SOCOM Takes Osprey To War

November 17, 2009: The first six CV-22 tilt-rotor ("Osprey") transports have returned from three months of SOCOM operations in Iraq. The marines have had MV-22s in Iraq for two years, and just sent the first squadron to Afghanistan. The U.S. Air Forcehttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif component of SOCOM is using the CV-22 to replace the current MH-53J special operations helicopters. Unlike the U.S. Marinehttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2.gif Corps version, the SOCOM CV-22B have lots more expensive electronics on board. This will help the CV-22 when traveling into hostile territory. The CV-22 also carries a terrain avoidance radar, an additional 3500 liters (900 gallons) of fuel and more gadgets in general. The 25 ton CV-22 is a major improvement on the MH-53J, with three times the range, and a higher cruising speed (at 410 kilometers an hour, twice that of the helicopter). The CV-22 can travel about nearly a thousand kilometers, in any weather, and land or pick up 18 fully equipped commandoes. The SOCOM CV-22 won't ready for combat for another two years.
SOCOM has had a GAU-2B machine-gun fitted to the bottom of a V-22, to test the practicality of arming the aircraft. This V-22 installation is a remote control turret using a six-barrel 7.62mm machine-gun. This system has a rate of fire of 3,000 rounds per minute (50 per second), and max range of 1,500 meters. The system weighs a few hundred pounds and includes 4,000 rounds of ammo. A member of the crew uses a video game like interface to operate the gun. This weapon is part of the Universal Turret System (UTS) for Helicopters. Plans for arming the V-22 have been discussed for nearly a decade. The original proposal was for a UTS equipped with a 12.7mm machine-gun. That has a longer range (about 2,000 meters), but the 7.62mm GAU-2B could lay down more bullets more quickly. Experience in Iraq and Afghanistan indicated this would be a more useful defensive measure. The UTS will be mounted on CV-22s as needed. The armed SOCOM V-22 provides an option that the other users can easily adopt. The machine-gun turret is mainly there for protection from local threats, not for turning the V-22 into an assault aircraft.
The V-22 is the first application of the tilt-rotor technology in active service. The air force is already working on improvements (to make the V-22 more reliable and easier to maintain), but these won't be installed for another few years. The V-22 gives the marines and SOCOM a lot more capability, but, as it often the case, this is a lot more expensive. The initial production models of the CV-22 cost over $60 million each. SOCOM insists on a high degree of reliability for its aircraft. Commando operations cannot tolerate too many mistakes without getting fatally derailed.

Refridgerate The Flight Decks For The V-22 !!
 

It's now official. The new generation of high-tech hovering aircraft - namely the famous V-22 "Osprey" tiltrotor and the upcoming F-35B supersonic stealth jump-jet - have an unforeseen flaw. Their exhaust downwash is so hot as to melt the flight decks of US warships, leading Pentagon boffins to look into refrigerated landing pads.

Talk about a hot ship
Stories of buckled flight decks caused by Osprey exhaust have been circulating for a while, but confirmation that the issue is seen as serious comes with the issue of a military request for proposals yesterday for "thermal management systems (TMS) for aircraft landing decks".
The proposal makes it clear that the Osprey - which is now in active combat service with the US Marines following a painful twenty-year gestation - has already been fingered as a deck-damaging craft. The F-35B stealth jumpjet, which has just commenced hover flight testing, is also expected to be fielded soon by the Marines, and could be an even worse pad-melter.


According to the request:The jarheads* will want to operate their new machines from their existing helicopter-carrier amphibious assault vessels, which can't practically be torn apart and refitted with massively reinforced upper decks as this would be likely to make them capsize. Similarly it would be extremely difficult to refrigerate the whole deck from beneath.
Hence the Marines would like someone to invent "a system that can be installed on top of the existing decks", capable of resisting the hot breath of the F-35B and less than one inch thick. It should also, of course, be tough enough not to suffer any damage from the aircraft landing on it. This miracle fridge-sheet assembly should be covered with "thermally stable non-skid" finish - this latter perhaps incorporating "amorphous metal coatings".
For help in the project, the Marines have of course turned to DARPA - really the only people to call when the exhaust of your super-advanced hovership requires a refrigerated landing pad, we'd suggest.
The full solicitation can be read in pdf here. ®
* US Marines are so called owing to their dislike of having any visible hair on the sides of their heads, or any longer than about 1mm on the top. The Marines aren't as tough as they think they are - frankly, nobody could be that tough - but even so, jocular commentary on their coiffure is normally offered only from a safe distance.
Source: V-22 Osprey, stealth jumpjet 'need refrigerated landing pads' ? The Register

