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There is also an issue with their secondary drive train (whether or not you use the 35mm upgrade). See the following for details, this guy seems to know what he's talking about (or at least has the data to back his statements)...
http://www.epi-eng.com/RW_TOC.htm |
Pilot killed in homebuild crash
Idaho Press report
Canyon County pilot dies in crash CALDWELL -- A longtime Canyon County pilot, aircraft designer and businessman died doing his life's passion when his helicopter crashed into the Payette River near Montour. Buford John Schramm, known to most people as B.J., was killed Tuesday afternoon when his single passenger helicopter crashed into the Payette River above Black Canyon Reservoir. http://www.idahopress.com/content/ar...ews/story1.jpg The helicopter -- described by police as an experimental single-person aircraft -- was spotted from an airplane Wednesday afternoon, upside down in less than three feet of water, with only the skids visible. Investigators said Schramm, who was found still strapped into the machine, died on impact. The crash left several members of the local aviation community reflecting on the loss. Schramm was known worldwide for his work as a helicopter pilot and designer. He had spent 35 years designing, manufacturing and test flying his own creations. His last six years were spent as owner of Eagle Research and Development, a helicopter design and manufacturing company located in Nampa. "He was such a good pilot," said Stuart Fields, a California broker for Safari kit helicopters, who knew Schramm from summer air shows. "He knew the helicopter business as well as anybody." Schramm's wife, Carolyn, said her husband was flying a single-person helicopter at the time of his death. The aircraft is called the Helicycle. Schramm designed and manufactured the Helicycle and insisted on testing the models himself as a safety precaution. On several occasions, Schramm had crashed his own creations and walked away. Carolyn indicated she was at peace with her husband's decision to be a test pilot. "That was part of his life," she said. "That's what he did." But Tuesday's ride in the Helicycle was not a test run. On that particular day, Schramm was accompanied by a commercial chopper and photographer who was assisting with a promotional piece for the Helicycle. Carolyn said the first helicopter turned back, but Schramm, who stayed to get one last shot with his helmet camera, failed to return. Gem County Sheriff Lt. Jim Barnhart said authorities became aware of the situation Tuesday just before 5 p.m., through a phone call. The caller said Schramm had left with one hour of fuel in his tank, but it had been two hours since he had taken off from the store in Montour. Sheriff's deputies spent the remainder of Tuesday and several hours Wednesday searching for the downed aircraft. The helicopter was spotted by a state Division of Aeronautics search aircraft Wednesday afternoon. Barnhart said the Federal Aviation Administration is conducting an investigation to determine what caused the crash. Carolyn Schramm said she and her husband had been married for 33 years, the last 13 of those living in Caldwell. They have two grown children and two grandchildren. She said Schramm also loved to ski and was a devout Christian. But flying and designing were all he had ever wanted to do in his life, she added. "Some of us were meant to be farmers," she said. "Some of us were meant to fly." |
Tribute from RotorWay International website
B. J. Schramm - In Memoriam April 29, 2004 It is with great shock and sadness that we express our condolences to the family and friends of a true aviation pioneer, B. J. Schramm. Founder of RotorWay Aircraft (later to evolve into employee-owned RotorWay International), he died in a helicopter crash in Idaho. After conducting a photo shoot in his Helicycle single-seat helicopter, he was reported missing. Yesterday, he was found in a river, still strapped in his helicopter. B. J. Schramm began working on affordable helicopters for the average man over forty years ago. His dream became a reality when he created RotorWay Aircraft and debuted the one-place Scorpion helicopter at the Oshkosh air show almost thirty-eight years ago. Eventually, the company introduced the Scorpion Too (a two-seater), which then led to even bigger successes. Soon, the Executive helicopter premiered and gave personal helicopter ownership a sleek new look and set ever-higher standards for the kit-built industry to follow. When the company was purchased by John Netherwood and then became RotorWay International in 1990, B. J. Schramm went on to create his new company, which produced the Helicycle. |
What a shocker. I spoke to B.J. over the phone a couple times last year, and he was very generous with his time. He seemed to be the kind of person that would share his in-sights and experience with anyone. I'm sure there are many on this forum who know him personally. Condolenses to the family and a great loss to small business aviation community.
