|
NSW EMS (NGO or Private operator)
NSW EMS Helicopter contracts
I hear that the contracts are being announced today, in regards to future providers. Question ? Should NSW follow the Queensland Victorian and South Australian model and have a private government operator or stay with the NGO model? What are the Pro and cons |
Not going to touch this one !!!!!
:\ |
Not quite sure what you mean sea breeze. QLD uses government operated helo's, but the EMS machines in Vic and SA are operated by private companies (CHC and Australian Helicopters respectively). I suppose you could say that VIC Pol is government operated, but even their machines are supplied by a private company (CHC).
I have my own veiws on which model I think is best (influenced by 14 years with CHC) but as the contracts are about to be announced I think this discussion is a bit late. I would say that hell will freeze over before the various EMS operators would go for government operated helo's. |
Some questions to ponder in regards to NGO verses private or total government operated EMS helicopters
NGO’s introduced the concept of Aeromedical transport to the medical fraternity in the 1970’s and in many states still provide this service. The world has changed since the 1970’s, Government departments such as Police and Health depend upon the concept of air transport to undertake their daily business. NGO have become a huge charity vacuum cleaner within many parts of Australia sucking the charity dollar out of local communities. As the demand upon the air transport services increase, so has the appetite for more funds to support such services. I would like to stimulate the debate by asking some basic questions What benefit will a private rotary operator provide to a government operation? What benefit will a totally government owned and operated rotary system have? What is the benefit in staying with the NGO model? Is there a difference in the pilot training or ability? Is there a difference in the crew training or ability? Is there a difference in engineering? What is the cost to government? What is the cost to the local communities? What is the cost to other charities? Or should governments not be involved in the air medical /rescue scene at all and leave it to anyone who can raise the cash to undertake such a role? :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: |
Interesting view Vice, but I think we probably need some input from one of our leading industry stalwarts to better discuss the pro's and con's of NGO versus comercial operator, where is Gymble when you need him?:E
|
Gymble is having some time off while his new medication takes effect. They will not let him have internet access. He needs to stay quite. He is expected to be back to his old self soon.
|
a question, how could the NSW Health system afford to pay (especially now the nsw government is in VERY large deficit) for a operation in total, over the non profit NGO's who rely heavily on the community gererousity. The government supplies only a small percentage of the cost of running a service now.
QLD has it's gov run service but also has 4 non profit community based machines. |
What would a needle dick pilot like you LHS know about Government finance?
Thankyou Vice, you big dicked pilot, I know bugger all of the "bush ranger"state of NSW finances, except what the rest of the punters hearon the 6 o'clock news. However I have worked for both your big multi national companies and for the small NGO community based operations and I know who I would prefer to work for.
SA government saw the light and moved on. We shall see what, if it happens, in September then shall we. **** LHS |
LHS, I too have worked for both Multi National and NGO, and have to say that the Multi looked after me far better than the NGO. I knew my pay would be in the bank on the correct day, and I did not have to fight to get allowances. As much as vicey is stirring the pot, I have to say that I firmly believe that the day of the chook raffle is over, and a commercial operator should step in and continue with the job. The current NGO's do not seem to realise that NSW Health/Ambulance are the CUSTOMER, and should be treated accordingly. The NGO's have for many years told the CUSTOMER that they will do it the way they say, because the CUSTOMER don't know what they are talking about. I would suggest that after many years of crap from the services that work for them the CUSTOMER may just have had a gutful of being treated like fools. At least the commercial operators have an understanding of how to treat the CUSTOMER, and I would not be surprised to see some unhappy campers of the NGO type at the anouncement of the winning tender. I expect that there will be several commercial operators doing some serious number crunching over the next few weeks for a slice of a min 7 year contract.
Fatty |
Fatty
couldn't agree with you more. THe multi was very good to and for me and I have been lucky in the ngo world too. And, yes the community based operators will have to extract the digit and become more customer freindly to survive. Unfortunately there seems to be those in the administrative side of things, both private and ngo, that are in the job for themselves and how good it will look on future cv's. Those at the coal face concerned in safe operations, patient care and customer satisfaction bear the brunt of any changes and decisions from the front office. Luckily, whoever gets any contract to provide EMS/SAR coverage in any state or territory will need crews to operate their machines. :ok: |
Vice
You're an angry man:ooh: What would a needle dick pilot like you LHS know about Government finance? That’s right, you listened to the six o’clock TV news so now you know all about power station sales. Resistance is futile. |
sea breeze, you certainly ask a lot of questions. ????;)
lhs, in fact the queensland gonernment, aka the queensland taxpayer, drops a very large ammount of money in the collectin bin of the private operators. well over 1 million to one alone. vice like, i must love you. sounds like a set up.:= := :D :D |
:= B]vice like, i must love you.
