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What is it about the Wessex that makes people so fond of it?
What is it about the Wessex that makes people so fond of it? I remember some time back an RAF helo flew into the Manchester Zone from North Wales with a casualty for Wythenshawe Hospital. As he was departing towards Crewe on his way home to Valley the the controller said "confirm you're a Sea King?"
Back came the reply, in a shocked 'you must be joking' voice, "negative, we're a Wessex!. All helos look the same to me (well, almost:) ), so what's so special about this one? SSD |
How long have you got SSD ?
Maybe you should ask on the Mil Forum, you might finish up with something as good as the Vulcan and Canberra threads...... |
Wessex special ?
Could be becuase it one of the few yank machines we bought and actually made better when we built then. (especially with the gnomes). Got some great pics of a wessex at home at an airshow or something, coming in to land and taking out a brick wall with its tail. Plus some early wessex pics at sea, with one downing in the drink and the later recovery. Shame I don't have a scanner. Further: Having only had limited contact with them in the service (1991) I gather they regarded them as being a robust and capable machine (quite rare in our mil inventory), a bit like an SLR (FnFal) if anyone knows what I mean. You can use it in all conditions, throw it about, built a small bridge with them, march a troop across and it will still do the job witohut failing. With only a few weaknesses (recoil and no auto, plus limited mag, and later the ammo becoming non nato std(SLR)) or hot and high even with the gnome Wessex. |
The affection for the Wessex is borne out of nostalgia. For in the RAF, it is the Wessex that was the first big multi engined helicopter that people learned to fly in. It smelled like an aeroplane should smell. It forgave bad manners from man with stick in hand. It served for a very long time, and although somewhat late in retiring, was faithful to the end. It looked like a military helicopter and especially so when landing with speed tail on the ground, gear still aloft. It did have vices though, and could and did roll over and shake itself to bits on occasion.
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I think that Yozzer is right - it was mostly nostalgia. In its day it was a good machine, with a good payload and single engine performance. It was reasonably robust and the fuel governing system was years ahead of its time when it entered service.
However, in its latter years as a civil machine it was showing definite signs of being past its sell-by date. There were problems with rotor blades, a very long lead time on some spares and it always had problems with icing. In its heyday I loved it, but it was supplanted in my affections in later years by other machines like the Bell 212, and the Dauphin. But what do I know; I seem to be one of the few contributors to PPRuNe who loves the R22!:} |
Queen of the Skies
Spent almost 11 years on the old girl and of all the rotary types is the one I prefer. OK it was limited in performance but we didn't mind really. Nuts and bolts technology, quite forgiving, rugged, hardly ever let me down. Few modern aids to fly it. Westlands built a good-un. Used in a number of theatres worldwide in it's heyday. Crews really felt that they were learning to fly real SH at Shawbury.
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If you can double post on this subject, so can I.
To: Oscar Duece
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Could be because it one of the few yank machines we bought and actually made better when we built them. (Especially with the gnomes). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before Westland was licensed to build the S-58, Sikorsky had already built the HSS-1 which had two T-58s driving into a combining gearbox. I believe Sikorsky did this on their own hook but the US Navy was not too interested. Perchance Westland copied the design but with British engines? :E :E |
When one says Wessex, people normally refer to the twin engined variety known as the Wessex Mk5 in the Royal Navy. ( Can't really say what the RAF did! )
With a huge 350 hours under the belt, I had the pleasure of being at the tail end of the IFTU in 1963 or so. The Wessex was flown for 24 hours a day for weeks on end. If the weather was bad, we just hovered at 5 ft for hours. This got a lot of bugs ironed out. In 1964 848 Squadron flew the Wessex in both the Farnborough and Biggin Hill air shows with great success. We then went to Aden and Kenya on HMS Albion and found the machine behaved well in hot high conditions. After that to the Far East to swap over with a Wessex Mk1 squadron. The Mk 5 had incredible single engine performance and a very reliable and capable auto pilot for that time. The transmission was limited to 3200 lbs of torque and 1 engine could put out up to 2950 lbs, so it had to be very hot and/or high to make much difference. Hence we had no cat A problems. On 1 occasion in Brunei, I had to pick up 9 paras with all their gear from out of a jungle clearing. Only 1 engine would start, so off we went hoping the other would start once airborne. It didn't, so we picked up all 9 with out any problems. On another occasion I had to pick up 22 rangers, no problem. The 5 was slow, about 90 to 100 kts, tough as hell, very reliable, forgiving of stupid pilots and simply a delight to fly. Yes there were some fatal accidents but in general most were due to finger trouble by either pilot or engineer. The other 7 twins I have flown still do not have that power to weight ratio. A much loved helicopter that is virtually no more.:( |
Beating the 'faster' and younger helo types from field to field in NI was always a good way to stock up the beer stash!
