Bell 222 & 230
 

HI Flying a Bell 222 IFR on regular basis in the UK , have not encountered icing yet , but may do in the future ! has anyone any advice on how the B222 handels on encountering inadverent icing conditions

Picked up some 'Trace' ice once. It starts at elbow of the wipers.
Noticed slight decrease in A/S, slight vertical vib. Exited as fast as I could. Not Nice, Ice!:p

Going way WAY North ? Watch out for the famous ice fog up there !!

CC5, if you look in the "gallery", p20, you will see what can happen if you go into icing, under controlled conditions. The ice can build rapidly on the rotor, and I suspect a-222 has an improved blade section than we had, so it will probably affect it more. A rise in Tq. for a steady state( level, constant speed) means you are picking it up.I don`t know how well a Bell rotor will self-shed the ice, so I suggest you don`t try to find out either. Ice can also be accumulating on the fin and stabiliser, depending also on exhaust immersion/speed. This can also lead to a stability problem if you have an autopilot,ie the a/c will become "wallowy", and run out of authority.
The engine intakes, if you have grills fitted can also become coated and choked, unless they are heated, and finally, if you get iced up , beware when you come out of it as when it warms and breaks off, it could damage the t/r, or go down an intake.

As I don`t know the -222, all/any/ none of the above may apply as there are so many combinations of temperature/ droplet size/ concentration, that what may be safe in one helo , may be dangerous in a different type, in the same cloud environment,
particularly if it is of a cumulo-form cloud..

Hope that puts your mind at rest for the winter....!:ok:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think that the Bell 222 was cleared for flight in icing conditions.
Day and night VMC, non-icing conditions or IMC non-icing with the Single/Dual Pilot IMC configuration.

Not teaching to suck eggs but if you fly in icing conditions when the aircraft is not cleared to do so expect some or all of the following:

1. Very rapid build up of ice.
2. The ability to vacate icing conditions may not exist due to terrain etc. so you’re stuck there.
3. Loss of lift on the blades due to ice build up.
4. Increase in torque as lift decreases.
5. Decrease in endurance to increased power required.
6. Vibrations as the rotors may shed ice.
7. Airframe damage as the shedding ice hits the airframe (and tail rotor?).
8. Build up of ice on engine intakes, the Particle Separator may not cope with any shed ice.
9. Possible engine failure due to ice build up on intakes.
10. Decrease in single engine performance.
11. Autorotational characteristics almost certainly affected.
12. Increase in aircraft weight and vibration due to ice will alter handling – IMC?

On top of that lot the aircraft insurance will probably be invalid due to operating outside of the AFM limitations.
It ain’t clever and believe me you won’t find it funny.
As I said I stand to be corrected.

Kalif, suggest you re-read CC5's original post, he mentioned'inadvertent' icing conditions. We should all know what can happen if you ice up, but what I think he was after was incipient and initial characteristics of Bell 222 as ice starts to accrue. Most IFR operators have been there at one time or other and it is nice to have an early heads up that things may be going down a path that you don't neccesarily what to go down!!

Can anyone add further to icing, particulary pilots in oz, as Im am fairly new to IFR, most of my flying is around NSW and have encountered ice when least expected and at altituides well below the suggested freezing level, the worst some times directily over Sydney and close to summer! I wonder how the BK 117 handels it.

Does anyone have any thunderstorm, lightening and sever turbulance stories (in IMC).

Sorry to steal the thread!!!

I have encountered some unexpected icing in B-222, enough to cover the front window with rime ice (no windshield de-ice in that one!) and the nose and wings (wing stubs!) had 2cm (almost 1 inch) rime ice covering the leading edge.

This happened at about 2000´ca 10Nm from destination and the ice accumulation was over about a 5 min period.

I never noticed any unusual vibration or decrase in airspeed and upon landing at destination there was NO ice at all on the blades or tail section.

So I´m pretty happy about flying the B-222 in ice prone areas, although I try to avoid it at all costs.

oldgit, as I said I stand to be corrected.
CC5. You can still expect all or some of what was listed.
Best bet is have a damn good look at the weather, forecast, route, alternates etc. before you launch. As we all know in the UK, the weather at this time of the year can close in behind you very rapidly and leave you with no option but to continue to destination or alternate.