sounds like a set up[/B] Very generous of you Imabell. ViceLike doesn't deserve it though. When he contributes something constructive to any debate on the forum without resorting to obscenities or personal attacks, we will all be better served. Until then, when ViceLike's name came up, my thought was "there goes the neighbourhood". The topic deserves robust discussion. A lot of people's future will be impacted by the outcome. Apart from whether it is a good move or not, it is inevitable. Running professional EMS operations on the chook raffle principle is a constant pressure on standards and crewing that does not belong in a public emergency service where the public has come to expect, even demand levels of service that are very difficult to fund through an NGO. That comment in no way detracts from the passion and drive that many in the pioneering days of EMS operations in Australia have displayed and continue to display. It was the only way it was going to start. Now Governments are recognising that the voter expects the service to be funded by them, and will no longer excuse the struggle to survive that has been the lot of many. That struggle has led to turf wars and squabbles which can no longer be tolerated, from a political perspective if nothing else. There has to be a standardized, quality controlled consistent product. The question is will it happen this time around? The NSW Government will have to find a lot more than seems to be in the budget for the specified service, and will have to be prepared to wait for available aircraft for 1-3 years depending on equipment, if they intend acompliant result. They will have to find the will to ask for the extra funds, and then fend off all the political flak that will come their way during the waiting period from the very sophisticated lobby machines some charities have developed together with their sponsors. The Snowy decision must worry each of the bigger players who are trying to put together costings and submissions in what is a very short tender period. Is all the work and extra hours just going to be a dry run to cost another tilt 3-4 years from now? |
Just another trick, While you have obviously done some work with the details you posted, I feel that you may be clouding the numbers with a little trickery.
CareFlight-- 3 aircraft funded for 2, true, however we must remember that the 3rd was put in for their head injury study, and it was CareFlight pushing this barrow, this is not part of the existing contract, and as such should not be included in the formula you so nicely displayed. Surf-- 2 aircraft funded for 1, this is true, however we must remember that when the contract started the did have a contract for both, have you used this data in your formula??, To be fair this should have been. CHC --1 machine-- I must remind you that it was Health that approached CHC, and CHC as far as I am aware offered several options for a short term non contract. From what I am lead to believe Health are very happy with this service, however I digress, and we will accept your numbers. While we all accept that the current NGO's are doing a good job in the eyes of the public, and their own, I think we need to ask are they doing a good job in the eyes of the customer? Both services have very active PR machines and are very good at having the spotlight shining in their direction at every possible moment, they have to, because if they don't the public would not dip into their pockets to "help". The public are paying not one but twice for these services, once through their taxes, and once from their post tax money. Why should the public have to pay for this service is the question that needs to be answered. This issue will always get passionate arguments from the NGO's (no NGO no job so we can understand), and some commercial operators, and not just the red bird, the Aussie Helicopters, Jayrows, Hevilifts and smaller operators too, they would be mad not to try for a slice of the pie. If a commercial operator gets the gig, they must have done some hard work to keep the cost down and be competitive in the tender proccess. When the contracts are awarded there will be people that feel that they have been hard done by, the commercial operators can continue with what they already have, the NGO's if they miss out will have to shut up shop, and the employees will need to find employment in the commercial world. Many will adapt quickly to life in the real world, and others will flounder. Good luck to all who tender, and when it's over we can all get back to seeing what else to post about!!;) fatty |
Should NSW stay with the NGO model or become government run with a private aircraft contract. Vetskone states this topic deserves Robust Discussion as a lot of peoples future depends upon it. Yes the people of NSW deserve the best EMS service that a government can provide.
