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-   -   Africa Ride (video) Any opinions? (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/163642-africa-ride-video-any-opinions.html)

karroo 16th Feb 2005 14:38

Africa Ride
 
Hi!!!

Just found this movie while surfing in the web... I am a low time as350 driver and this video left my hands sweat...
Comments please


http://www.biff.nl/images/filmpjes/H...d%20Afrika.wmv

Regards

Artur


PS: I don´t know if this movie was posted before, if so disregard the topic.

HeliMark 16th Feb 2005 19:11

Nothing very difficult in the way of flying.

But with paying passengers? I think not. There seems to have been several crashes of tour helicopters in the last several years that may have been caused by some flying like that.

Heliport 16th Feb 2005 20:44

Thanks for posting karroo.
Good video. :ok:

Anyone on a dial-up connection might want to save to the hard drive first.

Heliport

unhappyhamster 24th Jan 2006 23:19

certainly pushing the boundaries of ' when not if ! '

MD900 Explorer 25th Jan 2006 02:03

AS350 Video
 
Negative G pushovers and gung ho flying like that were great and fun, for the pilot and pax at the time...suprised not to see any hammerheads in there.... If the pilot was wanting an early grave, then flying like that would give it to him/her. :uhoh:

I saw a million forced landing sights there, just none of them any good....:ouch:

If there was Pax on board.... would they want to come back again .... I guess they would.. They take away a thrill and nothing less. The pilot has to live with the day that the donkey quits, and he killed 5 pax :{

I guess it is all a £$£$£$ game. Who lives longest to tell of most enjoyment and profit.... verus i chopper crash.... costing $$$ and lives..... Does it all mount up to a viable venture? :eek:


MD :sad:

mtnmotion 25th Jan 2006 02:24

Well what can one say?

Same old circus,
different CLOWNS.....:(

407 Driver 25th Jan 2006 05:08

two words .... servo transparency.....

There was a couple of times that he may have been in a world of hurt if those servos locked up !

fishboy 25th Jan 2006 10:36

Servos & things
 
I have had servos lock in a 350, pretty scary:eek: . happened to me with an external load (faulty servo) would not be nice at all to have one lock up during some of that flight. Not to mention all of the other possible emergencies:uhoh: He's probably glad he can't be easily identified. But no amount of preaching will ever stop people flying this way. It's exciting!.... I personally don't fly like that with pax on board... but on my own.... who knows what goes on.
There will always be helicopter accidents, and tour pilots I'm sure get bored as hell doing the same route, day in, day out. It's really hard to force yourself into remembering that for the people in the back, it's exciting enough without all that rock'n'roll.:cool:
Enjoy it....but please live to tell the tale:)

R22DRIVER 25th Jan 2006 12:44

I shat myself just watching that!!!

Is that guy just plain stupid or what??!!!! No wonder [pilots] like that give the press a field day when the donkey stops!!!

:mad:





The PPRuNe software deletes bad language for a reason - we don't want it.
Please don't get round it by adding *** to words.
Heliport

Heliport 25th Jan 2006 13:31

Good question. :ok:

Hope we get some good answers - with reasons.

H.

407 Driver 25th Jan 2006 15:10

Some of us are guilty of doing similar flights at some points in our careers. We lived through it, and that silly stage passed. We became better, smoother, more professional, more mature, OLDER pilots. A few didn't.
This guy s is probably not a bad pilot, but he did do something that some of us have learned not to do.

In my opinon, he did put the aircraft in a position that if the "known issue" of servo transparency developed, if only for an instant, he may have been in danger. That type of aircraft has been know to do that, so fly the type accordingly. Fly smoothly, and always leave yourself that exit. Flying agressively toward rocks could put you in a bad situation...IF something does happen.

IntheTin 25th Jan 2006 15:22


Must say that if I was on holiday and went for a tour in a helicopter like that one, It would probably be one thing I wouldn't forget. Looked and sounded like the pax had a great flight though. We try strange things on holidays.
They don't understand the in's & out's of flying so don't really care for the difficult situations that the pilot may get himself & said pax into, if like 407 driver & fishboy pointed out about failing servo's or the donk failing.
Great vid all the same. Looked a lot of fun, bit hair raising, but fun!;)

mikelimapapa 25th Jan 2006 15:39

You never know, it could have been the pax that asked for a thrill ride and the pilot was just giving them their moneys worth.......they did seem to be throughoutly enjoying it!

doubleu-anker 25th Jan 2006 16:29

That video clip shows a classic and deadly case of overconfidence and low experience.

