Regarding the fact that the Marines "may consider buying fewer V-22 Ospreys than planned and instead add more helicopters to its aircraft fleet":

This is what I explained to Dan on a previous page in this thread -- the tiltrotor is not here to replace helicopters. Although capabilities and missions overlap at times, helicopters and tiltrotors both have their place in the MC OOB. As to the percentage mix in procurement and mission assignments, that is not for us to decide, it is up to those who oversee, execute, and evaluate battlefield performance to make the decision. It should be left to those who understand the requirements and capabilities the best to determine which aircraft are initially purchased, then deployed in theater, and finally assigned to each mission. If the current decision made by those in a position to know have decided that it is prudent to modify the ratio mix by slowing the rate of Osprey aquisitions and increasing that of helicopters, then we should respect their decision knowing that it is based on first hand information.

It is a shame that when people who have first hand knowlege gained from flying the V-22 for the USMC or USAF come to this forum, the information they bring is rejected before they have a chance to fully present it (see earlier in this thread). Rather than appreciate the first hand information and discuss it in an intelligent way, there is an extraordinary effort to 'run them off' as quickly as possible. Sad...
(glad to see that not all threads on PPRuNe go this way)

Not only are they run off, they are apparently banned from posting on this subject!

Gregg

I was hoping you were talking about both Dan Reno and SASless for their continued posts calling our brave Marines liars. Apparently SAS is still posting. Very disappointing, apparently he gets away with threatening people by PM which should not be allowed by this site. Still hoping Dan is the one you are talking about.

To SAS

From my earlier post I just noted (at least by your hero G Duh press releases) that USMC Pilot's war was won, nothing else intended. As to be carried off on a stretcher, sorry to here that. Be interested to know the circumstances and if they could have been avoided by being quieter, able to ingress and exit a hot LZ faster and why your much faunted offensive armament did not protect you?

The Sultan

Sultan,

Quote the post where I called the Marines "Liars"!

Post the PM that you consider a "threatening post" and let Senior Pilot pass judgement on that for us.

Seems odd I have no record of having sent you any PM but I will trust you to be telling the truth there and thus you can confirm it by posting it in the public forum here.

As to your attempt to denigrate my service in Vietnam and those like me by suggesting our weaponry let us down....perhaps you over look the reality of combat when you find yourself right there amongst the enemy who are shooting at you with small arms, light automatic weapons, .51 Caliber Heavy Machine guns and even RPG's.

Over Two Thousand of my brothers died in combat flying helicopters in that war....we paid a terrible price and deserve far more respect than you consider appropriate.

We put up with asshole comments like yours in the 60's and 70's and did not care for it then.....and we especially do not care for it today.

This is a very small world we live in Sultan....pray God we don't fetch up in the same place sometime! I am far more threatening in person than I am on the internet.

Sorry to bring another issue up, but I just took a look at the US DOD FY10 budget and it is quite interesting read.

Apparently in FY2010, V-22 will cost 80mln USD per aircraft... that's exactly twice as much as C-27J Spartan, and 3 times more than a CH-47. That's just darn inefficient ! With other costly projects in history, like let's say F-22, or B-2 - high costs can be understandable as there is nothing to compare those to. But that is not the case with V-22, especially when with less than a price of one Osprey, DOD could have two other aircrafts, that would be capable of doing it's missions, more efficiently, and in every theater of operations.

If in Iraq V-22s operate only from one airstrip to another, couldn't the same job be done cheaper and faster with a Spartan ? And in Afghanistan, wouldn't the Chinook be infinitely faster, as the Osprey apparently can't operate there at all ?

