What would make the PERFECT Flying Jacket?
 

Dependant on the type of Operation (HEMS/POLICE/SAR/CIVILIAN) What would make the perfect flying jacket?

ARM POCKET - What is the best you have used or seen? - What should a good pocket include? (e.g Space for pens and a Torch?) - Any need for a zip pocket for Epaulettes etc?
ID BADGE - Is it a requirement to have an ID badge on the left chest? - If so Velcro attached or permanent fixing?
EPAULETTES - Do you need epaulette flaps?
CUFFS - Do you find that some jackets catch on controls etc? - Would it be an idea to have adjustable cuffs so they don't catch?
UNDERARM ZIPS - When you get hot in cockpit, would underarm vent zips be useful?
POCKETS - What type of pockets are required, and for what items?(e.g What type of radios do you use and could they be stored on the jacket?)
FABRIC - Colour? - Do you need them to be high viz with scotchlite tape on? - Do they need to be Fire resistant?
AREAS OF WEAR - What areas wear quickest and why? (e.g Do your elbows wear when you are treating a patient?)
COLLAR - What type of collar and why?(e.g Collar with hood? Collar that doesn't get in the way of the helmet?)
WAISTBAND - Drawstring pulleys like Ski jackets or elastic like MA2 jackets?
STORAGE - How can they be stored in cockpit to keep them out og the way?(e.g Would a drawstring bag be useful to attach somewhere?
LINER - Do they need to be waterproof? Would a zip in/out fleece be useful?
LOGOS - What type of logos are required and could be used as standard?
ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - If a clear plastic arm pocket could be put onto the jackets, would this come in handy for frequencies, patient details etc or not?
CUT - DO you find jackets at the moment to be cumbersome or uncomfortable to wear in the cockpit? - Would a jacket that is more flexible be better? - What types of area get in they way?


I can disclose that Scrawny is a major manufacturer of top quality flying jackets.
We agreed that he wouldn't mention the name of his company in his research/questionnaire so as to avoid breaching PPRuNe's 'No advertising in posts' rule.

This is a unique opportunity for pilots to have some input into the design and features they'd like to see in the 'perfect' jacket.
Most of us have worn jackets which we've liked, but would have liked even more 'if only it had' ....... whatever.
Well, now's our chance.

We may even persuade Scrawny to call the new model 'The Rotorheads' in return for our help. ;)

Heliport

You looking to make it?

Well, in that case, the most important issue for me is to have a jacket that fits my womanly curves with arm and body length appropriate for a person of shorter stature :O

Cheers

Whirlygig

Had mine made with extra long sleeves so it still reaches my wrists when I ride a motorcycle:


Dependant on the type of Operation (HEMS/POLICE/SAR/CIVILIAN) What would make the perfect flying jacket?

ARM POCKET - What is the best you have used or seen? - What should a good pocket include? (e.g Space for pens and a Torch?) - Any need for a zip pocket for Epaulettes etc? THINK ANY POCKET WOULD DO FOR EPAULETTES. WOULD LIKE SOMETHING TO KEEP CELL PHONE SECURE.

ID BADGE - Is it a requirement to have an ID badge on the left chest? - If so Velcro attached or permanent fixing? VELCRO, OTHERWISE YOU LOOK LIKE A DORK OFF BASE.

EPAULETTES - Do you need epaulette flaps? YES BUT IF THEY ARE MADE SO THEY DON'T CATCH ON HEADSET CORDS.

CUFFS - Do you find that some jackets catch on controls etc? - HAVE ELASTIC CUFFS ON USN JACKET - WORKS WELL.

UNDERARM ZIPS - When you get hot in cockpit, would underarm vent zips be useful? YEP, AND INTEGRAL AIR CON PLEASE. OR ZIP OFF SLEEVES ?

POCKETS - What type of pockets are required, and for what items?(e.g What type of radios do you use and could they be stored on the jacket?) SOMETHING FOR LEATHERMAN AS NO BELT IF WEARING FLIGHT SUIT UNDERNEATH

FABRIC - Colour? - Do you need them to be high viz with scotchlite tape on? - Do they need to be Fire resistant? I SUSPECT YOU'D NEED A RANGE TO MEET ALL TASTES.

AREAS OF WEAR - What areas wear quickest and why? (e.g Do your elbows wear when you are treating a patient?) NO COMMENT.

COLLAR - What type of collar and why?(e.g Collar with hood? Collar that doesn't get in the way of the helmet?) DON'T THINK NEED HOOD BUT IF SO, ZIPPED INSIDE COLLAR ?