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It's fondly remembered for the same reasons as the "Shackleton" was i.e. Grey & wrinkled on the outside and Black & smelly on the inside! Similar to an elephant's orifice I believe.
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Ambi, actually some had grey wrinklies on the inside, and it was green and smelly! (herbivore)
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Wessex 5 (of course)
For Nigel Osborne:
Still got any Borneo pics Nigel? Mine all went in a box to an ex a year or three ago. By the way I object strongly to the guys who reckon it was a reliable machine; I've lost count of the number of engine changes we did in the field. The weak links were lubrication of the engine's number 5 bearing, failure of the freewheel unit between the engine and the coupling gearbox and a disconcerting habit of both engines to stop abrubtly as you lowered the lever. When we reported this to Rolls Royce they told us their engines never stop; our boss then demonstrated this to the rep at 10,000 feet over Sembawang. He didn't bother to relight them and the white faced man got the point. Mercifully this problem was then cured by the adoption of the ugly shovel nose. Even so, I loved the Wessex. It forgave me so many unforgiveable sins and despite a multitude of engine failures never gave me a brown moment that wasn't of my own making. But I was a bit shocked to see it still flying around in Hongkong in the late nineties but that really shows the inherent rightness of Sikorsky's and Westland's design. |
Toad
Shame on you for those derogatory remarks, I thought I had trained you better!!! In 1035 hours on the Mk5, I only once had to shut an engine down due to surging, I never had an engine fail nor did anyone in our flight in Borneo that I can recall or in 707 Squadron where I spent my final year. The big noses came after my time. Yes, I have plenty of photos and slides of Borneo, even our old grotty house in Sibu! You'll have to visit Oz to see them!:p |
Nigel.
We boring old farts will have to beg to differ on reliability; but I remember the thump under your feet and the sparks from the jetpipe beside you as clear as today. And ssssSO OFTEN! I was Bar Officer 848, A Flight, Bario under Dick Steil, also in QLD now. You and I only ever flew twice together according to my little blue books. Incidentally if the Bar Officer's Whirlwind 7 at Bario had coughed even once we would never have had any beer from Labuan and you wouldn't have someone to argue with now. Difference was the Wessex could afford to cough (and did!) and the Whirlwind during my time there could not. Nuff said. |
In nearly 3000 hrs of Wessex time I only had one engine run down on me and a spurious fire caption - other than that, the old girl just kept on going.
It was a top SH machine, hampered only by its lack of top speed and limited power due to the transmission layout. If you wanted to land a team of hooligans in some bad boys front garden at first light then the Wessex was the machine to do it in - that undercarriage saved my bacon (and embarrassment) on several occasions. I think Lu is right, in that Westlands copied the combining gearbox so that the RR Gnome could be used (the same engines keeping me up in the air nowadays!). Hot and high was a problem for the old girl - running out of TR authority at the top of Troodos was always entertaining. A rattly, underpowered junk bucket by comparison to modern helos but in its day it truly was 'Queen of the Skies'. |
Fondness is in the eye of the beholder.
I may be getting my aircraft mixed up but I remember a post by a former crewman on the Wessex. He indicated that an explosive cartridge started the engines and that the propellant in the cartridges was very unstable. This individual recounted the number of times he would have to sit in the open door with his feet dangling out while he was holding the cartridges ready to dump them overboard if something caused them to sputter.
