Bell 407
 

Seems that I will get the oppotunity to do a B407 endorsment in the next few weeks.

Aany comments, notes or nasties i need to know about before I start.

Cheers IHD

How is your tail rotor malfunction currency....


http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/A...if/redstar.gif

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Thermal runaway.

Don't get wrapped up in that hysteria. There is no evidence right now to suggest the accident in the gulf had anything to do with the previous tail rotor issues on the 407. Bell has flown over 400 flights on instrumented aircraft with the new tail rotor configuration, hitting points up to and including 0.1 second full left pedal inputs at Vne. The data was given to FAA and TC and the configuration approved.

As I said in the other forum, this reminds me of the hysteria surrounding the 76 throwing blades and turbine wheels, the 'Falling Star', the Hu500 lead lag link failures, the AS350 spherical brg failures, the R22 tossing main rotor systems.....etc etc. These problems come up on aircraft, and the certification system takes care of them. Unfortunately, sometimes it hurts. A lot. But hysteria and rumour mongering does not serve anyone.

Now, if you do start to fly the 407, and want some constructive advice.....it's a very simple helicopter with oodles of power. My best piece of advice would be to not panic about the FADEC failure procedures. Many pilots who fly 47s, or 212/205s in manual seem to get overwhelmed by the 407 in manual. Why? I don't know, but it happens. Don't think of it as a 'failure', all that's happening is the helicopter is telling you it doesn't have enough information to control the fuel flow anymore, and it hands the throttle to you. Period.

And make sure your Ng is at 0 before turning off the battery.

Good luck!

This entry is remarkably similar(almost word for word) to the one Lu Zuckerman drafted in the "justhelicopters" forum!!!?

However...whoever you profess to be (and you should know better Lu), please keep sight of the fact that this is an unadulterated forum where people (short of offensive and libelous language) can air their views freely. One doesn't want an authorotative figure wandering around the forums whipping people into line. Hysteria it is most certainly not, ramblings, maybe. I suspect the hysteria may lie in your camp?

Chill out, go have a cup of tea....relax


http://www.gograph.com/Images-7298/A...if/redstar.gif

P.S. They have just found the tail section of a helicopter in shallow water local to the crash scene of the 407 that went down. I wonder if it is similar to a 407 tail section?

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Thermal runaway.

same hysteria as with the 76 throwing blades and turbines...?

I think in respect to the memory of those innocent people involved in 'blade throwing' 76 you might like to rephrase that remark.

PS. In fairness to Lu, I think you'll find that he was merely quoting the previous thread from Crash test Dummy, then responding to it.

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Another day in paradise

[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2001).]

212man. You're right, the language may have been a little flippant. Certainly meant no disrespect to those who've lost their lives or loved ones in 76s or anything else for that matter. I've lost enough friends to this industry to have had that circuit breaker reset years ago. The point was to illustrate that all aircraft experience problems which inevitable either get fixed, or the aircraft fails of its own merits. If any offense was taken, I apologize. By the way, were you in Somalia in 94?

Thomas Coupling, you seem to think it's all a bit of a lark. While preaching the merits of an open forum, without offensive or libelous language, you're quick to make stupid assumptions on an accident which killed someone. Is that not offensive? Believe me, there's no hysteria on this end, but I will try to provide accurate information when it's asked for. Maybe you should try the macrame sites.

[This message has been edited by CTD (edited 10 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by CTD (edited 10 January 2001).]

I have 2 years on a 407 and it's the greatest Aircraft that I've ever flown. It may be a perfect little Intermediate, but those darn tailbooms keep falling off?
It's very responsive in flight, crisp accurate control, Longlining is a snap, it just makes you look good.
It has auto-start. After 24 years of holding starters and winding throttles, that took me some getting used to!
The FADEC is extremely accurate with the Nr control, it never droops, hardly overspeeds, but in Manual throttle it's a bit of a bear, way more touchy than a 212. The onboard computer records every parameter, so pilot abuse is not possible without the wrench knowing exactly what you "pulled".
The best thing about the aircraft (other than the (EX) 140Kt speed is the climb rate, it climbs out like a Home-sick Angel. Initial rate of climb at gross is way up towards 2,000 FPM. It's been described as a mini-214 by some(who have 214 time)

Some problems, other than the new 110 Kt VNE (effective today) are:
-A very short distance from Butt to Pedals ..if you're over 5'8" it's going to be uncomfortable to fly for extended periods.
-A very high collective setting in cruise, to the point of having your elbow touch the back wall, uncomfortable at first.
Any more questions, comments email me at: [email protected] Fly Safe!