WAISTBAND - Drawstring pulleys like Ski jackets or elastic like MA2 jackets? SAFETY ISSUE ON DRAWSTRINGS ? SNAGGING ?

STORAGE - How can they be stored in cockpit to keep them out og the way?(e.g Would a drawstring bag be useful to attach somewhere? DON'T KNOW. JUST DURABLE ENOUGH TO BE CHUCKED IN BOOT.

LINER - Do they need to be waterproof? IF IT'S BREATHABLE. Would a zip in/out fleece be useful? MINE IS LIKE THAT BUT NEVER USE FLEECE LINING - MAYBE IN A COLDER CLIMATE ?

LOGOS - What type of logos are required and could be used as standard? COMPANY SPECIFIC I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT

ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - If a clear plastic arm pocket could be put onto the jackets, would this come in handy for frequencies, patient details etc or not? YES, VERY FOR SINGLE PILOT OPS. SAVES WRITING ON THE BACK OF YOUR HAND.

CUT - DO you find jackets at the moment to be cumbersome or uncomfortable to wear in the cockpit? YES - Would a jacket that is more flexible be better?YES - What types of area get in they way? BUNCH UP AT WAIST. DIFFICULT TO OPEN UP FRONT PAST HARNESSES WHEN GET TOO WARM. RIDE UP AND EXPOSE BACK AND ARMS WHEN DOING PREFLIGHT. SLEEVES SNAG WHILE PUTTING HANDS INSIDE COWLINGS ETC.

WHERE DO I ORDER MY 'WONDERJACKET' ? OH YES, AND A FOIL SURVIVAL BAG SEWN INTO THE LINING, AND SOMETHING TO HOLD A WATER BOTTLE, AND X-RAY PROOF SO I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE ALL MY **** OUT OF POCKETS AT IMMIGRATION, AND AUTOMATIC DEODORANT FOR THOSE LONG HOT DAYS, AND...

IMHO - Take an RAF Cold Weather Jacket and make it in a variety of colours, then perhaps add your clever sleeve frequency pocket thingy.

I'll have one.

Absolutely with JAFO, even better if you could make it in leather (but that's just snob value). The only thing I'd add would be an ICOM radio pocket, maybe positioned like a gun pocket, for those occasions when I need to use one in lieu of the aircraft radio (or to shove a handheld GPS in otherwise).

http://www.silvermans.co.uk/SILVER/PRODUCTS/1/01024.JPG
(Actually they do look a little smarter than that, just the only picture I could find)

G

The questions are aimed at finding out what problems professional pilots had in their everyday jobs.

I'm interested in operational issues, and as to the sorts of problems there are when using jackets in the cockpits or out on recue jobs. I can't believe that any of the companies mentioned have covered all pilots/crews issues??

How about Claudia Schiffer ?

Genghis
You ain't seen the way I used to wear mine. Wish I'd kept it. I'd also have one in leather if anyone felt like making one.

Got to agree with Genghis. The good ole RAF aircrew Mk3 Jacket, Cold Weather actually does the job (new colour looks a tad naff though!). I have used the USAF MA 1 stuff and although it makes you feel and look the DsBs, it falls short on practicallity.

Genghis, typical slapdash and shoddy crabism!!

Here is a pic of the Mk3 Jacket. Awaiting the obvious Army sewn in creases and starched collar!!
Mk3

http://www.mart-aviation.co.uk/RAF%2...%20%281%29.jpg

So there you go, we all want RAF Mk.3 cold weather jackets, made to look a bit smarter, with a see-through frequency pocket on the sleeve and a gun pocket for your Icom.

Job done :ok:

Now what colour do we want?

G

Genghis,
Why are they more practical than other jackets? If it's the design, what is it about the design?
What is an ICOM radio and what sort of size is this?
Place where gun pocket should be? Where would that be?
Are the buttons on the front of the jacket not a pain to keep doing up?
Does the collar not get in the way of helmets?
Do they keep you warm enough?

(1) Very comfortable, virtually indistructible, very little restriction of movement, pockets in the right places and a buttoned baffle across the front for drafty cockpits. The side pockets zip reducing FOD risk. There is a concealed waterproof hood. They are also very warm whilst being quite thin - they are happy with a LSJ over the top (whilst my other flying jacket, a USAF B-3 copy is very uncomfortable with anything over the top and much more restrictive in a cramped cockpit - although much nicer in a totally open cockpit). Oh yes, it takes badges well too.