I’ll bet those guys that performed this function do not recall the Wessex with any degree of fondness. But then again Fondness is in the eye of the beholder. :E :E |
Lu,
That was the Wezzie 1, which had a cartridge initiated avpin starter, the problems were never the cartridges, it was the charge of avpin you carried if you were landing away and had to re-start :uhoh:. The Mk 3 had an air starter, much more civilised, and the Mk 5 was an all-electric affair on the 2 gnome donks ( a la Sea King). Westlands may have copied the idea for the coupling gearbox, but came up with their own design, as the T58s were horizontal and the gnomes at the same angle as the main shaft from the coupling gearbox to the main box:ok:. |
Funnily enough I had a beer in a pub just this afternoon which has a Wessex slowly rotting in its back garden.
A shocking waste I've always thought (its been there some time ) Keep the stories coming, a potential sticky in the making here !! :ok: |
for a wet wessex, if you dive go to stoney cove and they have a sunken one lurking in the depths.
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Smart selection of pics John, although I can't for the life of me work out what the techie(?) on the right of the first picture is doing.
When we Crabs on 72 were preening ourselves for having had the first mil Wessex to pass 5000 hours, Westlands sent a congratulatory/BZ which ended up in the linebook (whatever happened to that...?). It said all the usual pleasantries, noted that the highest-houred RN airframe had reached just over 4500 hours - oh, and Bristows fleet leader (newer aircraft than ours) had just passed 13,600...:ooh: ) |
And 13,600 was a very significant figure for Wessex drivers........
Along with 2,700, 710 and 26,750.... Blimey, what still-surviving brain cell did they come out of! |
Sad bunch of Junglies
For those who truly appreciate the wonders of the Wessex you had to have some time in on the Mk3.
This amazing machine had a cockpit full of gadgets and gizzmos to make the editors of "STUFF" magazine weep. In 1969 we had a fully coupled two-lane autopilot with 4 axis capability. Fully integrated nav-displays that make today's stuff look like Meccano. A fantastic platform for IFR and for those who chased submarines in the fog at 150 feet rad-alt it was the perfect chariot .......................... with some minor drawbacks .......... or not so minor ........ like it only had one engine. Not only that but the one engine was a Napier (later Rolls Royce) Gazelle turbine! Still we didn't know any better in those days and we just thought that having 2 engines meant there was twice as much chance of one failing!! It was also a bit short of fuel ............ 1 and a half hours at most. We thought that this meant you didn't have to worry about when you were next likely to be near a loo ..... then some ratbag invented IFR (in flight refueling) . In the case of the Wx3 this meant you had a refueling nozzle next to the entrance door to the cabin and instead of being allowed to go backto "mum" when you ran out of juice you had to stop by at your local friendly frigate, where, unable to land, you winched up the refueling rig and plugged in. To avoid restricting the frigate's freedom of movement they were allowed to weave around with you in your Wx being towed around like a dog on a lead...... which was not a lot of fun at night???? Still .... fond memories of this a real Wessex, properly painted Blue and Yellow and not disguised as a dog-turd (We loved you really). Anyone got any Wx3 photos? John Eacott?? :ok: |
Anyone got any Wx3 photos?
Geoff,
Yes, last one in the run above ;) I'll find some more (after I resize this lot, they're all 800 x 600 and too big. Sorry!). On top of all the wonderful gizmos on the HAS3, the rheostat control of the transition signals was a joy to behold, on a dark and gloomy night when it hadn't been used for a couple of weeks and had a touch of surface corrosion to spike the signal:rolleyes: IFR? Wasn't fuel state Lamb about 20 minutes, and Chicken (IIRC) 12 minutes? To which Flyco would inevitably "Roger, remain in the port wait" :ok: How much faith did we have in those fuel gauges!!!! |
Was the BarAlt Hold on the Wessex autopilot rigged the same as on the American H-34 piston powered version....like vented into the cabin...so that when the crewman opened the cabin door in flight....!!! Amazing how quickly the manifold pressure could change when you had your eyes shut!