Thanks to all
 

Firstly may I thank you to all who contributed , the information supplied was helpful and informative .when I have been flying in conditions that I think may lead to icing I have switched off the de ice on the windowns so as to give me a clear visual warning that icing is in effect happening , although all the other signs that have been mentioned I also check for.
Thank you for you help CC5

Hi CC5

You will see any indication of ice accumulation immediately start to build up on the windshield wiper arms and above/below the deiced area of the window.

The problem is if you fly much at night like I do then you will not see the ice building up so I shine my flashlight (torch for Brits) every 5 mins or so at the wiper arms and the wings to check.

In temperatures below -18°c the windshield heat should be turned on if so equipped for birdstrike integrity of the front windshield. The front window is designed to withstand a 2 lbs birdstrike @ Vne 150 kts.

Hope you like flying the B-222? It sure is a nice helicopter to fly.

CC5- Like I mentioned in my previous post...ice begins to accrue
at the wipers elbow. If you have windshield Anti-ice......leave it on in the operating temp range. Do Not turn the system off.
That will only add to a potential bad situation if and when you encounter the cold stuff!
I flew UH-60's back in the old days, and we had a very complex
Blade De-ice system that allowed for symetrical shedding into known or forecasted moderate iceing. The ice was measured by a sensor wire that was out side the number two engine. So moderate was moderate to the Hawk! Even with the system working, it was very scary flying in 'moderate iceing', terrible whistleing sounds, heavy lateral vibes every few seconds caused by the shedding, and the power/airspeed ratio increasing!
The biggest fear we had was what the flight manual warned concerning heavy and severe iceing: The potential to lose autorotation capability. Having said that, with all the Blade De-ice, Engine Anti-ice/ Inlet Anti-ice and Windshield Anti-ice systems,
IMC was a regular occurance at +4 degrees or less in cloud......but still very scary. Most civil heli's cannot afford the weight penalty, let alone the cost for such systems. I think the
person that comes up with a viable system for light/medium IFR
heli's, will have reached a hero status on the same level as
Igor S!;)

I'd hate to encourage you but the large blades of the 222 handle ice much, much better than a 76 or a 61. Having flown in the Canadian north for two decades, I've had a few encounters with ice, and the worst was in the 222.

We flew into unforecast freezing rain on a black night in the far north and in the time it took us to do an immediate 180, we built up a solid 1/2 inch of clear ice on the windows. We made an immediate landing at a nearby runway, even running it on as we weren't sure about our performance (although everything seemed normal). On shutdown, the 1/2 inch was everywhere, including the main and tail rotors....smooth and clear.

A buddy though, was coming down at 2000 fpm at 100% Q at Vbroc in the same aircraft and was lucky to shed it coming though 1000' agl. That was rime icing he picked up in cloud, hoping to climb through a layer to get on top. Imagine the indigestion!

Although I avoid ice or any risk of it like the plague, and wouldn't recommend anyone go near it, answering your question, the 222 does handle it better than aircraft with smaller blades.

What altituides do you guys get around at ?

In OZ i usually aim for 10 000 feet and hope to be on top, most of the time this can get me above the weather, especialy the nasty CB's we get in the summer, and hopefully ,,,,at least,,, Im not in cloud and still trying to get around embedded charile bravos.

Usually 1000 to 2500´ sometimes up to 6000´ but its not really practical to climb high for 15 to 30 min legs.

I've got a dent in a tail rotor on a 222 from landing in a confined area on a clear day at -40C and idling for twenty minutes waiting to load our patient. When we lifted out of the hole, I was suprised to see all the fog that had formed around us (I couldn't see it while in the hole), flying out the machine gave quite a shudder and on landing we had a nice ding in the tail from shedding ice.

At 9000 feet at -29 C in a S76 we picked up so much ice the pitot heats couldn't keep up. Watch out for the tops, they are the worse.

So I've picked it up from the surface to 9000 feet, from 0 C to -40 C, and pretty much everywhere in between. I'd recommend avoiding cloud below zero, or at the very least, seriously limiting your exposure, as I've been caught a few times.

Always wanted to fly the B 222, but I dont dig the ice flying!

I IFR climbed through to 6000 (which was LSALT) at 2 degrees indicated in a UH60 when the ice detector suddenly went straight to "severe". And severe it was - I looked outside on to the leading edges of the external fuel tank support wing and fuel jug to see a layer of ice building rapidly. The ice continued to build until about 2 inches had accumulated. There was lots of vibrations as expected, and torque changes required between the anti ice and de ice systems shedding, but the stabilator kept failing due to severe ice build up and had to operated manually. This experience has given me a very healthy respect for the rapidity with which ice can build up, and the severity of the consequences of accumulation.

