Hot refuel during Hover
 

excuse me if has come up in the past, but not knowing any rotorheads I thought here may be the best place to ask.

Can a helicopter refuel during the hover? I am assuming here Military rotary of course would need to perform this operation.

Is it difficult/safe/frequent etc? And exactly why more to the point!

Also excuse my ignorance of such things!

Haven't heard of it, and my initial reaction is that it would be a silly and pointless thing to do, in that the increased downwash and greater likelihood of fuel spills/catastrophic accidents would make any perceived benefits not worth the added risk, particularly if you consider that if there's enough room to put a fuel supply somewhere, there's a good chance you could also land a helicopter there.
On the other hand, if there was some absolutely life and death reason that it was needed, some kind of sealed pressure refuelling system could probably work.
Maybe the yanks have already done it, they seem to trial all kinds of weird and speculative stuff 'just in case'.

Picture Here

http://www.hoppie.nl/forum/var/Refuel-1.jpg

Is this what I think it is? Sorry should have posted earlier but didn't know how. This is the pic that I found. Looks like a Military Rotary being refueled in the hover.

flash8

Nice picture, but why would anybody want to refuel in the hover, with all the attendant increased risks, when there is a perfectly serviceable bit of ground available.
Might be of some use to increase the range of a helicopter by having fuel dumps located in the mountains where a landing might not be possible.
Will be interesting, or maybe not, to hear if anybody has some real instances of this practise.

Called HIFR (helicopter in flight refueling), it is done all the time, especially by Navy helos who can do it from ships without decks, or do not want to take the time for a deck landing, or to keep the deck clear. It takes specialized fittings and training, the hose is passed to the hovering helo, and the crewman fastens it . The fitting is usually placed near the door for ease.
Here is a Sea King, Lynx and Sea Hawk

In flight refueling of helicopter from USS De Haven
http://www.ussdehaven.org/images/and...s/050_HIFR.JPG
http://www.ussdehaven.org/images/and...es/image45.htm


http://home19.inet.tele.dk/sobertow/...riton/Hifr.jpg
http://home19.inet.tele.dk/sobertow/...riton/Hifr.jpg

http://www.ross.navy.mil/images/web%...s/dsc00034.jpg

Just to add to the above, have done this on several occasions to extend radius of action on SAR missions when the deck is pitching/rolling outside landing limits, or is awash. Much safer for all concerned than attempting a landing well outside limits on a highly unstable deck.

I thought the US coastguard machines could do it air to air also. Isn't there a passage in Sebastian Junger's book The Perfect Storm about a rescue heli having to ditch after several failed attempts to dock with the probe ?

To add to the above it is also done in the Navy when you have a deck that the aircraft cannot fit onto. A good example of this is in the Falklands when two seakings were sent with two destroyers to prosecute a suspected submarine sighting. It was too far away from their parent ships to sensibly transit back for fuel etc so they took some extra crews who stayed on the ships and then when they refueled they also changed the crews by winch. I can't remember how long they stayed airborne but it was quite some time with at least a couple of crew changes. They didn't find any submarine (not knowingly anyway) but I'm sure left a few more whales with headaches. A whale can give a sonar contact like a sub. If you're not sure then a depth charge will show you the difference!!

That makes things more clear. Extending range at sea by airborne refuel from a boat certainly makes sense, particularly if the sea state/ships movement is excessive.

As for air-to-air stuff, It's probably been on PPRUNE before, but the following video clip shows how not to do it.....

Click here ----> In flight refuel incident

This has been done too by a Squirel during an attempt - failed - to break a distance world record for which no landing was authorized. They used a system very similar to the one in the first pic. I have seen the pic but can't remember who or when and I think it was in south Atlantic between Senegal and Brasil.

ATN

Punt,

The aircraft in question was an Air Force Blackhawk from the New York Air National Guard. One crewman was lost and the others were picked up by a USCG Cutter.

Do you still get charged a Landing Fee?

If not might have to see if any local aerodromes offer a rotors running and aircraft airborne refuel.



:D

puntosaurus and SASLESS,

The incident in the perfect storm was an aerial refueling one, the US Air Guard has C-130 refuelers as part of the BlackHawk rescue unit.

HIFR
 

The `Fish-heads`(sailor-types) are fond of HIFR when there are reports of enemy subs in the area. The frigates like to weave a lot and they can´t do that when you are taking off and landing on their deck. So, they briefley pause to let you hook on then they can resume weaving around whilst you tank-up. Had terrifying night in a Wessex 3 whilst the Makey Learny frigate skipper practiced the concept in the Channel off Portland.

