good luck guys in operatimg the V-22B un such harsh conditions...

Dan,

Thanks for the video link. This is pretty good as well YouTube - Combat Camera Video: CV-22 Osprey Film Shoots Footage, Part 1.

I thought from posts on this thread that no one could stand near a V-22 in hover or fast rope from it. These videos make those posters look like fools!

The Sultan

V22's in Afghanistan
 

Good to see that the Marines are willing to deploy the V22's to Afghanistan. It shows they have faith in the aircraft.

Of course, those videos show them taking off from a stable deck at low gross weights in fair weather conditions, and then performing relaxed STOL landings on tarmac.

Nice, precision formations during final approach, landing, and ground movements though. Way to go Marines.

Hey, I know those guys!!! :ok:

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']https://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/holiday/usmc2009/default.asp?isc=gdr1162a[/FONT]

Here is another related link to videos of the V-22 in action. Same host site as above, but for the MEU.


Digital Video & Imagery Distribution System

The Sultan sez:I don't remember anyone saying that it was impossible to fast-rope from it, or impossible to stand near it - only that the undeniably increased downwash from the V-22 would make these things more difficult. And as we saw in that video, you can indeed fast-rope from an Osprey down to a nice flat, moderately dusty surface. Let us hope and pray that all such fast-rope operations take place in such predictably good areas.

But I guess the bigger question is why some people feel the need to have others look like fools? It's not about that. On another discussion forum, some anonymous poster (you know how I love them!) said that I had been laying low lately and not posting much because I'd gotten my "ass handed to me on PPRUNE." As if that actually happened (it didn't), and as if that was important to him. He seemed gladdened by the idea that I get a good beat-down because of my views or because I think I'm such a big friggin' expert on everything (I don't).

Strange. But it is what it is.

The V-22 proponents surely do seem to have a lot of personal investment in the aircraft. They absolutely take any criticism of it personally, and they often respond in kind, lashing out at those who aren't rabid fans. I've merely been critical (okay, highly critical) of the aircraft, and I've been called things publicly (and privately!) that you would not imagine. You'd think I was trying to stop aviation.

I watched the video of those Ospreys making their nice, slow approaches, and I thought to myself in my Billy Bob Thornton/Slingblade voice, "Those things sure make mighty fine targets, mm-hmm." And it made me wonder...

Much is made of the V-22's extra, humongous speed, and its ability to "swoop" or "zoom" into an area to insert or extract troops, faster than a helicopter!! And yep, the Osprey can surely get there more quickly.

At some point the V-22 is going to have to convert back to helicopter mode. This will happen at some predetermined distance from the LZ, on a carefully-planned approach profile. And so my question is: From that point, if the Osprey and a CH-53 were side-by-side, which aircraft can get into the LZ faster? We all know that the V-22 can "get out of Dodge" really fast, and that could be a big advantage if someone is shooting at you. But who gets in quicker when someone is shooting at you? That's the important bit, yes? It's not like the V-22 is so stealthy that the bad guys aren't going to hear it coming until it's touching down or hovering while pooping soldiers out the back end (sorry, but that's what it looks like).

The helicopter pilot part of me knows that I could take *any* helicopter and get into an LZ damn quickly. But I'm no Osprey pilot, as has often been pointed out. So are they the same? Has anyone ever compared this? I am curious (Bob).

There are a lot of assumptions about the V-22 - conclusions to which we are expected to leap about how much "better" than a helicopter it is. I'm still not convinced.

FH1100 asks:
Bob,
There was a recent account on this thread of an observation that appears to answer your question given by Sasless:

Quote:

---

....an Osprey is doing night landings a bit closer than the 53D did.
Observations....
The 53D is a classic!
The 22 is fast, quiet approaching, but noiser than the 53D at a hover.

---

21stCentury, I guess that gets to the crux of my question: What happens *after* the V-22 gets back in helicopter mode? And where does that occur in the approach process? How soon before landing does the V-22 have to be reconfigured? And from that point on what is its airspeed and rate of descent? Can a '53 beat it in - guns a-blazing - from there? Or are they the same? As much as I admire and trust SASless's observations, in this case they're hardly scientific, and he wasn't in the LZ but out on a boat, no?

The fact that the V-22 is "quieter" as it approaches does not mean that it is completely silent or that it'll blend into the cacaphonous desert background noises or that it won't echo off the mountains. Even a caveman is going to be able to hear it coming at some point - maybe soon enough to pick up his AK-47 or RPG and go meet it?

I was at a Naval Air Station on the U.S. east coast some time ago when a CH-53 was doing autorotations. I stopped and watched because I could not believe what I was seeing. CH-53 autorotations! (No, not touchdowns.) I remember thinking, "That is one agile, manoeuvreable bastard for being as big as it is! I'll betcha you could ROLL that thing!"

How many LZ's and rotorcraft landings have I seen with my MK 1 eyes and ears FH? Reckon I might be able to speak to what I saw that day with some basis of experience and knowledge even if not scientific methods were not used? Recall I was very close to the LZ....and anchored sailboats are very quiet save the gurgling of the Rum Bottle emptying.

Oh, for the love of God...

Look, it was a simple question. During an approach to an LZ, which aircraft can get in faster from the point that the V-22 becomes a helicopter again?