EMS in NSW is the largest provider of EMS helicopters in Australia but it relies upon charities to provide its air services and equipment to provide the public with medical / rescue transport. Just another Trick has said Charities are cheap, but we all know that you get what you pay for and if we look further, one begins to ask “ARE THEY CHEAP” or are we being conditioned to think that they are. Imabell you are right QLD Government does inject a lot of money into its government fleet. However how much do you think NSW puts into each NGO? A lot of money MUCH, MUCH more than a million dollars to each operator and there are four NGO operators within NSW, with a lot less service capabilities than other states. Service capability Look at Careflight Sydney over the last four years how many days has their helicopter been unavailable for service? How many days has their service been restricted because of
Careflights Call sign should be OFF LINE 1 Why has no one ever taken Careflight to task over there inability to provide the services that they are paid to provide?. “Politicians, Politicians” “Yes Careflight is untouchable this contract is for show”. How can Careflight not get this EMS contract. They have worked for years to suck up to and manipulate every politician in power to assist them to progress their cause. Political manipulation is an art and the Helicopter NGO’s are masters at it, however Careflight is the master of them all. WHY has there never been an investigation into how Helicopter NGO’s continue to gain government funding without full and open disclusuer. Surf LifeSaving is no stranger to Political Manipulation one can only look at the Carr Factor that has provided 12 million dollars to Lifesaver helicopter service to build a new base on the edge of a sensitive national park. Where was the review of retrieval / rescue services in relation to helicopter asset location. 12 Million dollars would have provided a lot of air time. WHY WAS THIS FUNDING PROVIDED with no thought to future service delivery or needs. Political Manipulation has for years been the thorn in the side of moving the EMS helicopter system of NSW into the future. Morris Iemma has distanced himself from the Carr mismanagement and aledged underhanded deals of the past. If this is to be a truely open tender then it needs to be monitored and scrutinised by the media and the public to ensure that the political deals do not restrict the tendering process. Well Sea Breeze you wanted stimulation. I have put my head up and expect to get hammered for it, but something needs to be done to ensure that this tender is a fair and open tender without the spin Doctors influence. |
Future EMS NSW
Shouting just a tad there JAT mate. Some good points have emerged; especially SB’s notes re availability and I tend to agree with the dedicated professional approach. Here are a couple more firelighter observations but not grenades. First, the clip below predicts that those that cover under the veil of “charity” need to be bloody careful less the taxman may take the view that some of your legit deductions don’t turn out quite so legit in the future. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1670851.htm While tax is federal and the fed govt couldn’t give a flying root in a thunderstorm about state issues it is the state that pays for state services, or as others have pointed out their taxpayers do. What do state Govt’s think? 1) All oz states are labor. 2) Labor party worldwide employs advertising agencies to get re-elected not constructive policies. 3) In the NT an internal letter was leaked that showed that even though the govt when faced with its most embarrassing issue, that of aboriginal housing / child sexual abuse etc, the first thing that they focused on was their re-election stocks regardless for any inspiration toward the very unfortunate victims of the issue. That is what the potential successful tenderer is dealing with. Another point that comes to mind is the good advice that Mr Bristow got from his accountant, re suitablitity / affordability of product. There are those that pander that big is best, and others that smallest suitable is best. We certainly do not need flying twenty bed hospitals, good for train smashes but hopeless when hovering downtown (because they are too big to land) the down at heel suburbs as they will only blow away the houses of all of the needy (and remember this) non tax paying residents. I also believe that Vice Likes’ nom de plume, style and signature is abhorrent and look forward to the day when his flamboyant brashness is curtailed somewhat. If he owns the outfit he hints that he is part of well he can say what he likes. Of course with the rider that if his comments are still in the same vein then he will be regarded with the same disdain. If he doesn’t own it then someone should point out to the owners just how their shopfront is being displayed. Certainly if I was competing for the said contract and even though pprune is a gossip column with absolutely no liablility for substance I would work out how to use his comments to my advantage by portraying them as the attitude of the company that he represents. Very small beer there Mr Vice Like! Apart from that I reckon JAT has come up with the best common sense outcome so far but hey, since when has any oz govt tender system been based on common sense? |
Topendtorque your right Just another trick is very loud maybe anger management is required. Sandblaster all services have days off line they just pay the penalty depending on the contract. May be the meat raffle did not sell that week so it was cheaper to be off line.