(2) http://www.airstoreone.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=ic3e; 57*153*35 mm (plus knobs and a rubber duck antenna stuck out of the top), 465 grammes.

(3) Just next to (and outside) the main zip slightly to the right of my left nipple. (And before anybody asks, that's in the same place as most other men's left nipples).

(4) Nope, and you can ignore them if it's not drafty. Big, chunky, only four, and easily handled with gloved hands.

(5) Not in my experience, I've flown fast jets, microlights and the odd helicopter - all wearing a helmet, whilst wearing one of these jackets and never had any discomfort so long as the collar is properly tucked down.

(6) For British winter yes, I can't speak for anybody else's winter since I only usually fly in ours.

In fact it may be the only bit of British military flying clothing that is better than anybody else's (except maybe the cape leather gloves, and those are too cold in a drafty cockpit).

G

Whatever you come up with, if they can do a version which actually fits women, you'll make lots of people very happy...well, alright, a few of us anyway.

We wear leather jackets. This is borne out through experience rather than posing value!
(a) The leather jacket (if treated well) will outlast these other 'scraggy' cloth jackets by years and years. Therefore it is better value for money for us.
(b) The leather jacket is virtually wind proof and very insulating. This covers most of our needs when on the ground waiting around for some action! The old ones were unable to provide the same thermal level of warmth over long periods.
(c) Because they look smart, people look after them. They take pride in wearing them.

What does a jacket need: [For UK needs]

Deep pockets / epaulettes / Pen holder on shoulder section for 2 to 3 pens. High pull up collar. Inside pockets / zip and popper front. More pockets!.

The jacket would definetly need a pocket that would hold a flash light , perhaps a mini mag light and a pocket for a leatherman.

I echo the comments of Genghis.

I've also worn the cold weather jacket in a variety of aircraft both fixed wing and rotary and never found better. At the moment I wear the leather jacket supplied by my employer for most of my flying but often find it too cumbersome, a lot of the time I've taken to wearing a fleece.

I'll happily test out anything based on the cold weather jacket and I'd even part with cash for a new jacket based on it, and that's saying something.

JAFO

Genghis - As an aside have you tried the silk inners with cape leather gloves? It makes an amazing difference.

Edited to remove reference to having an idea for another type of jacket as someone's already had it.

I too like the RAF Cold Weather Jacket but it could be improved upon:

Firstly, the look needs to be more tailored to ensure pilots remain smart on the job.

The velcro on the cuffs wears out and the tabs flap about aimlessly after a couple of years use - maybe a press stud instead (or elastic works for me; provided it's tension is adjustable). Ditto Velcro on the epaulettes.

The RAF Jacket material soaks up water like a sponge after a some use - I'd like to see a fire-proof, water proof and breathable material employed for both lining and outer. It should also be resistant to oil and jet fuel.

The outer should be available in a selection of colours; black, navy, dark grey etc.

The inner should be day-glo yellow with reflective strips sewn in; when reversed, this would then double as a high-viz jacket when airside and as a useful location aid should the worst happen.

It should be machine washable (and ironable for the army types!)

Pen and mag-lite pockets on the arm- definitely!

Mobile phone pocket - yes. Radio pocket - no thanks; too bulky. Frequency card pocket optional - could look scruffy after use.
Main pockets to be zipped to prevent FOD.

Huge pocket on the inside for my wallet and ferrari keys............ sorry; must have nodded off for a minute!

J

I'm with Genghis on this one: not much beats the Crab cold weather flying jacket on practicality and long term wear. I scrounged my first one in 1968 at Linton (and I mean scrounge, RN Mids were certainly not expected to fly in the snow in Chipmunks in anything designed to maintain body heat :rolleyes: ), and still have one issued about 25 years ago, and going strong.

Practical points - I've the usual collection of jackets and:

Leather looks neat, but often doesn't wear well.
Difficult to get a neat cuff on a leather jacket (my USN one is good, but often needs replacing).
Sleeve pockets are a waste of space, IMO.
Pen pockets on sleeves are best as per the crab Mk3 jacket
Length is important, the Mk3 has a fold out crotch flap which looks naff, but is very effective in keeping the kidneys warm :)
Colour choice should be available, and the idea of a hi vis reflective stripe somewhere has merit. I'm not a fan of reversible jackets, if you're injured, trapped, swimming or any combination of, then you are stuck with what you have.
Ski jackets often have a fascinating collection of hidden and practical pockets, which could be copied over to a flying jacket. Karbon are my favourite, have a look at their pockets for ideas.
Epaulettes should be an option: not always wanted, and they can hook up on shoulder harnesses in some helicopters.
Collar (and hidden hood) should be slim, otherwise they can dislodge a headset when you turn your head.
After years of use (at least 35?), the RAF jacket is still in production, with minimum changes: there must be a reason
:ok:

Putting a radio, or anything else that is hard and a little bulky, just to the right of my left nipple isn't a good idea, IMO. That's right where the shoulder harness goes, and just about over my sternum. Maybe I'm not as broad as Genghis, but I emphatically do not want a gun pocket, nor any other pocket, there. I haven't worn one of those jackets, but they look remarkably like the standard ski jacket from many of the online outdoor retailers in the US. I have a leather flying jacket, and I like it most of the time, but the stretch stuff around the bottom isn't the best idea. It rides up and leaves your kidneys exposed during preflight when you're climbing around. The Mk3 and similar are an improvement there. I have one sort of like it, but in nicer colors, with a zip-in liner, and it works pretty well, but I admit I wear my leather jacket most of the time. The sleeve pocket with pen slots is one thing I miss about all my current jackets. Do not leave that off.

GLS Night Pilot,
I presume you fly HEMS.
Have you any regulations concerning High visibility clothing when you land at a scene? Would high viz jackets pose any problems in glass cockpits with reflection?
What do the Paramedics wear? and what types of problems do they encounter with there jackets?

Of course, as long as the rest of it is good, then a choice of left or right arm for the torch/pen pocket - for those of us blessed to be left handed in a world of righties.

Nope, I'm just a lowly offshore pilot. Reflective strips or other hi-viz stuff wouldn't be a problem, but it's not required. The jacket is covered up with a survival vest/Mae West anyway.

What's a glass cockpit? We mostly have plexiglass windshields and windows...... :cool:

Layered, starting with a thin vest, possibly mesh, for summer wear, with a few well placed pockets for flashlight, possible handheld radio, etc. Any major pocket should be under the arms so as not to interfere with shoulder straps. No pockets on the chest. The pockets would open to the inside of the vest to allow the following layers to be added.

If a pocket is provided to carry, say a handheld radio or GPS in an underarm pocket, add re-enforcing material across the shoulder and down to the pocket so the fabric itself doesn’t stretch out of shape when carrying the load.

Next layer is a Nomex fleece fabric vest for warmth which zips to and over the summer vest. This layer has zip off sleeves of the same Nomex fabric and a turn up collar. This layer is the flash fire protection.

Next layer is a leather or synthetic wind shell vest, which zips to and over the fleece fabric. Has slit hand warmer exterior pockets and zip off sleeves as well.

Overall, the modular jacket should be short so as not to sit on the back edge. All fabric layers should be thin to avoid bulkiness. All collars and cuffs should be knit/elastic for comfort. Sleeve pockets can be added to the outer layers, left or right handed. Each layer can have a Velcro patch for name tag application, etc.

Make us one and I'll beta test it here in New Mexico for you.

Judging by the age of some of the RAF (or ex-RAF) jackets I've seen, I'm not sure that applies. I've binned a very good G-1 leather jacket after about 8 years, my Mk.3 is much older than that and still looks pretty much good as new.


Fair comment, and I can see Ron's point about putting such a pocket under the arm - but would mention that any pocket that is well designed should be totally unintrusive if you choose to put nothing in it.

(Plus being a Brit of Northern birth and slowly receding hairline, I like a gun pocket on my non-flying jackets as somewhere to put a folded cloth cap.)



I confess not, but to be honest stopped wearing them some years ago. I wear the slightly thicker Luftwaffe gloves normally, and step up to padded gloves in a truly thicker cockpit, then add inners to those. Just my personal preference there - I've never really found the cape leather gloves ideal in anything but a FJ. But, this is drifting severely off-topic - other than to mention that any flying jacket must have somewhere to put your gloves when not wearing them.

G

Shows that there is no such thing as the perfect flying jacket.
1. Leather
2. Prefer elasticated cuffs and waistband, but they don't wear well.
3. Covered pen / torch pocket
4. Natty stylish collar and not double breasted! (that blows yer RAF cold wx jacket out of the water)
5. Epaulettes not necessary

The Mk.3 flying jacket is the one to fight over.

Worn mine in all weather conditions in service and as a civi and love it and they last so long so great value.

I have always wondered about a leather version but of the very light and soft leather style.