Osprey to deploy with 22nd MEU

May 9, 2009 - 5:08 PM
JENNIFER HLAD
The 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit is preparing to deploy later this month with a new tool in its toolbox: the MV-22 Osprey.
The Osprey, a tilt-rotor aircraft that flies like an airplane but can take off, land and hover like a helicopter, has flown in Iraq, but has never deployed as part of a MEU.
Marines say that while there have been some challenges integrating the aircraft onto the ship environment, it has gone more smoothly than expected and will bring additional capabilities to the unit.
A MEU is made up of an infantry element, a logistics element, a command element and an aviation element. The aviation element includes different types of aircraft to be used for different missions. The Osprey will replace the CH-46 Sea Knight helicopter in the MEU's arsenal.
"The MV-22 brings more lift, range and speed to the Marine Expeditionary Unit than ever before," said Col. Gareth Brandl, commander of the 22nd MEU. "The range allows us to put troops on the ground further inland than before, and the speed of the aircraft allows us to mass forces more quickly at shorter distances."
The Osprey can carry about twice as many Marines per airplane than the CH-46, said Lt. Col. Paul Ryan, commander of VMM-263 (Reinforced), the 22nd MEU's aviation element. It also can climb and descend quickly, and regularly flies at 7,000 to 10,000 feet, whereas a CH-46 rarely operates above 4,000 or 5,000 feet for long. The increased altitude can mean increased survivability, Ryan said.
During the MEU's pre-deployment training, the Ospreys allowed the Marines to do a 200-mile raid in about a four-hour window, at night - something that would have taken two days with the CH-46, Ryan said. During another training exercise, the Ospreys participated in a 400-mile operation in five to six hours, which would have taken days with the CH-46 and required the ships to move.
The long-range capabilities make the MEU more prepared "for current world events," Ryan said, noting that the aircraft will be based on ships, while Afghanistan is many miles from the ocean.
But integrating the aircraft into the MEU - and onto the ships - was a bit of a challenge.
The Osprey has a larger footprint than the CH-46, and while the MEU will only take 10 - instead of the traditional 12 Sea Knights - they take up a lot of room on the ship. The sailors and Marines had to "crack the code" on parking the aircraft to fit it and still allow some room for movement on the hangar deck, Ryan said.
The other issue is that the planes must be parked in a folded position, which is different than the way they are parked for maintenance. So, for maintenance, the Ospreys must be moved up to the flight deck, which means more work for the sailors and Marines.
But, Ryan said, there is still some space in the hangar deck to move around, and the challenges have been worked through.
"I thought it was going to be worse than it is," he said.
Capt. Chris Denver, an MV-22 pilot and VMM-263's adjutant, said all the pre-deployment workups have given the unit an idea of how to integrate the new aircraft.
"We're excited, looking forward to seeing what kinds of things we can bring to the table with the V-22," he said.
As for fitting the aircraft onto the ship, Denver said "everything went beyond expected."
There are some other challenges with the V-22 versus the CH-46, Ryan said. For example, the plane produces a lot more downwash, therefore kicking up a lot of dust and debris. It also is more difficult for things like rope operations, Ryan said.
But because the aircraft is new to the MEU, the unit approached training "with a crawl, walk, run mindset," Brandl said. "We didn't start with varsity level missions - we needed to master the basics first."
The integration went well, he said.
"We were extremely successful during our pre-deployment training and I fully expect that we will have a successful deployment," Brandl said.
Brandl and Ryan praised the Marines and sailors for their hard work, and said they are more important than any equipment.
"We definitely consider our personnel to be the ... most precious asset," Ryan said.
"We're extremely proud to be the first MEU to deploy with the Osprey," Brandl said. But, "it's equally important to highlight how the hard work, dedication and sacrifice of every Marine and sailor in the MEU has made this unit ready to conduct any mission, from combat to humanitarian assistance."

BTW Sultan, I too did a tour in RVN (69-70) and lost several friends there and resent your childish antics. You have reached a new low.

Now there is a new concept....take the aircraft out of the hangar deck and move them to the roof to perform maintenance! I don't reckon it rains, snows, or salt water spray or anything like that on the open deck? I assume there might even be a bit of wind if the Ship is headed somewhere into wind.

Now if we cut the numbers of aircraft from 12 to 10 and apply a 68 percent readiness rate.....

How does one maintain "Light Discipline" after 1MC calles for "Darken Ship!" and still work on aircraft set out Topside?

V-22 and Hot LZ's
 

Sultan wrote ( to SAS ):

"Be interested to know the circumstances and if they could have been avoided by being quieter, able to ingress and exit a hot LZ faster and why your much faunted offensive armament did not protect you?

1. V-22 ingress to LZ will probably be about the same as a helo, especially when one thinks about a formation landing. I assume the 40kt/-800 fpm envelope restriction will remain in place too. ( I'm taking the liberty of defining the ingress stage as the last, say 2 nm to the LZ )
2. V-22 will exit faster without question.

As to the discussion of defensive armament in Vietnam with re to either the USMC helicopter or the US Army helicopter mix, and assuming a "hot LZ" situation: Both used armed helicopters as well as door gunners. With the V-22, there will not be armed helicopter escort, so the defensive fire plan will rely on USMC fixed wing assets and that RGS 7.62 mm remote controlled gatling.

Taking all into account, I don't think USMC will utilize the V-22 in long range contested area assaults. They will employ the V-22 so as to use its strengths and avoid the "High Noon" situations that occurred with regularity in Southeast Asia.

Of course for short range assaults, the USMC will have integral armed escort available, but that mission isn't why one needs a V-22.