CTD, Good point..

"And make sure your Ng is at 0 before turning off the battery"

You know the Piston Parking excersize I take it, I found that one out too.

Would you guys agree the Bell 407 is the loudest helicopter in its class.....by far ?

While other manufacurers have produced quiet helicopters , Bell makes em louder.

I totally agree that they are the loudest new helo about. Louder than any BK & when you are at a pad with EC120's & 135's in & out, the 407 is actually obnoxiously loud. Bell, me thinks you paniced to quickly upon learning of the B3 development. Back to the design board for you cause these tree huggers & greenies are not going to go away.

The 407 is a wonderful machine to fly, and certainly a step up from previous generation helicopters. Of course, the comparisons to the 350 are as common as Ford and Chevy.

It will outperform a B2/B3 in some categories, and lags behind it in others. I haven't flown it at altitude, but friends who've worked them in the Himalayas and Rockies say they perform very well. At sea level, on low gear with a hook it scoots along at an honest 140kts. at 85%Q. You can use a 200 or 250 gallon Bambi and blast away at fires, or sling six drums of fuel to your fuel cache. In utility config, you can go full pax full fuel. It has a crisp, firm response and excellent tail rotor authority.

Overhaul costs are less than its competition, and will get better when the target lives are reached, and product support is the best in the business.

On the down side, it's not as comfortable as the A-Star, and doesn't have as much baggage space. The debate over "open cabin vs control tunnel" is split 50 /50. Some people like the open cabin concept for the visibility it offers. Others, like some corporate, law enforcement, or those who carry frieght internally prefer the cockpit be separate. Whatever. What that box beam cabin does offer is a high degree of structural strength. I always felt exposed in the A-Star, and found it akin to sitting on lawn furniture. Not much protection around you.

What it boils down to is this......it is a great performing aircraft, as are all the newer generation helicopters. It has gone through some growing pains, as did its competition (remember?), but like the A-Star, will rise above that and find its place as a great helicopter.

There is a lot of speculation on the latest accident, however it did not fit the profile of the previous three. With the new configuration in the back, left pedal full pitch is limited to 17-19º with the pedal stop engaged. This will not allow blade - boom contact in cruise (far from it), as proven to the FAA and TC in flight test. The investigation continues so comment on the accident is not prudent.

Only been in one twice, what a marvelous machine! (If sex had skids, it would be a Bell ... :))

I can't make comparisons, however for the unexplained tail strikes lately, see my other poist, to which I've included the AD.

M407 Pedals
 

During the recent discussions about the 407, here and on other forums, there have been comments made on the tail rotor pedal position being uncomfortable. Anyone have any comments on this, or how it could be improved?

I flew our 407 for 5 hours on Saturday, and had a leg cramp for 24 hours afterwards. We need more length in the pedal adjustment, (I'm only 5"8" tall) The good thing...it would have taken a LOT more hours in any other intermediate to complete the work. Fantastic aircraft...even at 110K.

I agree and "second" everything that CTD mentioned.
I'm operating one of the higher altitude 407's in Canada, and it offers spectacular performance.
--I have "Placed" a measured 2,000 Lb load at 7,800 ft (+5c),
--I routinely fly snow-guns at a local ski area (1,800 Lb @ 8,500', -5c)
--I have picked up 5 + gear (winter) at 11,500'with 1.5 hrs fuel, no problem.

I could go on...

Astar vs 407...(Ford vs Chevvy?) I have a lot of time in 350's and don't miss them at all. If some guys like them, Great, then I don't have to fly one.

If you have any questions, send them to [email protected], I'd be glad to talk more about my 407 experiences.

LA City Police flew 3 407s for 3 years until replacing them with AS-350B2s. My understanding was they didnt like the tight cockpit with mission equipment installed.They had the typical early problems
and were really sick of all the ADs.
No complaints about power as ive seem them lift off with 6 fat cops and a full bag of fuel on a 95degree day.This included the weight of the nightsun , Flir and police radio package.
They also liked the 140kt speed until it was restricted.
The AS-350B2s more comfortable cockpit and 10 years previous experience with AS-350B1s made LAPDs replacement choice easy.
And of course Eurocopter was thrilled selling them 8 new helicopters.