V-22s In Af-Pak: Faster, Higher, Longer

DoD Buzz ^| November 16th, 2009 | Colin Clark

Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 5:14:36 PM by Yo-Yo

Now that the V-22s have landed in Afghanistan, it’s time to take a look at how they will be used. Robbin Laird, a defense consultant who works for the Marines — among other clients — got a chance to interview the flight crews of VMM-261, headed by Lt. Col. A. J. Bianca, about the concepts of operations they expected to follow. We’ve got links to the interviews, an interview with Laird and links to video of the V-22 teams undergoing deployment to Afghanistan and some of their training.


The top benefit of the V-22 in Afghanistan is a simple one, Laird said. It is not a helicopter. “Rotorcraft have been used for a long time in Afghanistan and the bad guys know how to target them,” he noted. Of course, that experience for many of the older Afghans includes using Stinger missiles against the Soviet’s helicopters.


The V-22 “gives the Marines a lot of advantages,” Laird said. The exact operating ceiling is classified but these Ospreys are operating at more than 20,000 feet.


In one of the interviews Laird did, he quoted a Marine pilot who noted that the Osprey does have limitations when it flies at its highest altitudes. “Now obviously, we can’t carry passengers at our highest altitudes. We can certainly carry cargo. We can go to get passengers and we can carry passengers down at lower altitudes. But flying at higher altitudes makes you a whole lot faster.


“And I see that really glossed over when this airplane is briefed, you know. The average ground person, or someone who’s not a pilot, or even a rotary pilot, may not fully understand it. At higher altitudes, you’re about a hundred knots faster than you are on the surface, in any airplane, Tiltrotor or otherwise,” the Marine told Laird.


Second, the Ospreys afford the Marines much greater range than do helicopters. Helos have to land much more frequently to refuel and Laird says the V-22s in Afghanistan “have been able to avoid many attacks because of their mobility.”


Also, the V-22 can provide the Marines with a more effective envelopment tool. Suppose a UAV identifies a target that is not susceptible to a precision strike and a helo can’t get there in time. A CH-46 or a 53 needs two FARPs to travel the distance an Osprey can cover without landing.


“I’ve got to bring the helo up one or two times and refuel it, and that’s a lot of hours,” Laird noted. “The Osprey is there in 90 minutes or, at least, much more quickly than any helo could arrive.” In some cases, the FARP for a helo mission will have to be established, eating up valuable time and increasing the vulnerability of both the helos and the ground crews supporting them.


“If you think back to Vietnam, that was one of our biggest vulnerabilities — having all these huge fuel dumps scattered around the country,” Laird said.

The other benefit of the Osprey’s extended range and speed, compared to a helo in terrain like Afghanistan’s, is that a smaller number of Ospreys “can support several combat groups at once.”

"SOCOM Takes Osprey To War

November 17, 2009: The first six CV-22 tilt-rotor ("Osprey") transports have returned from three months of SOCOM operations in Iraq. . . . The SOCOM CV-22 won't ready for combat for another two years."


Huh? Hey guys, it's train LIKE you fight, not WHERE you fight.

Ospreys to the rescue !
 

Why Helicopters Are Critical to Afghanistan War Success

Choppers Play More Important Role to US and NATO Forces in Afghanistan Than in Iraq