Now that I fly machines without anti or de ice capability, I tread very carefully. My IFR climb checks include a temperature check going through each 1000 ft. At plus 4 deg I would stop my climb where at all possible, get the copilot/crewman to begin a scan for ice build up, and we use the torch at night. Below 2 degrees, there has to be a very good reason for me to continue the flight (ie medical) and I use other routes to lower my LSALT if possible, and as a last resort now that GPS is all kosher, I will calculate my LSALT based on present position rather than over the entire route so that I only have to fly at higher alts over very short distances.

oxi: I seem to have a different philosophy than you, but I am suprised that you can get over Cumulo Bastages at only 10,000! I am assuming that you have WX Radar - thats what I will use to avoid embedded CB (apart from trying not to get airborne in the first place!!).

76 icing
 

Hey Bladestrike!!!

Last I checked, the 76A/A+/A++/C/C+...... IS NOT certified for icing conditions.

Reference..." timing your exposure".

Be it ten seconds or ten minutes, it's contradicting the RFM.

D.K

I'm well aware of the limitations in the RFM, DK, flying in cloud at those temps wasn't intentional, and I'm not endorsing it, rather to educate through my misfortunate experience.

The question is "Does all flight in cloud below 0 C constitute icing conditions?"

I've always said yes, and avoided it, at least to the best of my ability as forecasts aren't always accurate in my neck of the woods, but it seems I run into more and more guys who claim icing conditions are only those in which you actually pick up ice. in which case, you turn around or take whatever steps neccessary to leave said icing conditions. In my experience the potential for icing is too high.

My post was to answer the question of where can you pick it up, and I've picked it up in a variety of conditions, some unexpected.

Helmut fire, yes we have weather radar fitted, and I guess probably 70% of the time I can get on top at 10, most of my lowest safes are around 6 so its not tooo much further and much smooooother.

Hey DK, perhaps next time you get into inadvertant icing you can set fire to your RFM to thaw things out.
Please don't do the preaching thing at Bladestrike...its so CHC management. Very uncool.
Do some research into BS's (no offence intended :O ) history on this forum and you will see your comments are unjustified.

BS......Strong post with great advice. Despite everything printed, every Warning, Caution and Note printed for us guys to adhere to, we still have to do the job based on judgement and what info is made available...never mind the actual validity! Hell, none of us would ever get off the ground if we had perfect Met and Forecasters! Icing is probably one of the most serious met conditions to concern ones self over for pre-planning, but it also helps if you understand all there is to know that will directly effect your heli should one inadvertantly encounter such conditions! So the semantics of intentionally flying in to Known Icing is exactly that...semantical!;)
DK, and all the Weenies who are getting hot under the collar over ice....read and be fluid....don't get iced up about it....chill and be cool, be a sponge and soak up all the knowledge and evident experiance thats coming over on some of these threads!!:p
Ya'll have a nice day and Happy New Year with lots of Safe Flying and Fun!

Hi Steve76!

Sorry, not in the loop about "CHC management " thing!! Please explain?

For Helipolarbear... I've got stories too about icing up but am not going into detail. Bladestike and I seem to have the same outlook on icing but why would Steve76 and yourself make this a personal attack.?

Us "weenies " are just too slow witted to understand!

D.K

Thanks for the support guys.

I'd really like some input on my earlier question, what constitutes icing conditions? (to satisfy the RFM and lawyers)

Besides the obvious freezing precip, is it any cloud below zero or when icing is forecast or only when you actually pick up ice?

I know from experience two guys flying a few minutes apart, same altitude, same route, one can pick up ice and one won't. It's incidious stuff and waiting till you pick it up to turn around may be abit late in the game as it may have moved in behind you. Personally, I'd prefer to avoid tempting fate.

I've heard in the North Sea that its accepted as long as there is a solid "out", like 1000 foot ceilings and above freezing temps below???

If you are flying in cloud below zero, and you pick up ice, is it still considered "inadvertent"?