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From the Helicycle Website...
There will be a funeral for BJ Schramm next Thursday, the 6th of may at 2:00pm at: Canyon Hill Church of the Nazarene 903 North Michigan Caldwell ID 83605 All friends and builders are welcome to attend. Builders: Please contact the factory regarding an anti bacteria additive for kerosene and diesel fuel. 208-461-2567 |
Rotarway vs. Robinson?
First off guys can you tell me which is better? I'm assuming Robinson because that is what 80% of flight schools use to teach students. What is wrong with Rotarway? Is it because they are an experimental aircraft and aren't assembled by a factory? I found a 2001 Rotarway Exec. 162-F Helicopter for sale. Its only got 46 TT. I'm assuming TT stands for "Total Time"??? When looking at a used helicopter what are low hours and what are high hours? Why or why not rotary? They are a lot cheaper than Robinson. I do recall a failur rate with Rotarway though. What are your guys' thoughts on these two aircrafts? Also can someone explain the different kinds of Robinson R22's and R44's such as the R22 Alpah, R22 Betta and the R22 Beta II. Also what about the R44 Astro, R44 Clipper, R44 Clipper II and the R44 Raven? Any bad things about the Mariners? I live on a lake and thought that would be cool. Wish I could afford a robinson.
BTW, I have decided to finish school or go as long as I can if I don't finish it and get my private license up here in NY to see if I like it. After I am done with college I will then go on to flight school. Does anyone know of any place in NY or PA to get your private license? Thank you to everyone who helped me. I can't wait to join you guys in the sky. Take care. Jared |
it's a "rotorway" exec by the way.
did you ever see charles bronson in "death wish":ok: :ok: |
Oh man your right, Im an idiot!!!! Thanks and no I haven't seen that but I think I get what your saying. Thanks
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Rotorway = High Risk Hobby
There is a serious flaw in the secondary drive shaft. See this analysis...
http://www.epi-eng.com/RW_TOC.htm |
They fly out of Stellar airpark right next to my school and Ive seen them trailered off at least 6 times, theyve had 3 failures forcing autorotation, and one rollover. All this with two ships in about 1 year. Not good statistics
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I was flying a friends when the oil bath casing cracked and poured oil over the rubber drive belts. The next bit seems like fun now.:mad: :ouch:
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I seriously considered a Rotorway Exec. I agree - they do look good on the face of it. Then I talked to someone who'd been involved with the FAA and knew about the accident statistics. Now...I wouldn't fly one if you paid me - and I don't say that about many things that fly. :eek:
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Somewhere on the Prune is another thread about certain mechanical problems with the Exec. Try a search.
Also, I've noticed very cheap low time Execs advertised for sale over the years in this country. |
My understanding (from 'A Helicopter is Born' on Discovery) was that the Exec doesn't have an overhaul life as such; once it gets to 2500 hours, you don't return it to the factory or agent; you chuck it in a skip and buy a new one.
A test I read mentioned that on the example flown there was no low-rpm horn fitted. Reckon that if it's a good idea on the Robbo (and the JR, and (insert list here)) then it would be a good idea on the Exec. |
Rotorway vs. Robinson?
A friend of mine who owns one, informs me that power available is marginal at best. Or as he described it, Two tubby buggers int front an it wor lift off.
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Kit Helicopters
It's funny, over the years many of the people that I have come into contact with in the industry both in the UK and abroad have at one time given serious thought to building a Rotorway. Inevitabley the vast majority are put off by the appauling safety record and limited performance.
