The actual content was quite interesting, although the reporting style stinks. The mass of repeated introductions and garbage adverts made what could have been a good programme a real chore to sit through. Let's hope it comes on the BBC one day.

I haven't got Sky, so a video would be most welcome if anyone can manage it. Pleeeeeese!!!

I found the program really interesting from a mechanical point of view - e.g. are the springs in a sprag-clutch really that small :eek:

Not only did the program show the guy assembling the bits, it also had tours of the factory showing their CNC tooling etc. Quite reassuring to see the quality of the work being done, but still not sure I'd fly in one (especially if I built it).


Anyway, the program has a website if you're interested here .

A picture of the guy and his work from the website...
http://www.worldarcstudio.com/php/IM.../2---Image.jpg

Video for Whirley
 

Whirley,

I've recorded the first batch of episodes (1-4). I'll be at Heliflight next week at some point so i'll drop you an e-mail and let you know when, then you can pick it up at your leisure.

**************************************************

Right Then,

I watched the first four episodes of 'A Chopper is Born' last night and although I haven't had time to sit down and contemplate the content of what I saw I have the following comments to make on the helicopter.

Belts
It seems foolhardy to me for the manufacturer to allow an inexperienced builder to be cutting his or her own belts [primary drive & clutch!] It seems like a sure way to build a flaw into the primary drive system. (Oh, it’s only a nick, it'll be alright.) Furthermore, I think the statement: 'It's to ensure they are equal length' is an absolute nonsense, considering how they are made there is no reason why moulding them together would ensure they are equal lengths! IMHO the real reason is cost and transferring liability.

Triplex chain
Why they have used a triplex chain in the primary drive train is absolutely beyond me. If one pin breaks [as Mark stated] 'the whole thing drops to pieces'. Nice. Why not three simplex chains, engineering in some redundancy. Once again I would venture cost as the reason. Possibly weight also.

Casting in the Rotor control system
[The main rotor tension element was not cast]
I find the thought of cast swash-plate elements and main rotor control assembly somewhat disturbing also. Sand casting is a process that is inherently difficult to control and works to relatively poor tolerances. While the swash plates do not have to tolerate large loads, the loads they do experience are oscillatory, and hence fatigue is a serious concern for these components. So them why then are these components cast, a process subject to poor tolerances, large material quality variations, inclusions, porosity, and generally a poor crystalline structure unless additional heat treatment is carried out subsequently. Hence, it is my guess that also such components have had to be dramatically over-engineered in order to ensure safety - hence the comments from Mark on how heavy the system was and the known useful load limitations of the EXEC.

Cable attachment T-pieces
I am unconvinced that the T-pieces used to tie the two control cables to the lower swash-plate are particularly well designed. If one cable were to snap then I feel that the second cable would become slack as the other half of the tee was now unrestrained, this would then slacken all of the remaining cables as the swash plate rotates to equalise cable tension and there would be a great deal of play in the control system. Possibly so much that the machine becomes un-flyable?

* This is based on what I could see on the program, which was very limited. If anyone knows better then I stand to be corrected.

Cables for primary controls
The cabling installation was very neat on the EXEC thanks to the sleeves used to support cable tension. However, the cable arrived shrink-wrapped, and so we could assume they will never come out of those sleeves. How do you inspect them - how do you know that they are no fraying?


T-rotor pitch change System
From what was shown on the program the entire tail rotor centrifugal loads on are supported by a single circular shaft clip. This seems like madness to me! If that clip fails, the tail rotor departs!


Drilling of main frame & Boom
One of the first things that were shown on the program was Mark mis-drilling a hole in the main frame. But worst than that he gets it so hot the drill was glowing! By his own admission this seriously compromises any heat treatment carried out locally and left the local steel work very hard. More importantly - very brittle and highly susceptible to fatigue. The answer - I bit of uncontrolled DIY heat treatment! I threw my hands up in the air! [This of course may be controlled or a procedure provided - it didn't give that impression on the program though.]