May sound daft but it`s a bloody good technique to have up your sleeve.
:)

Arm said:

Don't you feel like you should have been paying more attention to your professional development now instead of flying around casually with your arm out of the ferkin window??;)

Does a helicopter taking off while still attached to the bowser count as HIFR?:uhoh:

Geoffersincornwall,

I have trouble with the idea that weaving the ship will help it at all, unless U-Boats are still out there with dumb, unguided torpedos. Modern subs with wire guided and automatic tracking torpedos, as well as various missiles that could care a fig if that 20 knot pile of steel (known by its nick-name, "Target") is weaving about.

Sounds like the British Navy has the same type of fellows that CAA does when they make you memorize Morse Code!

If naval ships still weave, it is probably to drive off those pesky helicopters!

Hot refuel during Hover!
 

With reference to the thread title, can I suggest that a hot refuel during the hover is always considered to be far safer than a cold refuel in the hover. :D

TeeS

Geoffersincornwall,

The notion that HIFR allows "Mother" (you're ship) to manouver is not correct. Whether you land or do a HIFR, the ship must maintain a steady flying course to maintain relative wind for the Helo.

Cheers,

:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

Showing my age
 

NIck Lappos

Well to put things into their proper context (late sixties) we were still carrying out the dreaded DIDTACS whereby a Wasp with AS 12 (range about 6000 yds) was vectored into to a night attack on a Fast Patrol Boat (supposedley fitted with ship destroying `Stxy` missiles) by a second helo (Wx3;SK) who sat at a safe distance, whilst Joe Soap flew overhead at 3000 feet and provided vital illumination (4.5 inch parachute flares). Off course nobody mentioned in the brief the fact that the FPB had highly rated AAA that could blow anything out of the sky withing 4000 yards. There was no rush to play the ILLUMINATOR!!

So Nick, what I`m saying is that escorts still were still weaving in those days, What they do now perhaps somebody can tell us.

As to the ex-Navy jock that believes that landing and HIFR bring with them the same limits all I can say is that things must have changed `cos I was that driver and believe me the brief was to open up the manoeuvring limits. We were towed around like a dog on a lead and had a tough time keeping the hose intact. This was at night too!! Maybe the envelope is not completely opened up but it was a million miles from being a steady course and speed.

Daedal_oz,
I guess I haven't taken enough notice of what those crazy pussers get up to when they're out on the high seas...I'll have to think harder before opening my gob in future!

I was peripherally involved with a similar programme when Bristow decided they needed it for a Puma operation in Australia. The equipment for refuelling in the hover is commercially available.

Flight Refuelling manufactured the manifold assembly that was installed on the airframe filler necks on the fwd and aft tanks. The idea was to winch up the hose, then fill both tanks through the single filler port. For the life of me, I can't remember if this was a gravity system, or a closed circuit - I seem to think it was a closed circuit system of some type.

They had sent someone up to measure the installation for the aircraft, and FR manufactured a really nice piece of equipment to install on the aircraft. There was only one minor glitch to the entire cunning plan, the measurements and planning for this great escapade had been accomplished on a Puma in heavies at ABZ. Due to the status of the inspection, the machine had no cabin doors installed, which also conveniently made everything so much more accessible. When the moment arrived to install the great invention, there was considerable embarrasment when it was discovered the cabin door could only be opened about 8 inches, due to the manifold being installed on the fwd filler neck. :\

Still, never ones to let minor problems interfere with our success, we continued to perform the flight testing portion with the poor winchman trying to manhandle the fuel nozzle and attach it all, through a rather small opening in the cabin door! We did fly-away and break-off tests with the line connected and various other fun things to pass the weekend away productively.

Although it did prove possible to refuel the aircraft in flight, the entire project quietly went away. As did an internal aux-tank (concept) for the Puma that was going on the same weekend, that involved an S58T aux tank stuffed in the tail supported on wooden trestles. :eek:

I actually have pictures of all this fun and games somewhere.

Perhaps the best one was the S76 ferry tank system that could neither get in or out of the aircraft doors. It sure looked nice assembled on the hangar floor though!:8

Ah, them was the days!

My uncle was flying back in the late 70's in a 500 on deer recovery. He said that they were very low on fuel and stuck above cloud, so his shooter climbed out and walked along the skid to the back door. (there were no doors on the machine) He refuelled the machine in the hover from jerrys in the back.
I dont think this is recomended back was the only option at the time.

In lime and fertilizing spreading operations some operators have installed airborne refuel capabilities on their spread bucket.

The system works in the way that when you come in over the rig and change spread bucket the new bucket have a small fuel tank that fills into the helicopter fuel tank. So the system refills the helicopter tank during the short flight to spead the lime/fertilizer.