It would be interesting to know however, if the Rotorway were as mechanically reliable as the R22 how many R22 SFH'ers would buy and build a Rotorway? Perhaps Heliport might consider turning this thread into a poll? CRAN [Edited for typos] |
A few years back I was in the position of looking at this same question. Spent a couple of years looking and researching - ended up buying a used R22. Overall that was the a better financial and mechanical choice than buying a new Rotorway kit. That must say something!
This was a common thread on the the rec.aviation.rotorcraft newsgroup when I used to frequent it - so common that instead of writing out the same stuff over and over I put it on my website. have a look at: http://helipics.homestead.com and go to the "To buy or Build" page |
Is the R-22 just as good as you guys are saying?? I heard that insurance companies in States are giving R-22 operators a hard time since they have been crashing left right and center over last years and many of them are changing over to 300cbi now and also that Frank Robinson is not planning to manufacture them for many years from now and focus more on the R-44. But there is no question I would choose Robby rather then Rotorway . But I would try to find an old TH-55 or Bell 47 rather than both Robby or Rotorway:ok:
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rotorrookie,
The R22 used to have a poor safety record, but it's improved in recent years...unless you know something recent that I don't. The basic problem is that it was designed originally as inexpensive personal transport, not for training. It's twitchy, somewhat unforgiving, and relatively difficult to fly. That said, many of us learned on it, and we find it easy to convert to other helicopters for just that reason; there's something to be said for learning on a difficult machine. Certainly other helicopters are easier to fly...or so they tell me; I haven't flown the Schweizer or Bell 47 or any of the other usual training alternatives. But with adequate training and flown sensibly it's not inherently dangerous, IMHO. Concerning the Rotorway Exec, I knew two guys who built one. They were small and light, so weight wasn't a problem. They were both engineers, and enjoyed the building and maintaining side - When I met them, they obligingly practically took it to bits to show me everything they could. Even so, they said they'd never do it again. It had cost them far more and taken far longer than it was supposed to. And they said for every hour flown it needed an hour of maintenance or more! :eek: We didn't even discuss the safety aspects. So for me anyway, it's a definite thumbs down for the Rotorway. |
In defence of Rotorways.
What's interesting about this thread, and most crewroom/flying club discussions about Rotorways is that in general the overall view is to stay away from them. The accident statistics alone would lead most people to this course of action.
What I cannot accept however, is that with the exception of one person on this thread, no-one has even hovered a Rotorway and most have probably never even seen one in the flesh. Yet, like sheep, peolple continue to make derogatory remarks. What's also interesting is that if any other aircraft was going to get disparaged (take the R22 for example) there would be a band of supporters who'd defend it vociferously. So why not the Rotorway? There are several good reasons why people don't stick up for the Rotorway: - the vast majority of people have never seen one, let alone flown in one, so are unlikely to stand in its defence. - of the few (Brits) I know that fly Rotorways, few post on here. - many Rotorway owners know the limitations of the helicopter and fly it accordingly, they know it's kit built and don't try to compare it with an R22 in terms of reliability or funtionality - they leave the comparisons for the ill-informed. - there seems to be a stigma attached to the Rotorway caused by the type of comments that have appeared on this thread, so few people will voluntarily stick their head above the parapet. So let me try and clear up a few misconceptions (and I will make comparisons to the R22 as this is what the mojority of this audience will be able to relate to): 1. The Rotorway is a kit built helicopter - designed on a budget for enthusiasts that enjoy weilding a spanner as much as gripping a cyclic. 2. The Rotorway has almost identical performance to an R22 - if the R22 is operated in accordance with the the Flight Manual limitations. (The difference is, no-one flies the R22 within the factory prescribed Limit Manifold Pressure. It's just systematically ignored at all levels from basic stude right up to CAA examiners). 3. The Rotorway has very forgiving autorotation characteristics and plenty of time to lower the lever if the engine quits. RRPM control in auto is easy. 4. It has a smooth rotor system; when correctly balanced. 