Furthermore, some of the section that were drilled clearly gave little or no access to the inside of the tube/section for deblurring, this provides a mechanism for crack initiation/propagation. They are building in flaws. [Seemingly, based on the program again]


Weight
As has been mentioned before on PPRuNe, the Rotorway is rather under powered, this is for two reasons, firstly it is a rather poor rotor system (aerodynamically) so that 150HP is non being used very well. [Or should I say the rotor system is optimised for low production cost and ease of repair!]

Secondly because of the apparent choice of processes in the manufacture of the components, then large safety factors will have been applied to ensure safety and hence large weight penalties incurred. Note, did you see the size of the pedal castings and the cyclic and collective clevices!


Simple nuts and Self locking nuts
I also felt that assembling with plain nuts and then reassembling with self lockers offers the opportunity for the builder to use the wrong nuts in the assembly and hence have the thing shake to pieces in mid-air. Also I only saw one means of lock the mechanical fasteners. Hmmm



Plus's........


That’s all rather negative, what about the good side of the machine......

It looks rather nice - better than a R22 it has to be said.

Its dirt Cheap [for a helicopter]

It’s well equipped for the price - everything you need for VMC flight except radio & transponder.

Skids are bolted to the frame so if you bend them you can replace them and not the whole airframe!

Supposedly fly's nicer than a R22

Wire locking - Important nuts in the chain wheel were retained by wire-lock to protect against ingestion into the chain following a shear-failure. Good.

Cheap

Cheap

The general configuration of the machine seems quite neat also, and it has a very trendy instrument console layout.

CRAN
:rolleyes:

Next Episodes
 

Are on next week starting at 9pm - Home and Leisure (SKY)

23rd July

CRAN :)

Many many thanks Cran; I can pick it up at Heliflight if you let me know when.

muffin

It never ceases to amaze me of the attitude of the armchair critic. Maybe you should look at things in context.

This is a programme aimed at an audience the majority of which will only have a passing interest in aviation. The fact that this and the previous series shows that lots of us involved are not a bunch of handlebar wearing upper class twits can only be a good thing.

I'm sure if it was made purely for the aviation enthusiast / officionado then the rest of the world wouldn't watch and GA wouldn't be getting decent publicity.

CM

Great stuff CRAN, very interesting to read your thoughts. Thanks.

I looked at the guys website ..hmmm... seems a little confused about some military helicopter history, claims that M*A*S*H was about the Vietnam War :(
Im not sure what he means by the following:
I didnt pay much attention after reading this...

I wonder if the "Discovery Channel" use their own resources for research.
:confused:

The Rotorway Exec 162F
 

First of all I hope Im in the right forum, but I'm after some advice from somebody who has some experience on this kit built helicopter.

Situation

I have a frozen ATPL (A) doing some freelance corporate work and instructing. My boss at my proper job (The billpaying one) is totally fascinated by all things jetranger. Having watched the program "A chopper is born" on discovery - im now getting bombarded with questions about this particular machine and would it be suitable for a low time PPL (H) which neither he nor I have at this present time.

He does have a wodge burning a hole in his pocket, we have sterile facility's in which to build the thing and a very large meadow to the rear complete with friendly farmer.

I know previous versions of this helicopter had an alledged widow maker reputation. is this still the case? In terms of technology it seems very advanced compared to my cherokee.

Im just looking for a bit of professional advice on whether the blurb on the website is accurate and its the perfect 2seat sport helicopter (probably not) or a complete pig that you wouldn't be in the same hangar with. Any comments inbetween these two views would also be very helpful.

The intended use of the thing is a bit of pleasure flying combined with the odd x country and in time the odd short range business trip.

Im a rotor heads virgin so be gentle and sorry to intrude if this isn't relevant to this forum also Mr moderator please move this at will if need be

Welcome to Rotorheads! We won't hold the ATPL (A) against you too much :D

Let's start this off ...