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the linebook (whatever happened to that...?). Hi mate, Yes, we struck up the old colours about 12 months ago. I left the RAF in Jan. They re-badged the Linton sqns like they did with Valley, who have 208 and 74. 208 being basic Hawk and 74 Tac Weapons. Funnily enough, :mad: was the old Linton 1 Sqn boss, :mad: was 2ic, and there were a few other ex-72 mates(myself included) who were kicking around the bazaar at the time(Don't know if you know them). Because 72 had only folded about 12 months previously, all the sqn history, books, paraphernalia was intact and in one piece. :mad: was the outgoing boss so it was fairly seamless. Some minor royal pitched up to Linton, there was a whole load of flag-waving and blighters marching around with guns, and hey presto, FOLA lives! The creamies took to the FOLA thing like ducks to water, I re-instated FLAG and the bar was trashed. Some things never change. In stark contrast was the old Linton 2 Sqn who became 207(I think)Sqn. Somebody found a small cardboard box at Admiralty House with their memorabilia, consisting of a couple of old piccys and a rubber duck. No history, ergo no savoir faire, as the Frogs would have it. You should see all the stuff they have on 72. Diaries, the lot. Even Exercise Green Blade. Lots of stuff from our era in NI in the photo albums which I didn't know existed. 1000hrs MTV |
Was'nt it because it was full of Scout bits!!:ok:
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Never flown in one or even sat in one, but will carry to my grave the wonderful sight of a 72 Sqdn Wsx flying at about 45ft down the avenue at Stonyhurst College in Lancashire jinking slightly sideways to get away from the rugby posts and then doing a serene climb and such a delicate wingover type move with the big side door open and loads of legs and arms waving like mad, and then doing it all again, how in gods name that big bird stayed in the air when it seemed that I could see every rotor blade as they turned was beyond me, I eventually traked down the driver and wrote to him, and in reply I had a most wonderful letter of explanation as to how and why he had carried out those manouvers on that day, a very lasting memory of what sounds like a truly good helicopter!
Vfr |
Thanks everyone for brilliant posts on our beloved machine. Why can't the other threads on Rotorheads be conducted with such knowledge and good humour?
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Ahhhh the Wessex!:O
I suppose time dulls the memory, only leaving the good bits, but I loved the thing. All the frights were self induced, (one JFR induced!) except the time I extended a training sortie at Merryfield so as to return to VL with 300lbs MLA fuel, only to have both engines flame out as I taxied onto stand. So much for the gauges! For Lu Z, I beleive the Gnome was a license built T58 anyway, so we even pinched that from the septics. I was always amazed that the US services stuck to the pistons for so long. Delivered a few to Lee-on-Solent at the end of their lives, and see one now and again (XT770) in a paint ball park a couple of miles from here. A paint ball park indeed, and repainted in pseudo camouflage. Yuk. |
As a maintainer, Wessex Vs were the only aircraft which brought on sickness during flight. I was so glad of autostab in the Seakings. On a flight from VL to Valley I sat with my back to the door, opposite the crewy who was sat on the breadboard. I coughed up my lunch onto his map. He pushed my head out of the door and shut it on my neck where I continued to plaster the side of the cab. I remained outside for about half an hour in a February slip stream. I couldn't get back in because I thought the crewy had his foot on my neck. In fact my ear defenders had got cought. I could have come back in anytime.
Spent many an hour asleep on the flotbag, or if not asleep, shouting "Up Pole!". http://hometown.aol.com/junglie846/i...0day%20002.jpg 1981 Air Day rehersal at Points West VL. I count 18 WX http://hometown.aol.com/junglie846/i...0day%20003.jpg A couple of Wessy Flares. A number of Seaking IV TRs were written off during the conversion http://hometown.aol.com/junglie846/i...orway%2081.jpg Norway Winter 1981. Splendid cam. Even when the a/c had departed the puddles of OM15 were a dead give away. (and in summer the piles of pink poo paper next to 4 foot silver birch stumps) 965 |
Spent today thinking of another Wessex trip some while back.