He has not only put himself in harm's way but even more disturbing, the lives of those poor passengers. It may look impressive but it just isn’t worth it.

I was down in that part of the world more than 20 years ago, engaging in similar operations, for a job. A huge investigation had been completed a few years previously into the amount of GA accidents that was prevailing. I read the findings and recommendations with interest. From what I experienced down there, "beat ups" were a way of life and commonplace. This cowboy approach to aviation IMHO could have been the cause of more accidents than some reports seemed to suggest.

Aggression and violent manauvers have no place in civil avaition. Best channelled into the military or the rugby field.

[email protected] 25th Jan 2006 20:03

Some interesting flying with few options if the donk stops.

What is 'servo transparency'? I have searched the forums and the only place the phrase comes up is on this thread. Are you talking about the servos being unable to cope with the aerodynamic backloads at high speed/g (the Gazelle's jackstall) or something else?

Heliport 25th Jan 2006 20:37

'Servo Transparency' is another name for Jack Stall. Servo Reversibility is another one.

As well as the Gazelle, it can happen in the AS350B, AS355E, and EC120B.

(Some say it can happen in any helicopter with hydraulics.)



H.

407 Driver 25th Jan 2006 21:12

"servo transparency" is the exact terminology that Aerospatiale used in the 350B manual years ago when I flew that type. Not sure if they still use that term, I haven't read a Eurocopter 350 manual in years.

and Yes, it could happen to any aircraft with hydraulics.

zhishengji751 26th Jan 2006 02:31


Originally Posted by [email protected]
Some interesting flying with few options if the donk stops.
What is 'servo transparency'? I have searched the forums and the only place the phrase comes up is on this thread. Are you talking about the servos being unable to cope with the aerodynamic backloads at high speed/g (the Gazelle's jackstall) or something else?

Crab.. here is the earlier thread..
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154199

I had to use 'Advanced Search' and change the 'Find Posts from' date.

cheers,
Greg

[email protected] 26th Jan 2006 05:41

Thanks for the info chaps, I clearly wasn't using the search facility properly.

Having now read the thread it seems that the AS350 might suffer from 2 problems a. jackstall like the gazelle because the hydraulic servos are not man enough for the job. and b. another hydraulic problem that leaves the controls feeling 'locked' and can occur at high DA without neccesarily harsh handling being required.

I taught/demoed jackstall at CFS and Middle Wallop and it doesn't feel like the controls 'lock' - it feels like retreating blade stall since the highest aerodynamic back loads are on the retreating side and that is where the jack stalls. If the controls 'locked' you wouldn't be able to take the corrective action of reducing the severity of the manoeuvre to recover.

Answer - don't fly French helicopters.

Stan Switek 26th Jan 2006 06:13

No way in hell I'd fly like that with passengers on board or even solo. I agree that type of flying is best left for combat.

unhappyhamster 26th Jan 2006 07:49

Crab - are you being serious ?:confused:

archos 26th Jan 2006 07:57

There comes the time in a Pilots life, when flying sound and safe - with or without passengers - will just do nicely. Let the stunts be done by those who get paid for doing them.

SARREMF 26th Jan 2006 16:50

Sadly Crab was being serious - I too remember the Jack stall sortie. Interestingly, having flown the Squirrel, I cannot remember anyone mentioning SERVO TRANSPARENCY before! Come to that I can't find it in the aircrew manual either - oops suspect I should have handed that one in when I left!

SARREMF 26th Jan 2006 17:02

Sorry, forgot to mention the video! Well, one word springs to mind - barking! Having taught mountain flying - lets face it, you can use the techniques on features like these - the guy clearly has 'issues' with his life expectancy.