A kit heli is only as good as:

The manufacturer who designed it. the people who made the parts, and the builder who assembled it.

I'm sure there are some great Exec's out there flying.

The downside is that most kits have fatigue issues that eventually crop up.

Maintainability of the heli for these types of issue are what will challenge you.

Would this heli be suitable for a low time PVT? That depends upon the pilot and the training to properly respond in an emergancy.

I believe you would be better off training on and purchasing the same type production heli.

G-SPOT, you say your boss is 'totally fascinated by all things jetranger'. There's a big difference between a home built baby helicopter and a B206. You also say that your boss has a wodge burning a hole in his pocket. Well, in the world of helicopters he's found the right place to lighten his load. Also on balance I think most would say that if his wodge is truly sizeable then go buy a jetranger and leave the kit in is box.

G-SPOT,

I would suggest you go into business with your boss....then buy all the "valued partner" insurance you can afford.....encourage him to buy, build, and fly the kit helicopter. Take no active part in the construction, maintenance, or instruction.....retain a very good financial planner and wait to receive the settlement from the insurance company after he becomes one with the kit and pasture. It would sure beat the stock market and casino for a good bet!

Steer him to a good helicopter school....and advise him to rent/lease/charter a more professionally designed, built , and maintained aircraft.....and forego the early fortune if he is somewhat a friend.

Clearblue

I hear what you are saying, I'm also fascinated by everything Boeing 747 400, it doesn't mean I can necessarily afford one.

The choice is down to two things

Either build the thing and then fly it - great satisfaction factor as long as the thing stays in one piece

or

Not bother at all - as going out and buying a high time R22 isn't really going to float his boat (nothing against R22's)

I'd love to say get your hand in your pocket and buy a 206 but there really isn't that kind of budget available. What info Im after is whether a fresh PPL would struggle flying the thing having say trained on a R22.

Are they nice to "Handle", I know what im trying to ask, comparing a Seneca to a Duchess for example.... just dont know how to "chopperise" the question :confused:

Anybody own one?

g-spot,
of all the available kit helicopters, I think the 162F is the most professional one. A lot depends on who put's it together. I personally wouln't fly it, but that's another story.
sp

G-SPOT,

There was a very long thread on the Rotorway Exec some time ago on here, with lots of detail. If you do a search you might be able to find it. There was someone on Rotorheads at that time who owned one, but I don't know if he's still around.

Anyway, I'll tell you what very little I know or have heard. I vaguely know two guys (twins) who've got one, and despite the fact they're both engineers, they said it took far longer to build than they expected, and they wouldn't do it again. They also said a lot of maintenance time was required, but I think that may apply to all helicopters, though I think the chap on Rotorheads said the same thing. I was STRONGLY advised against getting one on safety grounds by someone who was familiar with them in the US, where they seem to have a lot of accidents. As to how hard they are to fly, I don't think they have a governor, which isn't that big a deal, but certainly would take a bit of getting used to if you'd trained on an R22.

The TV programme did indeed make it look wonderful, and very easy to build and fly. The trouble is, no-one else seems to agree. Shame, as it's a very pretty helicopter, and almost affordable.

Cheers whirly Ill do that

In fact Ive found load's of stuff on it now thanks, should have done so in the first place!

i have flown quite a few rotorway's. i might tell you why one day.

if you are serious about getting a machine do youself a favour and don't go near a rotorway or any other kit built helicopter.

it is not woth the risk. :mad:

OK, so 99% of my time is on R22's and I openly admit to know very little about the technical side of helicopters, but what is it that is so bad about the 162? Even before I stuck my beak in here I heard nothing good about it..... why??