I don't believe this problem exists on military aircraft because they are designed to be operated by the 5th to the 95th percentile individual.

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The Cat

Lu,

Surely a 5'4" woman fits in between the 5th & 95th percentile. Same for a 5'8" Man?

Edited because eye carnt spel

[This message has been edited by Ewan Whosearmy (edited 31 January 2001).]

Dear Ewan

The Bell 206 although it served as the OH 58 in the military was not built to military specifications and therefore did not comply with Mil-Std-1472 Human engineering design criteria for military systems, equipment and facilities.

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The Cat

In my opinion the jokers who design most helicopter cockpits made damn sure they never had to fly in them.

The older 206 models are particularly vile for anyone over 6ft.(I hadn't realised the more compact amongst us, Whirlygirl, also had a problem) There is NEVER enough pedal adjustment despite the fact that it would cost peanuts to provide more screwthread and detachable "turn-around" pedals. An idea for one of the accessory manufacturers perhaps?

I fly Bell 206B;L-3; and 407 helicopters. You can replace your 407 pedals with 206 pedals for better comfort. Ask your chief mechanic or Bell Service Center about it. Ofcourse all it takes is money.

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D.Brigham
Pennsylvania State Police Aviation

Lu.. Did I say I flew military?? No... so what is your point??? Because I don't see one.
My comments are in response CTD's request for opinions on the pedal placement and adjustability and whether or not pilots find them satisfactory. I don't. Being the Short arse that I am, AS I stated in my previous posting.. I use an obus form that allows me to sit further forward in the seat so I can comfortably reach the pedals. Now, because I use the obus form, I sit further forward in the seat than was probably ever considered, and as a result of the way I'm sitting the position of the cyclic is now no longer comfortable for me. So Solving one problem created another.

How can anyone correct this????... a better designed cockpit with more consideration to the variety of people working in them perhaps? Would it be a huge deal for BHT to make a design change in the adjustment limits of the pedals, A more comfortable seat? An adjustable seat? I don't know...

[This message has been edited by Whirlygirl (edited 03 February 2001).]

To: Whirlygirl

I simply stated that this kind of problem does not exist on a helicopter that was designed to Mil Specs, which require human engineering as a part of the design. The 206 was designed for a competition for a light observation helicopter for the US Army but there were no fixed design requirements. The Bell model lost out to the Hughes 369. Bell realized the potential for the basic design but it was pug ugly. They turned it over to Raymond Loewy an industrial designer and the 206 as we know it today resulted. He however did nothing relative to the ergonomics of the interior. Thus your problem resulted.


If you are the exclusive pilot in this 206 maybe you can check with Bell to see if it is possible to modify the cyclic stick to put a gooseneck in it to compensate for your forward position in the seat. That way you can reach the pedals and still have a comfortable stick position.

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The Cat

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 03 February 2001).]

Unfortunatly Lu, I don't have any such luxury. I'm not trying to create a specific case for myself.. I was merely providing an example of one of the problems we folks who fly the 206 encounter.. It's no more comfortable for someone who's 6'4" a different set of problems though. You are probably quite right that this "Raymond Lowery" guy didn't stop to consider human ergonomics... but since CTD asked.. I thought I'd answer with my own 2 cents worth....
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif :) http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Whirlygirl (edited 04 February 2001).]

I have about 500 hours in the 407 now and at 6'0" I haven't noticed a problem with pedal positioning, although there are other ergonomic limitations. I have about 350 hours in the 206L and I feel more comfortable in that cockpit than the 407.

407 airspeed restored in Canada....
 

See:

http://www.bellcustomer.com/files/St...0407-01-61.pdf

407 Settlement
 

Any comments regarding the $40 mill law suit award against Bell for the Brazilian accident.

This award surprised me. At the time my understanding of the accident was that although it fitted the tail rotor problem scenario this accident occurred after Bell had issued directions for its solution [I cannot recall whether it was an SB or an AD at that stage]. The accident airframe had not been modified when it had a tail strike and landed hard. Both fatalities were caused by the passengers [panicking and?]leaving the aircraft and walking into the main rotor disc [which was lower because of skid collapse].