I like the political connection, as we all know its there but how do you stop corruption at that level. |
wusfaba wusfaba wusfaba
|
They claim to be tendering for it
|
As already mentioned, their ad clearly states they are tendering for various contracts & so they want to know what crews are available if they should win any. Seems very sensible to me.
|
I understand that this is a rumor network, but a little bit of fact checking would be a fine thing:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
|
I am sorry for the miss information
When I explained that Careflight failed to provide services delivery, I was incorrect. Yes Incorrect, I stated that Careflight failed to provide services for · IFR capabilities · winch capability · Doctor · crew due to duty hours or sickness I am sorry for miss leading you. I used the word days and yes this is incorrect. In-fact:
So Sea Breeze and Sagy34 this should answer you question. No wonder it is cheap to run such a add hock service. How long would you maintain your contract in free enterprise with this sort of service capability? Just another trick thanks for your heart warming comments, however you need to review your comments Service delivery factor (value for money) Careflight seams to fail to provide the goods even with three helicopters. By the way the facts quoted only apply to the Sydney rescue machine as it would be to embarrassing to include the rest. Next time you get ill, just make sure the professionals are around and not the NGO (bleed all dry). But get ill soon as the professionals won’t be around for long as the Politicians will soon step in and open the way for the NGO’s to continue their unchallenged lack of service delivery. So lets all learn the NGO call to arms, Politician, Politician, come all Politicians, join our boards, support our cause, come all politicians and protect our cause. |
Mmmmm .... Sand Blaster,
When I visited CareFlight (westmead) albeit quite some time ago they had a BH412 which along with the crew WAS IFR capable and was used that way when required. They now have a BK117 which was obtained with some difficulty due to it also needed to be an SP IFR machine. Perhaps as others have indicated ... you might need to check your facts!!! := :bored: |
Facts are correct
Mr Selfish, Careflight are contracted to provide 24/7 coverage so hours include this but I like the 14-year bit that makes it sound even worse. Just goes to show how much flying one could do, or in this case not be available to do. Sagy34, 412 was also SP IFR it was sold because the chook raffles were not doing well. |
JAT, Hammer, the contract the present services have states that the aircraft be single pilot IFR. When CareFlight got rid of the 412, and picked up that rather disgusting excuse for a replacement, the auto pilot did not work. After it was evident that this would not be fixed quickly they were financially punished by health.
It is interesting to note that for several years the surfies operated their machine 2 pilot IFR, as it did not have an auto pilot. They quite often did not meet the requirement as they did not always have a co pilot. At the end of the day it does not matter how much value the community get out of a machine that is IFR, it all boils down to the fact that the contract states that the aircraft will meet certain specs. I have said this before, the problem that the NGO's have is that they think they run the show, and they treat the customer like they are morons! If they lose the contract it will be largly because of their appalling attitude and treatment of the customer. They can then bleat to the media and try to do their normal spin doctoring in trying to do what they did 10 years ago and have the successfull tender winner kicked out. Thank god the tender closes on WED 12 July, lets hope the Govt gets it right this time!! fatty |
Just another trick
Don’t forget, that the charity vacuum cleaner is spread over a very large distance and sucks many communities dry, these areas are well outside Sydney and require IFR capabilities to reach them on many more occasions than 15%, What is Careflights area of operation? what of the total lack of aircraft availability? What is the night VFR hours verses IFR hours, for surf and careflight? Who is the Customer? Fatrat What happened 10 years ago? seems that this could do with some expanding or was this just a comment in Jest? |
IFR
There's more and better reasons to go IFR than only when it's IMC!
|
Seabreeze,
About 10 years ago when the contract was out for tender CHC or LLoyds at that time won the tender for the whole of NSW, the NGO's all got together as one(first time ever they all agreed on an issue) and fought the Govt's decision, with a very bitter anti Lloyd campain. Lloyds to their credit did not respond to any of the smear campain, and basicly stood back and allowed the NGO's to get the decision reversed. Lloyd were given the Canberra contract through South Care. The contract in NSW was a performance based contract, which the govt renewed on one or two occasions. The reason it is actually being tendered again now may be an indication of how satisfied the Govt is with the present NGO services. I guess that we will all find out in the near future if the Govt is serious about improving the services to NSW. Having just said that we must remember that NSW are due for elections early next year, and it would surprise no one if the decision was delayed until after the election, and leave the diry job of anouncing a re think to the incoming Govt!!! If the NGO's get up they can expect to be treated more like a commercial entity, with the same restrictions for things like maintenance down time. At present they enjoy the 6 24 hour periods per month, (without providing backup)which can be pooled to allow them up to 18 days straight down time without penalty. fatty |
Are we being conditioned to think that NGO’s are cheap
What is the cost of the community helicopter model to the mum’s dads and the retired? What is the cost to local charities, Sea breeze asked? What downside is there to the health system? Sea breeze uses the term CVC, this Charity Vacuum Cleaner regularly sweeps the countryside and urban areas, to feed its insatiable hunger for the charity dollar. These fundraisers use techniques that can often be intimidating because of the callers or doorknockers reluctance to take no for an answer. So where does this money go: · CEO $150,000.oo to $200,000.oo · Chief pilot $150,000.00 · Crew Chief $90,000.oo · Secretaries $50,000.oo by say x 2 · Fundraises full time $50,000.oo say x 4 · Vehicles by many?????? · Media spokesperson???? · Board members expenses · Accountants???? · Legal team (A very large sum for some) · Payroll team $60,000.oo *Essential staff eg pilotis crew engineers are exempted from equation because all operators require these assets My Point is a charity helicopter cost around $800,000.oo in wages before any of the essential staff or flying assets are factored into the equation. $800,000.oo is also a very conservative figure, as many of the staff numbers have not been truly represented, the true overall cost of each staff member has not been adjusted to calculate, insurance long service leave or superannuation, and other ongoing costs. How many community helicopters are there in NSW.