Enlighten me, O 4 stripey ones...:confused:

Hi guys,

in front of our hangar. a guy is "playing" around with some Rotorway - an old model - it was not even called a "Rotorway 90", yet.
In the meantime they have full FADEC and you also can get an altitude-compensating compressor on it.
It seems they are pretty good machines now, extremely stable (is there such a thing with helicopters...?), which for me translates into very boring (if you have a couple thousand hrs in a R-44 and then change into JetRanger, you know what I mean....).
Personally I do not like the belt drive to the T/R (I don´t know about the latest model, but some previous one had a 5 hr inspection cycle for the T/R belt tension - better bring all necessary gear for a longer trip!!)

Bottomline:

IF you are not into building and tinkering with the machine - speak flying is secondary - KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF ANY KIT - AIRPLANE OR HELICOPTER!!!

I had a guy ask my opinion on the same machine to get to fly "cheap" with a heli.........

Do the math:
How much is the kit, versus how much is a private licence AND how long can you rent say a R-22 for the rest? Will you really fly that much to bother with insurance (if you can find one...), a place to keep the machine, etc. - and you still have to built it yet, do you have a place for the building part of the game, any tools yet?

If it seems to expensive in your corner of the world to get a private licence, give me a call, plan on a terrific vacation in Central-America, get your licence and fly your heart out in fantastic scenery (miles of beach, rainforest, rivers, etc...)!!!! No, you are not dreaming- check it out:


www.helipan.com

send me an e-mail:

[email protected]

Again: if your heart is not with the mechanical challenge to built and maintain a helicopter, DON´T DO IT!!! IT IS NOT A CHEAP WAY TO GET TO FLY A HELICOPTER!!

If there are plenty of accidents, then it is most likely because of insufficient training and bad maintenance......

3top:)

2 bob
 

I remember quite a few years ago a commercial helicopter pilot actually building more than one of these things. He was an experienced and current pilot at that time maybe 9000 odd hours and flew a Lama daily on agrcultural work. I remember he was advised by the factory not to attempt to fly it on completion without training which he went and did. His comment was that without the training he probably would have tipped it on its side in the hover.

Another regrettable case more recently was a guy here locally had a Mini 500. He was a world champion RC helicopter guy. The Mini 500 for him was a natural progression I suppose. The aircraft was pristine and the attention to detail unbelievable. This is Switzerland and the guy was an engineer. I spoke to him and asked him if he was aware of certain problems that had been experienced around the world. He was aware of a few. He flew the aircraft very conservatively as I had seen him flying many times. About a month after this conversation the thing threw a blade! Needless to say the result.

The local homebuilt scene here is a bit down at the moment. A BD5-J had an engine major about 3 weeks ago and the pilot did not survive.

Have fun learning to fly Helis, lots of good people out there will teach you, but also a few ROGUES, so beware, then SFH once your in the scene you will find a lot of folk who will SFH up to B206 for you to fly, stick with the JetR it is so nice and us privateers can still afford to fly them, but kit builts have a sad reputation for doing silly things like breaking up when not on the ground, and it is no good giving rise to the numbers of the CAA Stats.

Have fun learn Rotory Flying, remember Heli pilots get it up faster!!:D :D

I agree with most of the above, especially the little calculation (of 3top) that compares the bottom line cost of the kit + the time to build it + hangar + insurance + financing + etc. We are talking something closer to 100 grand (all numbers US$).
A FAA CPL - with IFR and all - costs ca 30 or 35 grand. Then you have plenty left to buy some Jet time ** or whatever else you want to explore. Even travel and accomodation cost will be covered for a long time. Another point is the fact that Kit helicopters are in experimental category. Experimental time is not considered flight time by theCAA/JAA. Correct me if I am wrong on that, but I heared that from an UK FI who should know.