It is just a small amount of fuel on each bucket, but the system allows the helicopter to fly at minimum fuel all the time and thereby increase lift capasity. The time-in-air limiting factor will be the pilot, toilet, coffe or food. Maybe in an other order:D

I have seen this system on Bell 205 and AS 350.



CB

HIFR
 

The Royal Navy Merlin have trialed many a HIFR but have now realised due to the sheer size and weight of the bloody thing, it burns as much fuel through the three engines as what it can take in during the actual HIFR!! (from a merlin engineering friend!)
HIFR in the RN still remains essential when on missions such as Anti Surface Warfare where they are a long way from mother ship. The SAR role may use it also whenever there is a frigate around on their way to a long ranger.

'Collective Bias'

This system is so smart that this just has to be in Sweden, no other aviation authority would approve such a good idea.

Of course to add a bit more fun to the whole evolution, the pump pressure of the ships was and probably still is so low, that you have to hover very low over the water to overcome the "uphill" bit so that the amount delivered is more than the amount burned.
Can be interesting at night and in rough weather (the reason perhaps the deck is not available for land on...) You tend to get a lot of salt ingestion as well


Igor:
The ship can turn while HIFRing, as long as the relative wind stays within limits, and depending on the aircraft, can be a large range from port or stbd.

Think it's fun for the pilot, how about the poor s*ds manning the hose, having a tug of war with a 10 ton seaking in cr*p weather, hoping the pilot doesn't over control and break the weak links, letting the whole lot flop over the side into the sea!

I've done it in anger a couple of times and practiced it far too many times (practice bleeding is always fun)

EMS R22...pull the other one mate, it's got bells on:ouch:

Hover re-fuel.
 

Hallo Pruners,

From experience I can tell all, that a hover refuel once prevented an accident.

Returning from a crop spraying calibration at Sutton Bridge in 1976, as I lowered the lever for landing, the left skid began buckling from a fracture of the forward eg. The type was a F28C Enstrom. The ground refueller/chemical loader signalled the problem to me. Rotors turning chemical loading was normal for the operation, but not Avgas refuelling.

The fuel state gave an estimated 5 to 10 minutes remaining.

The engineer, Tony Ticehurst called on the hand held and suggested he could make a short term repair fix but which might need more time. The usual refuelling truck was on site and as the machine was held in a hover around five gallons was loaded. (fire extinguisher equipment well at the ready as we had full fire cover for the spraying operation. The engineer was able to secure clip a supporting brace (claw jemmy) which allowed the safe landing.

Later it was suggested to me It might have been better to put the machine down on a suitable tree stump, but we couldn't find one ! An accident definitely avoided.

Mr Coupling

This has happened more than once in the old days. We do not all operate from airfield to airfield in shiny new machines where everything is done by the book!

Belive me this has been done.

I seem to remember a similar skid repair was done at Blackpool about 15 years ago after a wire strike in a 206 [no, it wasn't me] and at least one RRRF was done while they fitted new skids.

Wasn't the origin of the maritime technique with Air Whaling in the early 1950's?

There was chinook in the mid 80s at Gutersloh that had to refuel in the hover whilst a rig was constructed to enable the a/c to land without rear undercarriage. A heavy landing during an auto I think but not sure.

I wonder where Thumper is to-day??

R1a

Now, Now Mr Coupling. Don't give EMS R22 a hard time. His Uncle said it happened so it MUST be true. I bet it was also the biggest deer ever shot in the whole wide world.

Don't spoil the poor lad's vision of his hero uncle.

Hi

Does anyone have a copy of the photo of pilot and passenger out on the skids of a Hiller (I think) over San Francisco Bay - PR shot I think - it might make R22's story seem very believable.

TeeS

Roundwego , thanks for your kind words. This was not an uncommen thing to do back in the day. Thankyou TeeS for not taking the piss out of my like old Roundy!


I dont think it was the biggest deer ever shot . The biggest deer ever shot, was shot on the ground not out of a machine.

I do have to agree with ems R22, that it has been known to be done in the old days. That story is actually in a great book called the venison hunters!! and very well documented in there. Even though R22 maybe be a slight rattler dreaming off the good ol' days, He is right!!:ok:

Thanks ems300.

Do i know you. Were you mustering in aus with me and Coight in 2000?

might have been there. you should never own up to some things and where you have been!! I know coight though. You still hot refuelling? or am inot meant to say that?:oh:

I dont shut my 500 down to gas up. Do you ?

EMS Fags stop chatting each other up on this forum