By Jay Price, McClatchy Newspapers
Nov 29, 2009

Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan - In one of the worst chapters of their casualty-marred deployment in Afghanistan,Canadian forces earlier this year lost 10 soldiers in 90 days to improvised bombs on one stretch of highway in Kandahar province. Then a US Army helicopter crew stalking Taliban insurgents who plant bombs at night spotted a five-man team, watched the insurgents through sophisticated optical gear until it was certain that's what the men were doing and got permission to kill them.
After that, no bombs exploded on that section of road for two months, says Col. Paul W. Bricker, a Michigan native who commands the Fort Bragg, N.C., based 82nd Combat Aviation Brigade, the Army helicopter unit for southern and western Afghanistan.
"There are stretches of these roads we have almost shut down to bomb activity, but it requires constant pressure to do that because even though we have a lot of aircraft, we also have a lot of territory to cover," Bricker says.
Choppers are critical to the counterinsurgency campaign that Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the commander of US and NATO troops in Afghanistan, is waging, but until spring there weren't enough of them, and even limited road surveillance gobbles time for choppers.
When Bricker's unit arrived in April, it had five times the number of helicopters of the unit it replaced. Now it's getting dozens more, some of them shifted from Iraq to Afghanistan.
By December, the US-led coalition will likely have nearly 10 times more choppers in the volatile south than it did nine months ago. That's still not nearly enough to patrol all the roads that US, Afghan and allied troops use, but it's a big improvement
The 68,000 US and 42,000 NATO troops in Afghanistan are spread across vast distances. The terrain is some of the harshest on the planet, and insurgents are planting increasingly powerful bombs, some of them capable of disabling even the massive MRAP, or Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle.
More than Iraq or any other recent conflict, Afghanistan is a helicopter war, according to ground troops, whose reinforcements, ambulance service, air cover and in some cases even food and water, arrive by chopper.
The additional Army helicopters will be used mainly in the western provinces, where there've been few.
The Marine Corps, beginning in late spring, brought in more of its own choppers as it built up a force of 11,000 troops in Helmand, the most dangerous province for NATO troops. This month, it added a squadron – usually about 10 – of the new MV-22 Osprey tilt rotors, which take off like helicopters but fly like airplanes.
Last week, the first of six British Merlin helicopters, which can carry 20 troops, arrived in Helmand. There's been a public outcry in Britain because of a belief that troops have been killed and wounded because British units had only a handful of helicopters.
The 82nd CAB has been rapidly building hangars, landing zones and other facilities across the region to be used by the units that will replace it, and setting up new satellite bases to put medical evacuation helicopters closer to troops.
Choppers save lives
There's no question that the choppers are saving lives daily.
In six months, the 82nd CAB has flown nearly 2,100 wounded troops to a medical facility within an hour, missing its goal only a half dozen times out of 1,400 missions, mainly because of mechanical problems, says Lt. Col. Ed Brouse, of Pennsylvania, the deputy commander.
Until this year, no wounded double amputees had survived because there were so few helicopters in Afghanistan and that the average medevac flight took two hours, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has said.
Bricker says that he's requested a few more crews to get more use out of his helicopters, but he said he has enough aircraft.
Well, maybe.
"If you ask any ground maneuver commander, they'll tell you we can never have enough helicopters in this environment," Bricker says.
In Iraq, roadside bombs also were the main threat, but distances were shorter, there were more roads and the terrain was flatter.
"In Iraq, helicopters were effective as well, but we had 150,000 troops there," Bricker says.
"This area is much more expansive, much more remote, and the conditions are austere, to say the least, in many areas, particularly where we work," he said. "The terrain here just swallows the infantry, and the aircraft enable us to cross all that ground rapidly, and with great agility and flexibility."
Crucial supply line
"Helicopters are an absolutely critical asset here," says Lt. Col. David Oclander, of Chicago, the commander of an 82nd Airborne Division infantry battalion that's spread across several small bases in southern Afghanistan.
He's standing on the dusty landing pad of a tiny Afghan Army post, Forward Operating Base Nawbahar, in Zabul province's high desert moonscape, where he has a small unit mentoring Afghan soldiers and police officers. The base was hours by ground from large US outposts, but minutes by air.
"Pretty much everything is brought here by helicopter," he says.
US and Afghan troops at the base get supplies via Chinooks and Black Hawks, and close air support from Apache and Kiowa attack helicopters. If they're wounded, they can expect to be airlifted by chopper to a medical facility within an hour. When it's time for R&R, they take choppers out.
It's not unusual for Black Hawks and Chinooks to fly half a million pounds of supplies and almost 2,000 people in a week, and when Special Operations troops need to be moved quickly to a fight, say when a high value target has been found, they need choppers, too.
Stalking roadside bombers
In population centers such as Kandahar, Apaches, with their sophisticated optical and weapons systems, and light, maneuverable Kiowa armed reconnaissance helicopters watch key roads at night, stalking insurgent bomb placement teams.
Their crews are trained to identify insurgents, and case studies and audio and video recordings are made from the helicopters as crews decide whether to attack suspected insurgents. They're also taught to speak as clearly as possible in the recordings about their thinking as they make decisions, in part so they can better defend their actions if insurgents later claim that a helicopter crew killed civilians.
Some of the 82nd Brigade's units are flying five times more than they do back at Fort Bragg.
Chief Warrant Officer 3 Lucas Whittington, of Lillington, N.C., a Kiowa pilot, says his troop is flying 1,200 to 1,300 hours a month, versus 800 to 900 hours a year back home, escorting convoys, providing close air support for the infantry and scouting for people planting bombs.
Maintenance is going 24 hours a day, with maintenance crews working 12-hour shifts, seven days a week.
(Jay Price reports for the Raleigh News & Observer. Nancy A. Youssef contributed to this article from Washington.)