I was teamed up for a rush job to take the RUC's boss from NI to somewhere sneaky, and wound up in a crab Wessex2. On way home we spotted a Nuke submarine cruising southwards between Isle of Man and NI. I talked the Captain (and if you knew the late Roy C, you'll know it wasn't hard) in to wiring it most regally. Several close and low flybys later with many a wing over and torque turn thrown in, we continued to Aldergrove whereupon he's dragged off for a boll*cking. Should only do that sort of thing in a pusser's Mk5. Even Fishheads have the nouse to hate crabs:} Thanks for the pics 965. I'm flying one of those! Talking of autostab, the wessex had one too. I always used to wonder, if the Mk5 was equipped with the Mk 19 autopilot, what utter sh1te mks 1 to 18 must have been:= := |
Ark Royal seem to remember XT770 was one of our Green Parrots at the VIP Flight 781 Sqdn Lee on Solent in Mid 70's. Will check logbook tomo. What a sad end. :sad:
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Someone will be along in a moment to tell the story. :hmm:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...rfailure-1.jpg http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...as/wessex2.jpg |
In my mind a series of photographs we had in 72 Sqn's scrapbook, said more about the Wessex than any words could:
First photo had Walter flying the Queens Own into the Narrow Water ambush site Second had the much larger second IRA bomb going off, obscuring the Wessex in dust, bricks and other debris The third has the old girl, still in the hover, shaking off the blast like a dog just out of the water. The cynical would probably say that the explosion wasn't that close, but that's what the Wessex was like, you felt it would always look after you. Between two 72 Sqn tours in the 90s I was fortunate enought to fly the HH60J. Nothing like as fun and satisfying as the Wessex, a Ford Escort with a fancy stereo, compared to Westland's wonderful old Bentley. |
Big wheeled undercarriage, tailwheel especially.
Although not particularly powerfull, it had plenty of power in reserve if you neede to overtorque it. Great handling - it gave you plenty of advance warning if you were overcooking it. and somehow its limitations meant that you really had to do your pilots stuff to get the best out of it. All in all a truly enjoyable way to fly. |
First photo had Walter flying the Queens Own into the Narrow Water ambush site Second had the much larger second IRA bomb going off, obscuring the Wessex in dust, bricks and other debris The third has the old girl, still in the hover, shaking off the blast like a dog just out of the water. The cynical would probably say that the explosion wasn't that close, but that's what the Wessex was like, you felt it would always look after you. |
Similar thing happened in 85 at Crossmaglen where the mortars came in over the fence as the Wessex was in the hover - the crewman saw one coming and shouted a warning. The captain grabbed a handful of lever and as it climbed one of the bombs rolled under the aircraft and went off blowing the windows in. Walter still flew away, much to the chagrin of the boyos who must have thought they really had one that day.
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The Wessex.....such fond memories.
And some not so fond.......like 5 engine failures in 18 months (500 hours). And electro-hydraulic windscreen wipers that smeared hydraulic fluid on the outside of the screen giving the opposite effect to that desired. Best bits were the huge mainwheels and brick ****house undercarriage. Once got caught out one very dark night in S. Armagh with a fog bank rolling in. 12 troops needed picking up but it was obvious that if I did it in 2 runs, as per the flypro, 6 would have been left behind for a miserable soggy night out. Road moves were out at that time. Had too much fuel to lift all 12 troops so thought a MAUM running take-off at night from an unrecce'd field was a good idea! The old girl did the business and those huge mainwheels skipped over the ruts and bumps until translational lift kicked in. Great machine. I wonder if the Puma will be remembered as fondly? Into RAF service only 6 (?) years after the Wessex and still going strong - and forecast to 2020 I believe (?). Had I been flying a Puma that night in S. Armagh, we'd have stuck 12 on board and not had any concerns about whether we'd have enough power to get airborne. JJ |
much to the chagrin of the boyos who must have thought they really had one that day. |
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