Any body ever seen the video 'the failed aviator'? Its an american training video where the pilot/Dr talks about what pilots do as they get further in to their careers, the risks that they feel they can take, and the balance between experience and risk taking. Cracking video, when I watched it - it also covers the mid-life crisis saying about the 40 plus pilot with the red sports car [3 of us watching all had red sports cars] - I recognised in myself how stale I had become, I was in the zone where it would have been very easy to start increasing risks to pep up boring sorties. Fortunately, a change IS as good as a rest and I worked through it - stops you short though, when you realise it could so easily be you in this type of video doing antics like this all because you needed a bigger and bigger thrill!

That was then - a long time ago! Now, the thrill is a new delivery of paper clips! 1,2,3,4,5,6,...........

bigmanatc 26th Jan 2006 22:57

I`m not a chopper driver....but I don`t see any real risky flying in this video.....seems fairly ..."tame " to me......maybe thats cause I`m from Africa and I`ve been in Vultures Retreat......as a pax......mind blowing.....

imabell 27th Jan 2006 03:30

i follow a better route than that just getting to work each day:=

Ned-Air2Air 27th Jan 2006 03:38

Interesting reading all these comments about that video.

Will let you in on a little secret, I have actually been on that flight, and shot it from inside that helo, and from outside from another helo.

The flight was not a one off for some tourists, but a regular thing for visitors to where the helo is based.

Yes the pilot is very very experienced and I know him well and would fly with him again in a heartbeat.

Not being a licenced pilot I will not, and would not comment on the right or wrong of his flying, can only vouch for what I know of the individual.

There are a few people here on the forum who know exactly who he is and know him very well.

Cheers

Ned

Barndweller 27th Jan 2006 09:59

It all boils down to risk management.
All flying is risk management as is just about everything in life. As soon as the blades start turning, there is a risk factor. That factor increases and decreases dependant on the circumstances. It's up to the Pilot to decide whether the risk is appropriate to the task. It's also up to the pilot to make that decision on behalf of his passengers taking into account their best interests rather than their wishes.
As a professional pilot (350 rated) it is my opinion that there were several instances in this video where an engine failure or other serious malfunction including jack-stall would have resulted in the destruction of the aircraft and serious or fatal injury of those on board. We all know that Turbomecca, whilst reliable, are not perfect.
Now... What constitutes the passengers best interests under these circumstances?
We've all done things like that when we're crew only on board, however we have a duty to our passengers to know what is good for them even if they don't and to make a responsible decision with regard to the risks that we expose them to.
It's only a matter of time before someone finds a video like that in smouldering wreckage of such a flight.
BD

strop 27th Jan 2006 11:06

WHAT IF, WHAT IF, WHAT IF. Bloody hell !! What if a tile fell off the space shuttle and hit you in the head ? should you stop walking out my front door each morning? For @#$& sake you may as well get a thrill out of live when you can! Not all of us want to be a boring stick in the mud prats. So what if they bite it, at least they go out having a blast. Life goes on, no one lives forever you know:E

Bitmonx 27th Jan 2006 11:34

Strop......maybe not all of the pax wanted to have a roller coaster ride? Let's get it straight, it was a scenic flight (I assume). I believe your comment was a rather selfish one. We pilots must give all our customers the feeling that they are safe. I would like to know the comments of the pax of this particular flight if they would have given a full postflight briefing on what could have happened...
If a pilot wants to hot dog around he should charter the bird for himself and do whatever he wants over open ground. Then its all about having fun and not showing off!! :ok:

SHortshaft 31st Jan 2006 01:55

A few points I would like to make about some of the comments on the ride:

1. The scenic flight business is very much dependent on ‘word of mouth’ advertising. We have seen it here on pprune where one rotorhead asks others who to fly with in Las Vegas or Hawaii.

2. I would think by the way most passengers had their cameras out that they had some idea of what they were in for; and probably that is why they were there.

3. ‘Non-scheduled public transport’, as we call ‘scenic flights’ in my part of the world, is regarded by insurers as inherently dangerous. It is excluded from most standard ‘travel insurance’ policies.

4. It can be argued that nothing in the video was dangerous unless there was an in-flight emergency. The same can be said for all forms of airline, sea, rail or road travel. Does the helicopter industry need another bout of self-flagellation?