The V-22 will show Army Aviation what "Faster, Higher, Longer really means !

U.S. Marines Launch First Major Afghan Operation Since Surge Announced
Friday, December 04, 2009

http://www.foxnews.com/images/service_ap_36.gif

KABUL — U.S. Marines and Afghan troops on Friday launched the first offensive since President Obama announced an American troop surge, striking against Taliban communications and supply lines in a southern insurgent stronghold, a military spokesman said.

Hundreds of troops from the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines and the Marine reconnaissance unit Task Force Raider were dropped by helicopter and MV-22 Osprey aircraft behind Taliban lines in the northern end of the Now Zad Valley of Helmand province, scene of heavy fighting last summer, according to Marine spokesman Maj. William Pelletier.

A U.S. military official in Washington said it was the first use of Ospreys, aircrafts that combine features of helicopters and fixed wing aircraft, in an offensive involving units larger than platoons.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to detail the operation, said that Ospreys have previously been used for intelligence and patrol operations.

A second, larger force pushed northward from the Marines' Forward Operating Base in the town of Now Zad, Pelletier said. Combat engineers were forcing a corridor through Taliban minefields with armored steamrollers and explosives, Pelletier said.

In all, about 1,000 Marines as well as Afghan troops were taking part in the operation, known as "Cobra's Anger," he said.

There were no reports of NATO casualties. The spokesman for the Afghan governor of Helmand province, Daood Ahmadi, said the bodies of four slain Taliban had been recovered. Ahmadi said 150 Afghan troops were taking part in the operation, which had located more than 300 mines and roadside bombs by Friday evening.

The operation began three days after Obama announced that he was sending 30,000 reinforcements to Afghanistan to help turn the tide against the Taliban. America's European allies will send an estimated 7,000 more troops to Afghanistan next year "with more to come," NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen announced Friday.

Most of the new troops are expected to be sent to southern Afghanistan, including Helmand, where Taliban influence is strongest.

The new offensive aims to cut off the Taliban communication routes through Helmand and disrupt their supply lines, especially those providing explosives for the numerous lethal roadside bombs, or improvised explosive devices, that litter the area, known by Marines as "IED Alley."

Pelletier said several arms caches and at least 400 pounds of explosive materials had been found so far Friday.

"Right now, the enemy is confused and disorganized," Pelletier said by telephone from Camp Leatherneck, the main Marine base in Helmand. "They're fighting, but not too effectively."[/B]

Pelletier said insurgents were caught off guard by the early morning air assault.

http://media2.foxnews.com/thumbnails...stan_90x70.jpg

Fox News Video reports MV-22s flew in from the North, a direction that took the Taliban by surprise:
Cobra's Anger - Video - FOXNews.com