There will be Five Community Helicopter Operators with the above costs plus their regional satellite bases which incur additional costs in fund raisers managers etc. NSW Mums, Dads and the Elderly must DONATE just under Five million dollars just to feed the CHARITY machine without buying one drop of fuel or aviation asset or essential staff payment. 5 million Dollars WHAT a rip off, but its a cheap service. “To Who” What of other local charities, they beg for crumbs, whilst many local causes suffer greatly because of this highly structured and relentless feeding upon the community’s good will and charity dollar. On one of the NGO’s Annual reports for 2005 it states that cost for fund raising was $4,546,000.oo, whilst total funds raised were $8,424,000.oo This equates to 50 cents in the dollar raised goes to obtain the funds. Do those donating realise this? Shame NSW Government stop hood winking the public, make this a fair and transparent tender. Why doesn’t NSW have a government funded and run EMS system like Queensland, don’t NSW taxpayers deserve the best the government can provide. Let charities be for non-essential services and let the charity dollar stay within their communities where it is needed. Tenders are closed and the NGO’s will now commence their networking of influence how much money will be spent on wining and dinning and lobbying for support . Fatrat (interesting info, and very much on the mark) If the professionals get the nod this time will they sit back and allow the vacuum cleaners to maintain their EMS strangle hold on the industry or will they fight back. I have a question to all Why do the charity helicopter group have the advantage of charity protection? whilst it could be argued that they are running a commercial business under the disguise of a charity. Are the overseas transport jobs performed at cost, or are they in direct competition with non-charity international transport businesses. Why has the media never reported on the way these charities do business? What is the role of a charity in the Australian EMS industry. Answer They are the true UNTOUCHABLES |
Lucky you live in WA SB, you won't have to pay the extra rip off taxes of the NSW gov to pay for the fully funded private operator providing the Sydney/Orange helicopter service, then later the Newcastle, Tamworth, Lismore and Canberra contracts. Where else will the pollies/public servants get the money for it. They can't sell the Snowy now and they have to have their pay rise too. You got it right Fatrat, nothing will happen until after an election. If the NGO's get the contract, the NSW Ambulance Service will pull the reins in and make sure they have 24 hour coverage.