There may be more detail on the NTSB page [I have not refreshed my memory on this one].

This was one of the last instances I expected Bell to cough up the cash.

No doubt it was more complex than it seemed at the time.

Interesting...I also thought these fatalities were caused by the passengers running away into the M/R Blades?

The pilot did an exceptional job landing the aircaft. He certainly deserves credit in that respect.

I mention this type of scenario in my safety talks, ....why leave a perfectly safe situation and run away into a fatal one..?

The first part of this award, must deal with the loss of life following the failure they experienced on the aircraft. The deaths were directly caused by the response to the initial failure of the tail rotor.

The second part of this concerns the judges comments regarding the attempt by Bell to "stonewall" the entire lawsuit.

Quote;
He also said Bell withheld information about the crash and the helicopter. Less than two months before a scheduled trial, Bell produced a 3-foot stack of documents and computerized data, not including the Brazilian government's crash report.

U.S. District Judge James Lawrence King opened the door to punitive damages and severely restricted Bell's witnesses as punishment for what Marks called "a pattern of stonewalling.''

The law may be an ass, but don't make an ass of the legal system!


Here is the NTSB accident report relating to the accident.

NTSB Identification: IAD99RA032

Accident occurred Friday, February 26, 1999 at BELO H., BRAZIL
Aircraft:Bell 407, registration:
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 1 Serious.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

About 1230 local Brazilian time, February 26, 1999, a Bell 407 helicopter, registration PT-YVI, Bell serial no. 53119, operated by Banco Rural, sustained substantial damage following loss of tail rotor control and an autorotation to a hard landing. Of the three persons on board, the commercially certificated pilot sustained serious injuries and both passengers were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the corporate flight that originated at a ranch, approximately 20 nautical miles northeast of Pampulha Airport, near the city of Belo Horizonte. No flight plan was filed. The pilot was in radio contact with Pampulha Tower. The flight was conducted under Brazilian CAA flight rules.

The pilot reported that the helicopter was in cruise flight, straight and level at 110 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS), 3,500 feet mean sea level (MSL) and 700 feet above ground level (AGL), when he felt the left rudder pedal move forcefully forward and heard a loud bang. The helicopter yawed left and pitched nose-down. He regained control and performed an autorotation to a hard landing, sustaining back injuries. Both passengers, including a bank president, then exited the helicopter and ran into still-turning main rotor blades. Part of the tailboom, with the tail gearbox and tail rotor assembly still attached, was found approximately 800 yards from the impact site.

The weather was witnessed as visual meteorological conditions, in drizzle, beneath an approximately 1,000 foot overcast.

The helicopter was powered by a Rolls-Royce Allison 250-C47 engine, serial no. 847151, with a time since new of 341 hours.

The pilot, age 51, had flown approximately 12,000 helicopter hours, including 340 hours in the Bell 407.

Under the head of the investigation commission, from Terceiro Servico Regional de Aviacao Civil, Brazil, accompanied by an accredited representative from the Transportation Safety Board (TSB), Canada, and investigators from Bell Helicopter, Fort Worth, Texas, and Rolls Royce Allison, Indianapolis, Indiana, examinations of the tail rotor assembly were conducted, and two previous Bell 407 partial tailboom separations were reviewed. Prior to the February 26, 1999, accident, an FAA airworthiness directive had lowered the Bell 407 velocity, never exceed (Vne), from 140 KIAS to 110 KIAS. Bell Helicopter provided a technical bulletin that incorporated a left pedal stop, and if installed, the Vne was permitted back up to 125 KIAS. Following the February 26, accident, flight was forbidden without the pedal stop and, if installed, limited to 110 KIAS. Subsequently, Bell Helicopter incorporated an engineering change that effectively moved the tail rotor yoke farther outboard from the tailboom and provided other changes at the tail rotor assembly. With the engineering changes incorporated, Vne has been permitted back to 130 KIAS.

The tail rotor servo was bench-tested and disassembled at its manufacturer, Hydraulic Research Textron, Valencia, California, under NTSB supervision (Engineering Investigator Frank Hilldrup, from Headquarters, Washington, D.C.), with TSB Canada and Bell Helicopter investigators also present. The servo tested properly and no evidence was found of a previous mechanical problem. Contamination was found in the hydraulic fluid and is being further examined by TSB Canada.