5. It is stable in the hover and forward flight and can often be flown 'hands off' if correctly set-up. 6. When hovered in a cross-wind it is a doddle to maintain a steady heading, just like proper helicopters should be. 7. The Exec162F has a sophisticated fuel injection and engine management system so Carb Heat doesn't exist and malfunctions can be tracked, identified and easily rectified. What lets the Rotorway down: 1. They're built by amateurs who range from someone you wouldn't let loose to put up a shelf through to highly experienced Formula One engineers. Consequently, build quality is patchy. 2. The engine valve train is basic and requires careful monitoring and adjustment every 25hrs (1/2 hour job if you know what you're doing). 3. The Secondary drive-shaft has suffered from several premature failures as a result of flawed design or installation. Rotorway have reportedly fixed this problem with the upgraded 35mm shaft provided the factory chain drive is used. 4. If they're not balanced properly, and many aren't, they can feel crude and unrefined. I don't think people should lose sight of what the Rotorway is - a home-built helicopter. It's great fun and relatively affordable to fly but they need regular TLC if you want to rely on them. In fact the R22/Rotorway comparison isn't dissimilar to a C152/Kitfox one. One final request. If you've never flown one before, please don't give advice about something you probably know nothing about. (I don't comment on S76 threads because I've never flown one but I'd happily give advice on Pumas, A109s or Ec120 for example). If you feel the urge to make comments, do yourself a favour and get behind the sticks of a Rotorway and prepare to be suprised! They're great fun and a whole lot better than most would have you believe. J |
I am glad somebody came in with some positive comments. All my training and experience has been on the R22, but last weekend I flew a Rotorway for the first time. I was very impressed. The wind at the time was 20 gusting 25 to 28, and it was far far easier than any R22 to keep it in a stable hover - and I am no expert by any means. I also thought the general engineering and build quality was excellent.
I am seriously considering buying one and have not been put off yet! |
jellycopter,
Just because folks haven't flown the Exec 162F doesn't mean their opinions aren't valid; especially when pilots like RobboRider have done extensive research on the subject. According to your reply, it appears as though many problems with Rotorway aircraft are the result of owner/builder conflicts concerning expectations that don't match reality. This topic has come up from time to time, and I hope that muffin searches this forum for more info. I've stated my opinion on this topic before... this looks like a fun HOBBY. For those that are mechanically inclined, have a fair amount of disposable income, and have more idle time than they know what to do with... this could be their ticket! However, this is NOT a time-builder that you can fly over populated areas or use for any commercial or training operations. It is a HOBBY for the rotorcraft enthusiast. For time-building and financial reasons, you would be better off in a certificated helicopter. The Brantly B2B's are an excellent choice. The newer models have Kevlar clutch systems and many other upgrades. The maintenance is a bit more than the Robbie, but FAR less than a Rotorway. Also, you can pick up a used mid-time ship for around $60K or so. The are certificated, and you can use them for training, commercial operations, or just time-building (even over populated areas). http://www.brantly.info/ http://www.brantly.com/home.htm Not that it matters, but I've flown the Brantly (and Enstrom and Bell 47). You can find more information about the B2B's flight characteristics here... http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...brantly+review The point is, there are more options than KIT vs. R22. muffin, you should take the time to fly several different ships and do more research. I'm impressed with the Mini-500 just by looking at it, but I wouldn't fly one (that's another safety topic by itself). R2 |
Jellycopter
No need to get so defensive. No-one who hasn't flown one has said thay are a problem to fly! The only comments made about performance have been that they have limitations with weight. All the comments have been statements of fact such as the work involved, the accident and mechanical problem stats. Trouble is that owning a rotorway is far far more than flying it. To someone like me with limited mechanical skills and even more limited time the rest of your post is vindication of the reluctance to buy one. You may well be right about the flight characteristics but my choice after doing a couple of years research was based on everything BUT the flight handling because they were all more important at the time. |