Ospreys enter Afghanistan with more firepower




By Amy McCullough - Staff writer
Posted : Saturday Dec 5, 2009 8:54:59 EST

The MV-22 Osprey is in Afghanistan and ready to fight.
Ten aircraft from Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 263 arrived at Camp Bastion in November and were promptly transferred to VMM-261 out of Marine Corps Air Station New River, N.C., the first-ever Osprey squadron deployed in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. They were flown into Helmand province from the amphibious assault ship Bataan, which along with the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit was afloat about 600 miles away in the Gulf of Oman. The trip took about two hours. Reports also state that the Osprey saw action Friday as Marines and Afghan forces began a major assault in Helmand province, one of their first — if not the first — operational uses in Afghanistan.
The Corps is quick to tout the Osprey’s impressive range and speed, but critics have long argued that the MV-22, armed only with a 7.62mm M240 machine gun pointed out its rear ramp, can’t sufficiently defend itself in a hot landing zone. That’s no longer a concern, officials say, as these birds pack significantly more firepower.
Ospreys in Afghanistan will be armed with a 7.62mm belly-mounted turret gun, known as the Interim Defense Weapon System, capable of shooting 360 degrees around the aircraft. Additionally, the ramp-mounted M240 was upgraded to a .50-cal. They’ll need that extra potency to counter threats on the ground, which range in sophistication from advanced surface-to-air defense systems to crude shoulder-fired rockets.
The Corps has only eight belly guns. Five are in Afghanistan, and three will remain stateside for training and testing. Maintainers can load and unload the 800-pound system in eight hours, though it is likely to remain on the same aircraft for the duration of the time it is in theater, said Capt. Craig Thomas, a Marine spokesman.
To operate the weapon, a Marine gunner will use a controller, similar to one used to play a video game. He’ll acquire targets using a monitor that is fed color images from a forward-looking infrared sensor mounted beneath the aircraft.
During its 19-month deployment to Iraq, which ended earlier this year, the Osprey was frequently accompanied in missions by AH-1 Cobra gunships and UH-1N Hueys, which provided fire support when necessary. Despite the addition of a belly gun, it’s unlikely the Osprey will be making many solo flights in Afghanistan, said Col. Kevin Vest, who commands Marine Aircraft Group 40, the Corps’ aviation element in Afghanistan.
“There are times when the Osprey will fly solo, just like the C-130 does, but generally no aircraft flies alone,” he said. “When we are going someplace where we perceive there is going to be a threat, I will use everything at my disposal. The AV-8B [Harriers] will provide overhead surveillance, the C-130 will be used to fuel and for command and control, and the Cobra and [new UH-1Y Huey] will provide fire support.”
The Corps considers the IDWS belly gun an interim solution. It will be closely scrutinized throughout the Osprey’s deployment and may evolve in the long run, said Col. Greg Masiello, the MV-22 program manager at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md.

I bought a "Welcome Home!" round of Guinness for a dozen Marine Infantry and an Exchange Officer from the Dutch Marines last night....as they have arrived home from the 'Stan a mere two days ago and were in town on a bit of well deserved recreation.

They spoke very highly of the support they received from US Army Chinook units and bragged on the Chinook.....saying they loaded 33 combat loaded troops on the birds and went off on their missions.

Their praise of the Chinook and Army Helicopter crews made an ol' Hooker proud as the tradition carries on!

Sas

What does that have to do with the V-22. Maybe I should bring up "Roberts Ridge", Desert One, the Mayguez etc.. to say that transformation has arrived.

The Sultan

Let's see...So far, so good.A gun that can fire 360 degrees which the gunner will aim by looking at a screen showing him images from the forward-looking infra-red camera?

Ooooookay...

It'll be interesting to see how effectively and accurately a gunner can aim and shoot that weapon while in a aircraft that may be maneuvering in reaction to hostile fire! Now, will this be a dedicated gunner onboard (dropping the troop-carrying capability by one)? Or will it be the Crew Chief (wait- won't the Crew Chief be on the rear gun)? And let us not forget, we've heard that the belly gun must be stowed before the V-22 can actually land. How long does that process take? So...will they come to a low hover and wait while the gun is stowed? Or will that happen at some point during the approach? Oh, the more I think about this system, the more I'm loving it! 800 pounds! Dang, what does that do to the useful load? (Well, lowers it by 800 pounds, obviously.)So. They switch the rear gun from 7.62 to 50 cal. How much heavier is the .50 cal ammo? And what does this do to the useful load? Or have they merely reduced the amount of ammo carried?