No epaulettes or material cuffs. Agree with jellycopter the velcro on the cuffs wears out.

I think leather is the smartest but I'm willing to try a breathable fabric. I think the arm pocket should be on the right sleeve not the left so I don't have to change hands from the cyclic to get something. The pen pockets should be larger, at least one anyway, to accommodate my nice Zenon torch, 4" x 1". I think the epaulettes should be popper closure as velcro seems to stick to the shoulder harness. I also like the idea of a pocket on the outside for a mobile phone or radio. Also perhaps a couple of high viz stripes. Somewhere for sunglasses? Asking a lot of a jacket but he did ask.

Regards,

Chopperpilot47

The original RAAF grey/green outside / dayglo inside was a dog. The cuffs wore out quickly, the waist rode up too easily, the pen pocket got surrounded by ink lines on short finals, and coffee stains showed up too soon. And bloodstains never came out.

Wore a police leather flying jacket for 6 years, and it was already a 4-year-old hand-me-down when i got it. Excellent jacket, with a zip-in fleecy liner for winter. Somebody else is still wearing it after another 15 years.

These days I go for comfort and ease, and sacrifice some safety aspects. It is a Great Southern polyester job (probably burns very nicely), which scrunches down small enough to fit in a Flight Safety shoulder bag, along with the usual goodies. Unfolds, wrinkle-free, and provides an amazing amount of protection against wind and cold (down to -5 degrees.) Collar comes up and covers the ears.

Zip front, with a flap to cover the zip and keep the wind out, large pockets on sides and breast, with flaps and studs for FOD. Gussets on the shoulder for free arm movement, studs on cuff flaps.

Keeps some rain out, and then dries quickly when the rain stops or you get inside.

No pen pocket, unfortunately, but the dark blue colour hides coffee spills and most likely would hide me too, if I took it swimming.

For really cold and windy days, out comes the Drizabone Brumby jacket, but it is a bit bulky and I very quickly overheat once in the cockpit.

Could anyone tell me which company make the RAF Mk3 jacket?

Aero,

I suspect that would be a hard call, and probably changes over the years with new contracts/same old specs. My Mk3 was built in 1978, Contract 1702. NATO ref etc. all still readable on the label!

Scrawny,

If you are following the gist of this thread, have you got hold of a Mk3 to check what is good/bad about it?

A/Charlie,

That would be the RAAF copy of the USAF jacket? Mine (Dad's, he didn't want it;) ) pretty much stays in the wardrobe, along with the Police Air Wing leather jacket, which was a poorly modified motorcycle jacket: which we had to pay for :rolleyes: I also have a WW2 Irvin jacket (genuine) which is much treasured, and still nice and toasty for the Melbourne winter. But definitely not the go for using in helicopters: how the heck the RAF tail gunners managed in them, I shudder to think :cool:

Mk3 RAF Cold Weather Jackets: has/did anyone ever see the trousers to go with them?

Mr Eacott,

I have seen the MK3 jacket and can see why the jacket is in favour with pilots.
The CUT of the jacket has been well thought through. It is not as baggy as the jackets that are available on the market today, so therefore will not be as bulky or uncomfortable in the cockpit. Having elastic on the bottoms of flying jackets seems pointless as this will ride up when you are sitting down. The MK3 jacket again seems to sort this problem out. This combined with elastic pulleys seems to be the answer. The cuffs on the MK3 are also good as again gives the pilot the option to have them tight or loose. Some of the jackets on the market now have the elastic cuffs. This is ok but can't be adjusted and also wears more quickly. The big flap on the front of the jacket is a very old and outdated design. I don't disagree that this keeps out the wind but there are much better ways to do this now. The chest pockets on the MK3 are Ok but i think they are old fashioned and can be improved. No hand warmer pockets! Collar could also do with improvement. What is wrong with a fleece type collar. Smart, can be zipped right up if cold and also pulled down. The hood seems to be abit pointless as the jacket is not waterproof!! Why would you put a hood up unless it was raining?
I think the high opinion of the jacket is because of the cut. If the cut was replicated, pockets and design improved, would this be the ideal jacket?
Why i started this thread is that i have a good friend that designs jackets for a big Ski clothing company and he specifically works on jacket design. I have spoken to him about this and he can't believe some of the jackets that are available to pilots! He told me to get opinions of pro pilots as then the design can be worked around these various comments. He has many good ideas to solve the various problems.