5. If there is concern that a forced landing following a malfunction may lead to ‘issues’ then lets consider what issues need to be addressed if that forced landing was perfectly successful. It seems to me that they are flying over a pretty remote area where ‘rescue’ might be slow in coming. In which case should we be worried about the capability of the passengers to endure the survival phase before the rescue – I think not.

Ned-Air2Air 31st Jan 2006 02:14

Shortshaft - Good points, and just for your info, the driving time from the main lodge of where that helo operates from, to anywhere on the property is about 30 mins and its all pretty accessible.

In addition the peelot in question follows the same route every time so those at the lodge know where he is going and he checks in by radio etc.

And yes the guests who go on this flight know pretty much what to expect as its explained to them at the lodge before they even get onto the helicopter.

Just thought you would like to know

karroo 31st Jan 2006 09:00

Hi again!!

After one year, this is the first time a see this thread after I started.
1st of all I have to thanks all replys, threads like this just makes us better pilots. After reading this and other threads (fortunatly I read the one about jack stall before post this one) I realise one more time that generaly the problem it is not if you are doing well or wrong, question is if you know what are you doing. That ´s why we are always learning.
2nd Keep them coming.

Thanks again

Mr.Challenger 31st Jan 2006 17:49

Another Video
 
Hi Folks,

Cx this one out...

http://www.eblogx.de/index.php?actio...s/tiefflug.wmv

Have Fun

hotzenplotz 31st Jan 2006 18:25

The Pilot in the Africa video is taking his hands off the controls in several cases.

He seems to be too self-confident for my taste.

scottishbeefer 31st Jan 2006 18:29

Strop - Congratulations! You have just become my COTM. It may well take someone of your intellect a while to work this abbreviation out.

Shortshaft - Sorry, you only came second. "Nothing Dangerous" (?!) You should take that act on tour, there may be some other like-minded individuals who would enjoy hearing more of your pearls.

Folks, I'm truly sorry that aviation has a pair of cowboys like you remotely associated with it.

SASless 31st Jan 2006 18:51

Well boys....paint me Blue and hang a sign around my neck! I for one fail to see just what the feller did wrong. You climb onto a Ferris Wheel or Roller Coaster you expect it to be a thrill ride....exactly the same in this deal. For one....I "LOVE" whizzing about (or in some cases...merely clattering about) the treetops or below. I use my wits (what few that haven't been beaten out of me yet by Bell products) and never fly the route until I have done a recon (recce for you of the Tea Drinkers) and always prepare myself for flight by considering "what if's". I am also prepared to give it up at any time for any reason if things are not just right. All a paying passenger has to say...is "Whoa...Uncle!" and thrill ride ends.

The reason we do what we do is for the sheer enjoyment of it.....as the pay and benefits sure fail to measure up. I see this guy having a good time and doing it very professionally. The one thing I fault him for....is doing it in an A-Splat and not something really fast and agile like a MadDog. (Now that is a fun machine for such shenannigans!)

Anytime you fly a single engine machine...you take a risk of having a forced landing due to an engine failure...public transport flying and thrill ride giving are two different endeavours. I have done both ....and use completely different techniques for each.

As Ned has described....they do it in a professional manner....that is good enough for me.

The Puma video is good...and must have been good fun making. When the Statue of Limitations runs out...I might provide some done while flying a Huey a few years ago. Part of the sequence was on the Discovery Channel.

IntheTin 31st Jan 2006 19:23

Loved the Puma vid. Great stuff. I'm sure to get grief for saying it, but thats what I imagined fun to be! :E

Great soundtrack too.

scottishbeefer 31st Jan 2006 19:36

SAS my dear chap - you just edged SHortshaft out. I had presumed your vast number of posts somehow indicated you were a wise man of rotary aviation.

To be polite, this is not the case.

How sad that there may be unsuspecting PPruners out there who consider that your words have weight.

Watch those spurs don't catch the yaw pedals pardner.

remote hook 31st Jan 2006 19:44

Apart from taking his hands off, and a couple of the line choices, I really don't see the issue.

If you chase animals around for capture, do film work, or many other jobs, you fly in those environments all the time. Know you're enivronment, know your limits and those of the machine you're flying.

RH


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