FH1100, you seem to have your mind stuck in the Vietnam method of rotary wing employment. If you're planning on landing in an LZ where the enemy is actively engaging the LZ itself, your plan sucks. If you survive the mission, it's because you are lucky not because of your skill or how aggressive you flew the approach. Fly like you're in Vietnam, expect to get shot down like you're in Vietnam.

Also, if you sit in an LZ with clear line of sight around said LZ, ALL helo approaches look slow.

Thank you, busdriver for not answering the question...even though I agree with you. Let us just hope that the V-22 is always used in peacetime, where there is no chance that it might be shot at as it goes about its business. Sounds like a good plan! "Bad guys" never shoot at helicopters anymore, eh?

Meantime, I'll just wait form someone to chime in with a real answer.

Bob,
There is one person posting on this thread who is uniquely qualifed to accurately answer your question. He has years of experience on the CH-53 and years of experience on the V-22 with countless approaches into LZs in both aircraft. He has been verified as credible by all the regulars here. So why don't you just ask your friend Mckpave!!
:ok:

Having watched and experienced both Chinooks and the V-22 going in and out of Lzs my impression is that an experienced pilot in the V-22 does have the advantage.It seems to be a question of how quickly the pilot goes though the transition,how late he leaves it on the way in and how quickly he accelerates on departure.

As Murphy states....."The best made plan only lasts until contact with the enemy."

Ask the folks who fought at Robert's Ridge!

Sometimes you find yourself nose to nose with the bad guys.....and that is when all this becomes an issue.

Are you saying we now value airframes more than we do wounded guys on the ground?

SAS,
I think what busdriver02 was referring to was an 'insertion' where enemy fire was expected or encountered, not 'an extraction of troops under fire.'

Of course you are right that if there are those on the ground needing help, the a/c commander will make the decision to lay ground fire (if capable) and/or go in whether it is a helicopter or a tiltrotor.

see it with your own eyes FH
 

FH, if you checked out the above links and watched the one of the 53s and 22s landing in Iraq than you've seen it with your own eyes. Having seen 53s land from all different perspectives (in the air as an escort, in the back as a pax, and from the ground) what you see on that link is pretty representative as to how 'fast' a 53 lands in that type of environment, which was about the same as the V-22. I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for. By no means have I ever heard anyone (other than you) characterize a 53 approaching an LZ as agile and maneuverable.

I doubt that FH1100 will get the answer he is looking for because he is asking the wrong question.

Once the V-22 is in helicopter mode, it generally flies at the same rates coming into a zone as a comparable sized helicopter. As noted above, many helicopters have the same published restrictions as the V-22 for rate of descent- and they are not a factor for them in tactical approaches.

The entry rate and approach path into the zone is a tactical decision based on factors such as threat level and zone size.

However, what is missing from FH-1100's question is how fast a V-22 can get in and out of a zone from a somewhat farther distance and how it is able to enter the zone.

The V-22 can come in with a lower nacelle angle at a faster speed and convert as it approaches the zone. If you consider a maneuver such as the standard helicopter quick stop, the tilt-rotor can use nacelle angle tilt (nacelles go aft of 90 degrees) to reduce speed as well as using pitch attitude like a helicopter does. The V-22 is able to convert and decelerate very rapidly if necessary.

On takeoff, the V-22 can lift rapidly and clear the zone at speed, reducing its time in the critical area of vulnerability.

More important than pure speed for safety/success in many zones, particularly at night, is field of view. In this respect the V-22 has great advantages. By use of nacelles, the pilot can keep the pitch attitude level while decelerating and approach the zone without needing the typical nose high attitude of a helicopter. This way the pilots can keep a better sight picture of the zone and actually come in with less risk, and potentially faster. In smaller zones that require steep approaches, the tilt-rotor can actually come in with the nose lowered and full aft nacelle to maintain a constant clear sight picture of the landing spot.

So-
Yes- an FH-1100 can probably get into a landing zone quite nicely carrying one sack lunch for the pilot. A UH-1Y can get to and into that same zone faster than the FH-1100 and with greater payload. From any significant distance the V-22 can go to and from the zone multiple times while the FH-1100 is putting along. The CH-53E can get into the same zone as well, probably while externally carrying several FH-1100s. All of them will adjust their rate and type of approach to the threat in the zone.

And the fine warriors of the US Marines and US Air Force will probably get their mission completed with the tools they have chosen to do their jobs so we can all be safe to sit here and pontificate about their aircraft.....

Israel drops interest in V-22, eyes CH-53K evaluation
By Arie Egozi

The Israeli air force has abandoned its evaluation of the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey and is instead showing interest in the capabilities of Sikorsky's developmental CH-53K.
Israel confirmed in 2007 that it was evaluating the V-22 tiltrotor, but an air force source says its interest has now been terminated. "The V-22 is not on our current list," the source adds.
The need for a new vertical take-off and landing aircraft became more acute following a decision to phase out some of the air force's legacy CH-53s. As an interim measure, it is prolonging the service lives of some of these aircraft by upgrading them to the CH-53 2025 configuration.
"We will wait for the CH-53K and evaluate it when it flies," says the air force source. The new type will maintain almost all the basic capabilities of Sikorsky's previous CH-53E, but will be capable of lifting a much heavier payload.
The US Marine Corps is expected to begin operating the new K-model transport from around the middle of the next decade