For further information contact: Head of Investigation Commission, Lieutenant Colonel Antonio Augusto Walther de Almeida, tel. (55) 21 532-5431 or 240-3701, fax (55) 21 240-3701.

U.S. Accredited Representative: Thomas R. Conroy, NTSB, Washington, D.C., tel. (202) 314-6314

Bell continues to cough up Money on suits. Another one came out a short time ago in California for $8+ Million to the widow of a Pilot killed when his Bell 206L series ran out of fuel. Yes ran out of fuel. From what I gather the award was based on problems involved in fuel transfer pumps, guages etc. The true info is out there on NTSB reports, I dont have the exact.
Widow will collect more money than the poor guy could have ever made flying and it will be passed on to future customers.
Remember when a Cessna 182 was about $50k...........they are now around $200k.. Inflation, NO.........Lawyers, Yes.

Bell 407 info required, please
 

Anybody out there fly the 407? If so, can you tell me :. .(1) the current status re. the VNE restrictions . . . .(2) what sort of loading (pax / fuel) can you expect on a typical corporate-equipped machine? Or to put it another way if you have max fuel, what do we have left for the pax, and if we fill it up with average size pax, how much fuel can we get in?? . .. .Thanks in advance

Vne is 140KIAS. .. .407 in utility config = 2850 lbs. .7 SOB @ 188each = 1316 lbs. .Full fuel = 869 lbs. .Gross weight would be 5035, leaving 215 lbs for cargo.. .. .With aux tank, fuel is 1009, that would still put you 75 lbs under gross with a full load of bodies.. .. .The heaviest corporate ship I've seen, with a 3 axis autopilot, more radios than the average person could talk on in a lifetime, and pop out floats weighed 3260.. .Full fuel 869. .6 souls = 1128. .Gross = 5257, so you're seven lbs over. Bring a girl.. .. .Hope that helps you.. .. .BTW, if you carry them externally, you could SLING almost 13 people with fill fuel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> Need a warm climate though.

Thanks for that CTD. No shortage of power there, then. Sling load of 13...mmmm...that would bring a good return $$$ on pleasure flying days!. .. .If you did have it loaded to max all-up, how would she perform on an average UK summer day of say 15c (I wish!) Power to spare,or staggering into the air? What sort of weight would allow a vertical climb out of a tight landing site?. .. .Thanks. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 08:59: Message edited by: StevieTerrier ]</small>

At 15C at Max internal gross, you can vertical at over 1000FPM if you're silly enough to want to. . .. .At 6000 lbs, S/L, 20C, you can hover OGE and do left pedal turns. If you want to.

The above three posts assume you are at sea level. Put the thing at 5000 feet or above in the summer, and it will do none of the above.. .. .I love the aircraft, but Bell's supposed 'Hot & High' aircraft is great as long as it's not high! Now, if it performed like an AS350-B3 at altitude, then they'd have something!

We operate our utility 407's at altitudes of 6000 to 12000 ft with no problems. I've set 2,000 lb sling loads HOGE at 8,000' +10c. I've moved 1,800 lb+ snow guns at up to 9,000 ft with 400 lb of fuel (-5c). . .We routinely fly full seats/full gear plus a huge ski basket (all summer) with 600-700 lbs fuel, keeping vertical performance. It may not keep up to a B3, I don't know...never had the opportunity to fly one or even see a performance chart, but our 407 will out do any B2 that I've flown, and will certainly perform to the Bell performance specs in the Flight Manual.

Did some power-line construction with a 407 a few months ago, hauling 850kg sections on a 10 metre strop. Elevation varied btw. 2 & 3000 ft and daily temps varying between 15C in the morning to the low 30's in the afternoon. Reduced fuel to about 300lbs when it got hot but never had any problems with the machine. . .The 407 does not like it when you get above 5000ft and into the 30's though. Have been operating one doing fire-fighting with a Bambi bucket and at altitude about 600litres is about the limit.. .Despite all that a fantastic machine! Never flown a B3 either but may get one this season. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

Any 407 operators in UK?
 

Maybe returning to UK in the near future. Got 407, AS355, 206, H500 time, 6900 TT. Could get an IR if it seems worth it.

cheers

Phil

Paco what you doing in St Kitts ?