In the book I'm writing on the V-22, this belly gun fiasco will probably have its own chapter!

I think you know, FH, that forward looking infra red is actually a 360 degree mount. :rolleyes:

I've often wondered why they are called forward looking when, infact, they can look anywhere.

MightyGem,
If you look back at previous posts from FH1100 Pilot, one thing that will become very obvious is that he does not have any knowledge whatsoever about forward-looking infra-red systems, tiltrotor technology, military operations, armament, or the V-22. However, he does have a lot of strong opinions on those subjects of which he has no knowledge, and he will not accept any input from those that have first hand experience with the technology or the current ongoing operations.

But at least he is not shy...

V-22 Payload
 

Sultan,

Just a guess, but perhaps SAS was wondering at what altitude a mission fueled V-22 with 33 combat loaded troops could hover OGE ( compared to his old technology CH-47 )?

Thanks,
John Dixson

Quick point on the weight of the ramp gun issue. The .50 cal is acually much lighter because it doesn't need an electrical system and it's rate of fire is much lower at about 200 rounds per minute if I remember correctly. The minigun fires at a rate of 2000/4000 rpm (low rate/high rate) or 3000/6000 rpm depending on the model.

FLIR used to be only forward looking, but as they advanced many organizations didn't change the acronym. In some communities the same piece of equipment is called the IDS or infra-red detection system.

The V-22 is replacing the H-46, not the H-47 in the Marine Corps. 33 combat troops probably wouldn't fit. And when looking at hot or high HOGE you only need to carry more than zero to beat the current phrog. That's why the USMC pulled a bunc of 53's from the boneyard while waiting for enough V-22's to come on line.

(Sigh) I guess I should know better than to try and even make a joke with this crowd. We've all (hopefully) seen pictures of the V-22 with the gun installed. It uses its own sighting system, not the one at the front of the plane under the nose. Maybe I should start using smilies. I hate smilies.

http://www.defensereview.com/wp-cont...with_RGS_1.jpg

In a way, the kids operating it will probably find it as easy as playing a video game (well, if they were playing while living in California during an earthquake maybe). Only in this "game" they get to make real people die. Every teenager's dream!

See? There is a lot of useful information that can be had when offered by people who know, rather than by those who hoard such information and then criticize others for *not* knowing. Kinda makes you wonder why the USMC didn't replace the 46's with '53's, eh? How many '53's can you buy for the price of one V-22?

I suspect we're going to find out. And soon. :ok: (Wait, I said I hated those. Damn!)

Sultan,

I will pose this reply to others that are present here....knowing it is a fool's errand to respond to you individually and actually think it serves any constructive purpose. You might want to read up on personal self defense as those kinds of books might pay you much more benefit than those you refer to. Then on another hand....they talk about brave men that fought face to face against a much superior force....something you know nothing about.

In time the "new" tactics are going to face reality on the battlefield and V-22's are going to be caught in hostile fire from close range and prove themselves every bit as vulnerable as any helicopter. What will you say then? Will you trash the Marines who are flying them as you have done to other combat veterans?

The fact the US Marines have to rely upon US Army helicopter support....that being Chinook CH-47's...is what this has to do with the issue.

Perhaps it might have escaped you but the Marines have poured Billions of dollars into the V-22 program that could have been spent buying helicopters that have similar capability to that of the Chinook.

That being helicopters they very badly need if they are going to operate in situations that the V-22 is not suited for....and is outside the concepts that brought the V-22 into existence. That being Littoral combat....which has turned out to be a very small part of their real life mission as evidenced by Iraq and Afghanistan.

The question that is begged is simple. Why have the Marines put so much of their budget, prestige, and effort into the V-22 when it has such a limited capability as compared to CH-53 helicopters which it is too replace?

"I Know - I Know!"
 

Dan Reno says:

Now Dan, I thought we agreed that we would not talk about FH1100 Pilot like that anymore!!

Oops, sorry, I missed the previous post! :O :)
(I like smiley faces)

All I have to say about that is...:ouch: ouch!

Guardian is an IR missile jam head, not gun targetting system
 

FH1000, That turret you highlight is not used for targeting the gun. It is used for jamming of IR missiles. See: Howstuffworks "How the Guardian Anti-missile System Works"