Thomas Coupling,

Thanks for the feedback.
I agree with what you are saying about the leather jackets, but surely you must have some negative points about them. Are they as comfortable to fly in as say a lightweight jacket? Are they not a little bit bulky in the cockpit? Do the cuffs not get in the way with all the small dials etc. Do the cuffs not catch when doing Check A\'s? Are they not a little bit too warm in the summer?
They are very durable and do look good but are they the most practical? Many Police air units are not using them as they believe they are too big and bulky and not versatile enough. I have also heard the complaint that they make them feel elitest?

I have a scrounged ex-RAF cold weather jacket and wouldn't change it for anything other than another one. Its warm, windproof and not at all bulky.

One or two minor changes though. The strap up the inside holding up the flap can sometimes sit funny and can be uncomfortable. The fold out hood can also be uncomfortable if not packed away flat. Don't change the collar though its great when doing a walk around on a windy day.

Would like one in black so I don't look like a student walking around in army surplus clothes.

The big pockets are great. I can get a 0.7 litre camelback in my left pocket and with 6 inches of tube sticking out the top can have a drink in flight. Great on cross countries in summer.

Fleece collar? No thanks. I think it would be too irritating and most are polyester. Did you ever read about that glider that got struck by lightning? It hit one wingtip and went out of the other. Turned the collar of the pilots fleece jacket to solid plastic on thw ay through the cockpit!!

FB

Scrawny,

Note your comments, interesting re the ski jacket link after my earlier remarks ;)

I've also got a USN leather jacket, and the fleece collar is (IMHO) ornamental. For a true flying jacket, able to be used in the cockpit, it's liable to dislodge the earpieces on a headset when you turn your head, or catch on the cord at the back of a helmet. The Mk3 has a "hollow" collar, which I keep an old mil issue towelling scarf for the cold days. that's more than thick enough for a flying jacket collar. The hood comment is fair, but for showers, the gaberdine material on the Mk3 has always been adequate, and the hood is the same. If you're going to produce/improve on the kit, make it waterproof with a treatment similar to a ski jacket.

Pockets are never going to suit everyone. Some like them accessible from the outside, like the Mk3, some prefer flying overall type pockets, accessed from across the chest. Personal preference, impossible to be all things to all men. I like the Mk3 style, but it would stand redesign or improvement. A couple of additional pockets, tho', would be an improvement.

Thanks for the interest: looking forward to the end result :ok:

With everybody's comments in mind what do you make of these ideas? Please feel free to be critical!
ARM POCKET - 2 slots for pens / 1 larger slot (for torch or Leatherman) / Flap cover (serves 2 purposes - No.1 Looks better, No.2 stops pens falling out) / Concealed zip pocket underneath flap for Epaulettes, Leatherman etc
COLLAR - Look like a Ski jacket collar but shorter (Can be worn with zip right to top if cold OR folded down) / No fleece lining / Would a hood be needed?
EPAULETTES - Velcro fastened all the way along to the neck (This will stop it flapping about) / Will also make it look more discreet when not worn at work
LEFT CHEST ID POCKET - ID Badge to be velcro secured on / Flap covering when not at work / Zip pocket behind the pocket designed to fit Licence or Log book / Can also fit in gloves etc
RIGHT CHEST POCKET - Zip secured internal pocket / Specially designed to hold Mobile phone and Sunglasses/Glasses
BOTTOM POCKETS - Fleece lined hand warmer pockets (Similar to those on Ski jackets
WAISTBAND - Like the MK3 / No elastic, just elastic internal pulleys either side that are accessed inside the bottom pockets (This should sort out problems of the cords getting caught on controls etc) / ALSO a higher waist pulley (Like on Ski jackets. Gives you the option of further waist tightening so you don't get loose fabric in cockpit)
CUFFS - Velcro secured with loose elastic on back of cuff (Taken again from Ski jackets)
MAIN ZIP - Open zip with covering flap on inside of jacket (Mainly designed so that the jacket can be put on/taken off quickly. This is a concern for HEMS crews when they are in a rush. MK3 buttons would be a problem if you are trying to get the jacket on when rushing to the aircraft. Covering flap in New jacket would do just as good a job
RIGHT ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - Still need feedback on this. The idea is to have something like a Kneeboard design but smaller and less cumbersome. ANY IDEAS?
PIT ZIPS - Full length pit zips that can be done up/undone whilst in flight
STRETCH MATERIAL - Underam amd elbow joints (Stretch fabric points under arms and elbow joints as this is where it is needed most in the cockpit. e.g When you are stretching up for buttons above you, Check A's, Very applicable for HEMS Parmedics)
FABRIC - Waterproof, Breathable lining / BLACK for civilian use / YELLOW HIGH VIZ with scotchlite tape for HEMS / FR Navy for Police
ZIP IN FLEECE - To make the jacket more versatile in all conditions
ELBOW PATCH - Extra fabric from elbow to Cuff as this seems to be high wear areas
INNER ZIP POCKET - Very large inner pocket so it can take maps and other large items (Abit like Barbour internal pockets)

ARM POCKET - Don't think it needs a cover, but otherwise, yes.

