? They were given a full course and then time in role. It's the same for the pilots, copilot gains experience in role then later does a year of training in the right hand seat (Bristows).

The best way to learn is from those with experience, and that is done in role day in day out. And whilst we still have ex Mil drivers and W'Ops why not gain as much from their experience as possible, both for the Winchmen and Copilots.

I understand people have reservations about a new way of doing something, but the people actually doing the training have a vested interest in doing it properly. End of the day those trainers and trainees might be out on a dark and dingy night, and will need the full crew working properly. Yes the companies (Except Bond maybe with the BP budget to support) will want to do it as cheaply as is feasable, otherwise they would loose money.

My last thought is whilst we may not have a perfect solution, I think all three (Bond, CHC, Bristow) are working out the kinks to improve what they have. Should they not be given a chance to sort it?

And it came to pass that constructive comments were made.

At last chaps, we have some real opinions with value! Not the expected "we have done it that way since 1952 so its right".

SARBALLAST, I wish I had said that! Couldn't agree more!

Training SAR Crews
 

Its good to see that this thread has stopped being a s**t throwing competition between ex RAF ex RN crews. :mad:

Lads lets face the fact's here the pools of SAR rear crew have rapidly dried up and someone is going to have to bite the bullet and start training crewmen/persons from scratch, given the correct training syllabus.

In every civil SAR organization there is a wealth of experience in both SAR and ab-intio training as soon as the company's involved start smelling the roses on this issue the better, as we will be faced in the not to distant future with a real lack of crews. Not to mention 2012. :ugh:

In July 2007 CHC will find themselves needing at least 10 crewmen to operate the UK CG contract, thats providing that the Bristows lads decide to stay!!! Will they? No one knows except them..

As some people have already said there is allot of people out there who would love to become a Crewman/person, I have often seen posts on PPrune of people asking who would train them up, so no shortage out there. (don't know why they would want to!!)

And other people have said civil SAR cant train them up BLA BLA BLA, and to be quite frank they are the lads who just have to realize that CHANGE is not always a bad thing :ugh:

As for the whole RN RAF argument, Roofus i could not agree with you more cheers man.. :D

So what kind of schedule do most of these SAR guys work? Is it so many weeks on and so many weeks off like some of the offshore types or do they work a normal type work week with a couple days off? Just curious at this point. I may be up for a change and this sounds interesting. I don't have any SAR specific experience but I have done plenty of precision long line work as a signalman both from the ground and from the AC. Not that that qualifies me for anything but it may be worth a shot. You'll never date the prom queen if you don't ask her out!

Max

Max
It all depends on what type of operation your looking at some i.e Jigsaw do one week on a rig, week off then a week on an Island then week off etc. Then the Real SAR lads :ok: do shift work mostly 24 hour shifts with reduced readiness inside the 24 hours, or you could be in a really cool base with loads of jobs packed into a 12 hour shift pattern.
You would have to look around but most of the working times and patterns are fairly good provided that the base establishment is up to scratch if not then your likely to be nailed to the aircraft, and the crewroom turns into your living room!!!! :*

I am not entirely sure what the Jigsaw routine is, but the guys I have spoken to it say its ok aside fromt he offshore stint. The Cabins in Sumburgh are nice and seem comfortable enough, but the Miller is just a platform with its opffshore issues for people.

The CG routine is 24 on 24 off for a varying number of rotations dependant on hours available. 1pm - 9pm (15 mins readyness) at the hanger, 9pm - 7:30am at home (45mins), 7:30am - 1pm back in hanger (15 mins).

The different shchemes work better or worse for different people, some like the CG way, some like the jigsaw. As with anything in life it depends on your own preference.

As has been said before, there WILL be a requirement for rear crew, not only for new/bigger contracts, but as the aging workforce starts retiring. And please dont go on about the Bond aircrew age, we know they are mostly young-middle aged :E.

In short get in touch with the companies, get your CV on file and see what happens, same deal as if you are a pilot.

Good luck