RDR,
You write: "this looks like a fun HOBBY". I couldn't agree with you more. Although this is 'P'Prune, I believe the majority of posters are 'Hobby' fliers. (Heliport - I await correction!) No. The overwhelming majority of contributors to Rotorheads are professionals, followed by those working towards their professional licences. Heliport RobboRider, You write: "No need to get so defensive". Take a look at the title of my previous post - "In defence of Rotorways". Every other post was negative, I just thought I'd give a few positives. As a builder, owner, CAA test pilot and flying instructor on Rotorways I felt it was appropriate to put a 'qualified' side of the argument. Regarding your comments about weight and performance, have you ever tried flying a heavy R22 (or Brantly) within the prescribed limits. If you do, you'll see the R22's performance is also marginal at best. Incidentally, the Exec 162F can carry 2 14.5 stone adults and full fuel (2 hours) within its 1500lbs AUW - hardly weight limited I will re-iterate. The Rotorway is a Kit Built / Home Built / Hobby helicopter. I don't think anyone has ever implied that it is anything else. However, it's a very good one. I love mine and I enjoy flying and fixing it. It's the same as many middle-aged men do with classic British motorbikes. If you want to get from A to B, buy a Honda or Yamaha (R22/S300). If you enjoy riding something different, 'back to basics' and just for the fun of it, get an AJS, Norton, BSA or Triumph (Rotorway). Whatever you fly, enjoy it! J |
Remember that the initial question was how the 162 compares to the R22.
The R22 is a helicopter designed by a talented engineer, manufactured in a state-of-the-art facility, constantly and exhaustively analyzed for ways to make it lighter, stronger and less expensive. The 162 is a helicopter designed by a competent engineer, parts manufactured in a variety of facilities, assembled by whomever, and rarely analyzed except by the NTSB. In the hangar where we keep our 300CBi and R22, we are renting a space to a gent who owns a 162F. Over the course of the 18 months he's owned it, he's hovered it aproximately 10 hours, while he's gotten his PPL and CPL in our R22. He has replaced almost every part of the factory drivetrain with aftermarket parts in the Rotorway, as well as most of the cooling and ignition system. I daresay he has more hours working on the 162 than he has flying the R22. To me, this makes the R22 a better helicopter than the 162. However, in my personal opinion, the R22 is at the bottom of the totem-pole of certificated, factory-built helicopters when you consider all aspects of utility and safety. If you are looking for a "flying car" for an experienced pilot, then the R22 fills the bill very well, as it is relatively fast, inexpensive to run, and mechanically very reliable. If you are looking for a helicopter to learn from square one, I prefer the robust forgiveness of the Bell47, Schweizer 300CB/CBi or even the Enstrom 280/28. |
jellycopter,
I've seen several Rotorway Execs, sat in quite a few on the ground, and discussed them at length with owners, as they fascinate me. I'd just love to fly one! I don't mind living dangerously. :) Are you offering me a chance? I vaguely seem to remember that you bought one of the ones I'd seen, sat in, and discussed, though I'm not certain of this. But if I don't get a chance to fly one, I'll continue to happily pass on rumours, other people's opinions, thoughts and so on; hey, this is PPRuNe, not an encyclopaedia or flight manual! And, since I've seen and sat in several...nice looking, more so than the R22, fairly comfortable, but no storage space whatsoever. |
Rotorway vs. Robinson?
Whirly. The same two fellas had a close shave in that exec when the oil bath let go and soaked the belts whilst they were making a confined landing. As you have seen, what a beutiful job they made of the build.
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bugdevheli,
Jeeeeezzzzzzzzz.....I didn't know about that. And I was partly thinking most problems with the Rotorway were due to self-build problems. Hmmm............. |
The value you get buying a Rotorway is way better than any R22 I have looked at. If one can get over the "it's not a certified aircraft so it must be dangerous" mindset, then they certainly offer very cheap helicopter flying. I have looked at one recently which was bought by two guys to build hours for their commercial licences. Having put 350 or so (incident free would you believe) hours on it over a 3 year period, they have now achieved their objective and want to sell it.