COLLAR - I really don't think you can beat the Mk 3 collar.

EPAULETTES - Fine

LEFT CHEST ID POCKET - Who needs this? Even most police units don't bother.

RIGHT CHEST POCKET - Okay.

BOTTOM POCKETS - Sounds okay.

WAISTBAND - Good.

CUFFS - Sounds all right.

MAIN ZIP - If you're in a rush then just do up the zip.

RIGHT ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - I can see the use for both left and right "armboards" as long as they are not intrusive or bulky.

PIT ZIPS - Like it.

STRETCH MATERIAL - At my age and weight stretch material wherever you can get it works for me.

FABRIC - Why not make it reversible, Navy one side, hi-vis the other - one jacket, lots of different markets.

ZIP IN FLEECE - If it's removable, then why not.

ELBOW PATCH - It's been a few years since my elbows got that much wear and tear. But why not.

INNER ZIP POCKET - Yes, yes and yes again. The more pockets you can sneak in the more versatile the jacket is.

Scrawny - Check your PMs, I've gone on for long enough on here.

:ok:

ARM POCKET - 2 slots for pens / 1 larger slot (for torch or Leatherman) / Flap cover (serves 2 purposes - No.1 Looks better, No.2 stops pens falling out) / Concealed zip pocket underneath flap for Epaulettes, Leatherman etc

Should work

COLLAR - Look like a Ski jacket collar but shorter (Can be worn with zip right to top if cold OR folded down) / No fleece lining / Would a hood be needed?
I must admit I've found that hood useful quite a few times when faffing on an airfield or with an aircraft in need of tieing down or a little TLC. But, I'd only retain it so long as it doesn't get in the way (and on the Mk3 it doesn't).

EPAULETTES - Velcro fastened all the way along to the neck (This will stop it flapping about) / Will also make it look more discreet when not worn at work
Should make sense - I certainly don't actually need them, and I'm sure that's true of most civvies

LEFT CHEST ID POCKET - ID Badge to be velcro secured on / Flap covering when not at work / Zip pocket behind the pocket designed to fit Licence or Log book / Can also fit in gloves etc
Not sure. ID / wings / badges come in various forms and shapes. My instinct would be to go with the approach I'm using at the moment - matching velcro.


RIGHT CHEST POCKET - Zip secured internal pocket / Specially designed to hold Mobile phone and Sunglasses/Glasses
Big enough to hold an ICOM?

BOTTOM POCKETS - Fleece lined hand warmer pockets (Similar to those on Ski jackets
That'll work, although it would be nice to have the option of zipping them up.

WAISTBAND - Like the MK3 / No elastic, just elastic internal pulleys either side that are accessed inside the bottom pockets (This should sort out problems of the cords getting caught on controls etc) / ALSO a higher waist pulley (Like on Ski jackets. Gives you the option of further waist tightening so you don't get loose fabric in cockpit)
Again, should work

CUFFS - Velcro secured with loose elastic on back of cuff (Taken again from Ski jackets)

MAIN ZIP - Open zip with covering flap on inside of jacket (Mainly designed so that the jacket can be put on/taken off quickly. This is a concern for HEMS crews when they are in a rush. MK3 buttons would be a problem if you are trying to get the jacket on when rushing to the aircraft. Covering flap in New jacket would do just as good a job
I'm unconvinced of your criticism of the Mk3, but I'm sure that you're approach will work. Just a thought here, my old G3 (classic WW2 fur-lined) does tend in some cockpits for the zip to ride down when I was in no position to spare a hand to sort it but admitting some quite deeply irritating draughts. I've always been slightly paranoid since about zips coming an inch or two open at the top - which in sub-zero / open cockpit is unhealthy. On the G3 I solved this with an "unauthorised mod" of a small leather strap added to the zip fastener which went through the neck buckle.

RIGHT ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - Still need feedback on this. The idea is to have something like a Kneeboard design but smaller and less cumbersome. ANY IDEAS?
The more I think about this, the more I think that I'd rather just leave it on my kneeboard and not my jacket. Mil users would (potentially) have a security problem there anyhow.