**I know a place in Atlanta where you can fly a MD 500 for $300/hr - the type rating with 10 hrs of flight time is $ 3500.

another 2 cents:

a. I don´t know about the time you can log - in FAA law I believe it is possible - a helicopter is a helicopter, and if it is registered you should be able to log the time.

b. If you are in the market for an EXEC, don´t bother with the Commercial Licence (except you want the additional training and education....), as you will not be able to use it commercially - or do you have your own plantation - you might be able to use it for fumigation.........
A private licence in the US or in my corner of the world is about 10-11 grand in a R-22.
(So just for the purchase of an EXEC, you do the licence and spend some 55000,- more to fly around for fun. Anyone will give you a price if you pay 20-50 hrs up front. In our company that would probably be 195,-/hr for a R-22, that makes about 290 hrs in a R-22. I doubt you will fly all away in one vacation.........)

c. If you where in the market for a EXEC in the first place, you where already content with a piston, so why waste the money on a turbine if you can fly twice as long with a piston for the same money - and regarding Robinsons, their governor works faster than any turbine.

d. If you get a MD-500 for 300,-US/hr, ask yourself where they safe the money. Most likely it is not a MD but an old Hughes, and then the above question is even more important. Why would someone "give" turbine time away? Samaritian? In the Helicopter business? I don´t think so!! So where are they cutting corners?

MD-500 (...and old Hughes 500 more so) cost a lot of money to maintain properly. I doubt they can cover ops, insurance, fuel, etc. AND make a buck for 300,- an hour!!

Be very careful when you spend less than 500,-US$ per hour for any turbine!!

3top:) :D :)

Turbine Rotorway
 

The latest trend in the Rotorway helicopters is the turbine conversion, They are putting 150HP T62-32's in them.

Here is some info: http://www.kissaviation.com/

And the major Rotorway builder's site is: http://groups.msn.com/rotorwayfun/_h...pgmarket=en-us


Hans Conser

...a little bit off topic, but....

- just to clarify the last part of my last post (because there was some question as to the quality/condition of that MD 500 program:

I have personally flown that aircraft. It has a brand new Garmin 430 + intercom + interior. Maintenance seemd to be exellent. And yes - it is an A model. It's still a heck of a deal! Who needs it to go fast? It's for timebuilding! :cool:
sp

To Sierra-Papa:

I sent you an e-mail to the Md-500 - comments apon your reply.

However, where I am, we have the same question with tunahelicopters:

The R-44 is taking over the market, however there are still Hughes-500 flying for the same price. It is pretty much impossible to make money AND maintain the ships legal for the price, where you still make decent money with a R-44.

Parts for Hughes 500´s are getting expensive.


As I thought it is not a MD-500 but a first gen Hughes, ever checked the aircraft logs? Shiny aircraft and nice avionics don´t mean the parts are in time and inspected acc. to manual.

However, there may the one guy every 1000 years, who does not care about money, but just, to give people a chance to go fly.

I met once a guy like that, but it was run down Cessna 152´s to "get people in the air!" The owner of the place was a retired TWA chief pilot. He did not have to make a living out of it!

On the remote chance he reads this:
Thanks to the man, as this got me into aviation!!!:D


3top
;)

I also saw the series on Mark Evans building the heli and thought "hmm - this all looks a bit too easy", particularly when he appeared to balance the blades in about 15 minutes.

However, the guy who did the test flight didn't seem to be too concerned about chucking it around the sky and seemed to have quit a lot of experience flying them (it must be bad enough flying something you've put together yourself, but flying something some other nerd has created takes pure insanity).

Anyway, shame we can't get the guy who did the test flight to speak up on here and state his connections with the company and then tell us why he doesn't feel unconfortable flying them.

Surely they can't ALL crash

next 2 cents:

a. To the 300,-$ "MD"-500, it seems we have the second Samaritian in the last 1000 years on hand. The way it was explained to me, he does not make any money with this machine (and another he has), and it is only used for turbine transitions and sling load checkouts. He also has an EC120 and two R-44. The prices on these later models is definitely not in the same range, as these are used to generate a winspan.
So.........go for it, but check them carefully anyway!

b. To ravenx:

It is perfectly possible to balance the blades in 15 min with a good electronic balancer and not too much problems on the setup. Although I still have to get a helicopter where I could balance it in less than an hour.............must be me.
Track is another sucker - happend to me: done in three flights, but also thinking of using vodoo after 2 days not getting them to track satisfactory!! I think this is witchcraft anyway!!