If I can find anybody else within sensible distance of the East Midlands who would be interested in forming a syndicate based on it then I might just go ahead and buy it, as my annual usage on my own would not justify sole ownership. |
TO JELLYCOPTER
HEY JELLY ANY CHANCE OF A FLIGHT IN YOUR HELI ONE DAY THEN?:ok:
HOW MUCH IS IT FOR THIS R22 THEN? AND WHERES IT CURRENTLY BASED LAST QUESTION WAS FOR MUFFIN |
It's not an R22 - it is a Rotorway Exec. One of the first ones built in this country. Runs on Avgas or Mogas and works out at around £50 per hour running cost. As Jellycopter pointed out, you have to be prepared to do a lot more than just fly it. Because I also have a permit fixed wing a/c I am used to this, but it might not suit everybody.
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Rotorway flies 200miles to Kemble
A Rotorway exec flew 200 miles to the kemble airshow last Saturday. The pilot reporting a trouble free flight.! The UK agents for Rotorway however,commented on the ammount of phone calls following the somewhat adverse write ups on Prune. Regarding the airshow itself it would appear from the number of people complaining about the £25 admission fee that the Private Flying Association might have shot themselves in the foot.
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Did he receive a bravery award!!..must be some sort of record for the little exec huh? hes a braver man than i would be, good on him!
Mr S...I guess thats a good thing hey! you must have had a good trip, i ferried a 44 upto kings canyon from Newcastle a few years ago and it was a great trip but its a desolate landscape out there but beautiful all the same cheers |
From memory, a few years ago a Western Aussie coppper built his own rotorway and flew it to every police Station in West Aust.
He was fund raising for a local charity. A little further than 200 miles I might add. |
Helicopter down in Brisbane? - updated with pictures
Just heard on the radio something about a helicopter going down at the helipad on the Brisbane River. Anyone got any details yet?
We heard lots of fire trucks going past on the way down to the river then heard it on the radio but no other news yet. :( |
I've just been flying a Rotorway Exec 162F for an hour, and asking questions and looking at several in various stages of build for much longer, in order to write a flight test article for one of the GA mags. The verdict? Ignore almost everything I said in the past! What a fabulous little machine! I want one...only I don't have £39,000 and don't want to have to build it myself. :( Though I could be interested in a group if anyone in the North Wales/Shropshire area is of like mind.
Anyway, I'm not going to say any more; you'll have to read the article when it gets written. And I'm away until next weekend with no likely internet access, so I won't even be able to discuss this any further. But I just wanted to add myself to the pro-Rotorway votes. :ok: |
Fine. Well, I hope you enjoy your future machine and it's safe. The main issues are related to the secondary drive train, and the following company looks like they've finally licked the problem. You should look into this further:
http://www.epi-eng.com/RW-FailCauseSummry.htm http://www.epi-eng.com/RW-EPI-Solution.htm |
Skegness Fly-in
There was going to be an organised event at Skegness this weekend for Rotorways and other helis/planks in general. However, the recent wet weather has caused problems with the surface at the airfield so the event has been postponed tfn.
However, as it's quite a short-notice postponement, there are a few guy's who've planned their weekend around it and are going to turn up by heli to Skegness anyway. There should be about 6 Execs in attendance, weather permitting and a few other helis also; Gazelle and Allouette are 2 that I know of. So, if you fancy a natter or are just curious about these little kit helicopters, why not pop in to Skegness in your helicopter this Saturday (21 Aug) and maybe even go for a spin in one? Pub lunch planned just after midday. J |
i am off on sat didnt know the planks were cancelled though
see you there steve |
Jelly,
Have you got yours finished and flying now, if flying how did the Caa react . short of time or would ask more! PeterR-B Vfr |
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