I'm sure the folk way out west will be happy paying for the Sydney machines and only ever see them on the news. At least the charity dollars are from people in the areas, whether it's Lismore, Newcastle, Tamworth, Orange, The Gong or Sydney and the dollars stay locally not going O/S. They are not forced to donate and if the organisation is above board there will be an annual report go out to all the regular donors, so yes they know where their money goes. Yes there is a lot of fat in some charity organisations but that seems to be the nature of the beast these days and me thinks $50K for a secretary may be a little on the hight side. Lets see waht happens in September.:ok: And does it matter, whoever gets it, will need crews, just have to make sure CV is up to date. |
Sandblaster
For someone who lives in Perth (west coast of Aus), you are getting pretty hot under the collar on this one.:* I disagree that a fully Govt. funded service would be cheaper. You obviously are not aware of the cost of QLD Rescue or VicPol. PS: I believe that the Chief Pilot is an essential part of the operation (even though you may not think that in your little equation) |
Sand Blaster
You some up the NGO helicopter industry so well. "Ouch" |
cost base for ems
Oogle,
Sand blaster raises an interesting point in terms of system cost and who actually pays. Unfortunately his cost model is a bit out but the basic components are there vis the cost of providing the service. Base costs are the same for the any helo operator vis crew, cost of capital, cost of insurance, facilities maintenance and fuel. Take any of those out and neither operator is going flying for long. If you take a philosophical view and work on the cost to society there is not much difference between the NGO and fully funded. NGO still needs to suck the money in and their cost of doing that ( aka fundraising ) balances against the cost involved in contracting a commercial operator and spreading the cost through taxes. Not much different cost to society really and I suspect the NGO model may be more expensive due to economy of scale. Any new contract hopefully will put the emphasis on where it should be.Service delivery to the patient. A cost model point for consideration: What's the cost comparison between 25 hospitals in kickatinalong requiring a fully staffed emergency department at 1.5-2 million per year if you can get the staff, versus an adequately resourced quick reaction helicopter capability delivering within the " golden hour " I suspect the helo model wins hands down. Then there's the politics and dogma .........:ugh: The Eye. |
Oogle
Thanks for the reply, yes I am a born and bred blues supporter. I have many links to NSW and a network of contacts there. As you gather I have questioned the NGO model for a very long time. You are correct in regards to the chief pilot position, he’s role within the organisation is crucial in providing discipline and the nucleus for the safety culture within the said organisation, but does NSW need 5 of them. And yes a secretary is in reality priced between $30000.oo -$50000.oo Catseye has understood the whole point of my last post. Why does NSW need to spend 5 million dollars each year needlessly in excess staff, whilst not increasing its operational helicopter capabilities? LHS You have raised the question in regards to helicopter areas of operations. You implied people out west would not be happy in paying for the Sydney machines when the only time they would see them is on the evening news. “Surprise” after performing a simple search on the internet all NGO helicopter rescue websites in NSW proudly display and quote the long distances they cover. Some even display maps that cover most of the state. The LifeSaver helicopter of the Southern Region boast the following: Our flight path takes us north to Toukley. North West to Dubbo, tracking south to Wagga Wagga and on to the Victorian Boarder. http://www.lifesaver.org.au/our_role.htm “Yes they are based in Sydney” So what is a local area in regards to operational helicopter coverage and what is the financial area for fund raising. (You can’t have your cake and eat it as well). This continued call for aircraft to remain in the local area is naive. It is generally raised when NGO’s and there supporters have their backs against the wall. This tactic can be seen periodically in local newspapers in different regions during difficult times. It represents the NGO’s call to arms, it is a war cry designed to rally their troops, who have been conditioned to believe that the helicopter should not proceed beyond an invisible line in the sky. No wonder the health authorities have had a gut full of these manipulating organisations that continually fail to provide the services that they so much promised to provide. As many have stated before, it is time for a State funded and State controlled medical helicopter network that is not hampered with the in fighting and the media manipulation that is created by the NGO model. Does anyone know what is in the new tender bid in regards to aircraft or other requirements? People in the know seem to be very tight lipped in regards to this. |
:eek: :eek: Did anyone read the artical in the Sydney Morning Herald on Saturday in regards contracts?
|
No, but I'd like to...any chance of digging that up for us Seabreeze?
|
It surprises me that it has taken 2 months for the incumbents to leak their propoganda to the press, blind freddie can see that this is the same tact they took some 8 or so years ago, when that Canadian company won the contract for NSW. A very nice we can't comment was added so that Health can't have a peice of them though. :eek:
I guess they must be getting worried, otherwise this article would not have been in the paper. I still have my doubts as to whether this will be announced before the elections, guess we may know in a few weeks time, eh! Fatty |
|
I wonder if this means that we will be hearing again from that veritable ****** - Vice-like.
I heard the other day how Steve Irwin had died doing what he loved doing , and Peter Brock had died doing what he loved doing, and I thought, well, i wonder how our old mate vicelike is going? him being such a ****** an all. Uh-Oh at least the spam machine is working well, vicelike nearly got away with having a flogging good time!! |
HH
sounds like 'someone' or "some uninteresed party????" showed honorable minister a xmas catalogue of all the toys that he doesn't have. what an ego trip for him to buy a whole pack of new helicopters and show up the whole defence procurement department as second grade hams. For sure come Dec 31 when the current contract is due to expire you will look forward to; 1) snow job, 2)hearing from spin doctors and 3) an extension until after the election, end of story! heralding a user pays system |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 14:25. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.