The EXEC seems to be a fine helicopter and it is made so, that an average person can assemble it. Actually it is (in my view...) easier than restoring an old car or motorcyle - all new parts, packed in groups, excellent manual. If you know how to use common tools, know how to read [a manual...], just use your brains [common sense...]


What I DO NOT APPROVE OF at all is their policy to train pilots in steps: Get them to hover and send them home [to practise....!!!], train them on autos and [send them home...],.....and so on.

Helicopter training is not cheap, okay, but so isn´t a EXEC-kit.

Anyone building a EXEC, PPLLEEAASSEEE!!!, get ALL your training in one run, take vacationand stay at the factory, use their helos, or do it in a R-22 in your local flightschool (you manage a R-22 you manage anything- no joke!!), whatever, but get your licence BEFORE you start to fly your creation. Most accidents happen when something gets out of hand (hoverpractise - get into translational lift and you´re up - and what then?)

If you have the money for 70.000,- kit you should be able to come up with the 10 grand for a private helicopter ticket.

AGAIN: ANY helicopter-kit is NOT A CHEAP WAY TO GO FLY HELICOPTERS - see previous posts on this thread!!
DON´T DO IT IF YOU ARE NOT INTO THE BUILDING AND MAINTENANCE OF THE SHIP!!!

I am a CFI and do all kinds of work with a helo (about 6000 hrs now, about 400 as instructor, I have a student as this time....), I also help with the maintenance of helicopters - no A&P, but I work the manuals and tools, sometime I will have the time to get this ticket too. I know what is involved to built up or totally overhaul a small helicopter - Bell47 and R-44/22 - it is an awefull lot of work, but relative simple if you do it with a plan - see above.

BUT for the last time: If your hobby is flying and not building and maintaining - GO AND RENT!!

:) 3top

I had a passenger today who owns a EXEC - Elite (only three ever built), thats the one before the 162F, but it is way faster, he pushed it to 130 mph, with a new FADEC engine and new blades 0 hr both.

Lots of upgrades, 100.000,- negotiable, somewhere in the states, if you move fast I get hold of him, for you!

3top

Rotorway Exec crash
 

I have never really paid much attention to the Exec, but I thought it was only a single-seater?

Or did they bring out a two-seater?:confused:

Ascend Charlie - All Rotorways are two seat, side by side machines. From what I remember they have never made a single seat machine, only ones like that were the Mini 500 and that killed a lot of people.

Autorotate.

Visit RotorWay's web site here.

Like Autorotate stated, all of theirs have been 2-place.

There was a thread on this recently. Anybody remember what it was called?

Rotorway On Ebay Uk
 

ROTORWAY FOR SALE ON EBAY 4161045631,ARE YOU BRAVE ENOUGH.

http://i21.ebayimg.com/03/i/01/a1/2b/ca_2.JPG

Hey I've flown one - it isn't bad at all (if it's made properly - and it was the factory one!)

Phil

I SEE THE BIDING HAS FINISHED AT £30100.HOW DOES THIS PRICE SOUND FOR A ROTORWAY.IS THE BUYER A PRUNER.

Whatever he is, he is very brave, and if a member of the pprune squad I hope he is very careful:eek:

Fair value for the machine would be 35-37K in flying condition. The reason that I specify 'in flying condition' is because at the time of sale this machine was not in flying condition and is still awaiting accident damage repair. I confess to having been interested enough to consult the engineers who were listed in the advert as having 'completed' these repairs. I guess that makes the final price a small discount to the market providing the seller pays for the repairs. Good luck and safe flying to whoever bought it. Maybe one day :{

Why brave, incidently?

Excuse my ignorance...