PIT ZIPS - Full length pit zips that can be done up/undone whilst in flight
Never had such a thing to play with, so pass!

STRETCH MATERIAL - Underam amd elbow joints (Stretch fabric points under arms and elbow joints as this is where it is needed most in the cockpit. e.g When you are stretching up for buttons above you, Check A's, Very applicable for HEMS Parmedics)


FABRIC - Waterproof, Breathable lining / BLACK for civilian use / YELLOW HIGH VIZ with scotchlite tape for HEMS / FR Navy for Police
I know I'm old fashioned, but I do actually quite like green - and it allows it's use without question by mil aircrew if they choose to go shopping. Bottom line is - give a choice!


ZIP IN FLEECE - To make the jacket more versatile in all conditions
Or save yourself trouble and make it compatible with one of the standard outdoors zip-in fleeces?

ELBOW PATCH - Extra fabric from elbow to Cuff as this seems to be high wear areas
And please could the elbows be heat/flame resistant - this may sound daft but I've seen many flying suits melted through at the elbows from contact with bits of aircraft techically unreachable.

INNER ZIP POCKET - Very large inner pocket so it can take maps and other large items (Abit like Barbour internal pockets)
Amen

Well, that's my slant on it anyway, hope it's useful.

G

Scrawny,

Direct reply to your suggestions, hopefully not hijacking the thread ;)

ARM POCKET - Pen pockets only: a pocket under the pen pocket gets bulky, and can pull the sleeve around. The weight of a leatherman or mini maglight would certainly distort the sleeve of a jacket, IMO.

COLLAR - As per the Mk3. Ski jacket collars get too bulky, & I've flown in plenty of different types of ski jacket! No hideaway hood in the collar, but fold away down the back of the jacket, as per Mk3. Or a zip pocket in the back of the jacket with a removable hood, as in Karbon ski jackets.

EPAULETTES - If needed, as per your suggestion

LEFT CHEST ID POCKET - No thanks

RIGHT CHEST POCKET - Yes, especially if able to be accessed with the jacket zipped closed

BOTTOM POCKETS - Not sure about the fleece lining, are you talking about extra pockets on the side of the jacket, low down on the side seam? If so, good idea. All pockets should have zips, to secure against loose items falling out.

CUFFS - Agree, but very important to get the orientation of the cuff right, so the seam doesn't catch on switches, etc.

MAIN ZIP - Agree, but as with others commenting here, the Mk3 buttons are easily done up when wearing gloves. The zip should be able to be unzipped from the bottom as well as the top, and should have a large tab, easily operated with flying gloves on.

RIGHT ARM FREQUENCY POCKET - No thanks.

PIT ZIPS - ???? not sure what they are

STRETCH MATERIAL - not sure whether this is necessary with a properly cut jacket, eg Mk3. Most overhead switches don't need that much of a reach, anyway.

FABRIC - Hi vis materials will create a problem with reflections in the cockpit, both from the instruments, and from the perspex: especially at night. Not a Good Thing. Waterproof, breathable, hard wearing, non flammable and light weight fabric, in a selection of colours, mostly dark. Hides the grease and oil stains from preflights :)

ZIP IN FLEECE - again, not sure, but my preference would be no. Ski jackets with zip in fleeces are inordinately bulky/heavy with them in, and loose and a bad fit with the fleece removed. The Mk3 has a thin perforated lining designed 30+ years ago, something more modern would suffice.

ELBOW PATCH - Not needed in a cockpit, I'd have thought. Where are all these pilots leaning to wear out their elbows :confused:

INNER ZIP POCKET - Yes, never have too many pockets :ok:

Thanks again for your efforts, no doubt there'll be a PPRuNe special edition when all this gets onto the market :p

Add on thought - looking at a couple of ski jackets, one very useful addition to this year's kit is a pocket in the lower arm, on the left sleeve, large enough for a mobile phone/wallet. Just above the velcro fastener, it is ideal for access when flying, with a zip neatly hidden by the seam of the arm.

Thought I'd pop this back to the top. Anything ever come of it, by the way?

IMHO, the Mk3 cannot be beaten. (Since it was available to all mil aircrew, I don't think you could reasonably call it the RAF Mk3)

A greater choice of colours would go down a treat.

The towelling scarf inside the collar certainly works.

The trousers were available, but I don't think they were popular, except with Puma/Wessy sliders, who didn't like the cold much.