Thanks,
John Dixson

Getting a chuckle over cost concerns. 80 mil is a lot, but then over on the VH71 thread, you read that the basic VH71 goes for 357 mil and change. Since political party's have to reimburse the gov't for using military aircraft for purely political events, I wonder what the White House would be charged an hour to fly the VH71?

If any variant of a helicopter cost more than an ASW version - then there is something fundamentally wrong with it... you just can't go more expensive than ASW, it shouldn't be possible. So yes, the VH-71 is an overwhelming cost overkill. Although we don't know what a competitor would cost in the same circumstances - so like in F-22, and B-2 - no comparison available, and cost discussion is pure academics.

In the V-22 case- there is an comparison, especially as its both a plank, and helicopter (or actually neither, as it appears to be the sum of their cons ;) ) then here are two types of competition, and both can do the job cheaper.

Don't get me wrong, I want to like it, I want to see the point. But the more we know about its performance, it's more and more a purely political thing, an abstract without grounds in reality.

If you had a company that transport cargo - would you drop what you have - a Skycrane, BV234, ATR-72, DHC-8, etc. - and go with Osprey ? I wouldn't. And that's what essentially it's job in the military is, to haul cargo from point A to point B.

Dan,

What did you pilot?

I can not see how someone who flew air combat ops would disrepect our front line protectors like your posts have done to propogate your irrational hate for the V-22. That is why I assumed you were not a combat pilot sorry.

Anyone who has flown combat knows farther, faster, awesome acceleration, acoustic and thermal stealh wins the day, not whopping in to give the enemy 10 minutes to set up.

The Sultan

Wow, just heard the rumor that the mystery member "who was banned" described above was usmc helo. Is this true? Just for the record, what are the things he said that we all need to avoid to prevent this from happening to us in the future?? Please advise...
thanks...

No one is or was banned.

A couple of posters were given a couple of days off this thread, to consider their public spat. Maybe one or two others should take note, and reconsider their attitude(s) :rolleyes:

The Phrog has been mentioned several times, but the other aircraft meant to be replaced by the MV-22B was the CH-53D. The Delta was originally programmed to be the first type replaced by the Osprey in the early 1990s, but has been retained in service in the medium-lift role long after its EOS date, initially for operations in Iraq, and now for use in the 'stan.

The Corps still has over 30 Ds in service, including several reclaimed from Davis-Monthan, and it looks like they may now be getting some new glass, suggesting that they'll be around for some time to come.

V-22 Maintenance
 

Whilst part of the team looking into UK helicopter procurement in 2000, I was the team's lead for the MV-22. Part of the ILS study we did stated that all maintenance could be done with the wing folded and nacelles and blades in the stowed position.

Can I ask what has changed that means the cabs have to be moved to the flight deck for maintenance? Or is it a csae of journalistic (intentional) error to over-emphasize a point?

Nick

Article on V-22 deployment. It answers some of the questions being asked.

Defence Helicopter May-June 2007 - Webmag

Military investigating unplanned landing
 

Short Video here:

News 14 | 24 Hour Local News | Coastal | Military investigating unplanned landing

PENDER COUNTY, N.C. – Military officials continue to investigate after an MV-22 Osprey aircraft made an unscheduled landing Wednesday night in Pender County.
All crew members from New River Air Station got out OK.
A Marine Corps spokesperson said the aircraft experienced an engine problem and was forced to land in a grassy area at Holly Shelter Game Land.
After fixing the problem, the crew tried to take off again around 7 p.m., but exhaust from the aircraft started a grass fire. That caused some damage to the aircraft's exterior. Forestry officials and firefighters were able to contain the fire around 11 p.m.
Military personnel have since removed the aircraft from the field and taken it back to New River Air Station.
The Osprey has had a history of mechanical issues. In 2000, four Marines were killed in an Osprey crash near Camp Lejeune.

A later report stated that a Park Ranger noticed a large man suspiciously resembling SASless belly crawling up to the aircraft through the 'tall grassy field' with a Bic lighter in his hand just before the fire. As the flames erupted around the Osprey, the man was seen running away high stepping at great speed as he was heard to be yelling, "Yahooooo, BOOOOONDOGGLE!!!"

Some people will do anything to make their point...
:)

Now if I could just be as accurate forecasting the stock market!:{

"They warned us-but no one would listen."
 

Gee, what a (another) surprise:

Recent V-22 Foibles

-----------------------------

Also, a new June report:

V-22 Lies Exposed

------------------------------
"The V-22 Osprey program is the largest scandal in the U.S. military."