DK, the 'RFM' doesn't take into account every possible scenario, including inadvertant conditions. Ice in any form is a pain in the a**! It can have catastrophic results when encountered, in a very short period of time. If there are known Iceing conditions, at a profile route you wish to fly.......don't, unless you have the equipment. However, when the temp is +4 degrees, visable moisture present.......no reported iceing......it is still possible to pick up. Worse than ice is freezing rain that is rarely forecasted, but can still materialize at your flight level. The RFM is not specific about it. Just good old commom sense by the pilot!
Don't mind the term 'Weenies'......just getting a rise from you!
Nothing personal..........Have a Happy Xmas!:p

cloudchaser5, my own experiance, and those of my coleages, is that the b222 takes the ice really well. Flying in the artic, we pick it up from time to time(not intensionaly, offcourse), never experianced any trouble with vibrations and such, even when it's on the hub and blades, but as Aesir points out it get's anoying when you windshield is covered with ice..

Bell 222UT info needed!
 

Working for a company that needs LONG range and LOTS of payload...the eternal wish! :rolleyes:

Can any 222UT pilots pass on available payload when full with gas? If you could include the average fuel burn and usual TAS that would be much appreciated!

Anyone know if a B230 would be even better than a 222UT?

Many thanx for the help guys...:ok:

1980 B222 and cannibalized B222 for sale $500K (US)
4,600 Hours Airframe
Independant survey completed Dec 03
With Aux tank range 350nm + 20 minute res
130 to 145 KIAS
25 thru 600 inspections due. C of A due
Recent paint and New interior. SPIFR Wx radar

Not a 222UT or 230, but great price!:cool:

Hi Birdman.

I fly the 222U model regularly.

Operating weight including pilot is 5.900 Lbs (No fuel)
Fuel is 1670 Lbs.
AUW (Max gross) is 8250 Lbs.

This gives you about 680 Lbs (309 kg) payload with full standard tanks which give you about 3 hrs endurance or 360 Nm range with no reserve at 540 lbs fuel burn pr/hr and 120 kts IAS respectively!

Please note that our helicopters are very heavy equipped with floats, cargo hook, arctic survival gear etc etc...

I always calculate 600 Lbs fuel burn pr/hr, it gives a little extra safety margin and makes it easier to calculate.

Its a nice helicopter to fly and will handle max load with no problem (w/ LTS 101-750 engines).

I have flown lots of both the 230 and 222 and I could give you precise information but I need more precise info, like altitude and temps to be operated, and the area where you will be taking off and landing, do you need hover OGE performance? When taking off from a misson can you make a running takeoff (not saying drag the skids, just gain speed while in hover)

For example, either machines are real pigs at altitude and you can carry much more/longer in a B407. At 7,500FT, 20ºC the B230 can Take off OGE 7,750 LBS and the heli itself weighs almost 6,000 LBS, then to make matters worse every 1ºC above this temperature is 50LBS less than you can carry! But we need this performance because of the elevated rooftop helipads, maybe you have a flat surface to gain speed.

Then there is the 222SP which has B230 engines, it has slightly better performance. B230's are really hard to get, there were only 36 built, and EMS outfits are constantly searching for them.

Thanks guys! Much appreciated...we're kind of working blind here on the B222 so any info is gonna help! ;)

Blenderpilot:

We operate from sea level (with a nice long take off area) and cruise for 1hr @ 120kts at 5000' then descend to a confined pad for landing (no run on but normal appr angle). Return is at 6000'. We need to take four POB (380kg) and have floats on it too! We can strip the interior down to nothing if required and it needs to be SPIFR.

I guess we're looking for a machine that can give us 3.5hrs endurance (including reserve) and can lift close to 400kg...are we dreaming?

Hope you can find the time to send some details...once again it's really much appreciated!

Birdman.

Birdman,

Just curious, but why do you need 3.5 hours endurance given your quoted mission requirements?

Hey John,

We fly two, one hour sorties = 2.0 (No fuel at destination)
Need IFR reserves = 0.5
Fuel for a TEMPO(if reqd) = 1.0
Total fuel requirement = 3.5!

By the way, how do you think the A109E would do for this kind of mission? I've heard it's a bit thirsty, however as you have flown it, could you pass on any opinion?

Thanks!

Birdman.

109E
 

Birdman,

109E: nice fast cruise, comfortable, but little payload at the moment. Possibility of Agusta upping the MAUW to 3000kg on the cards, but with floats & SPIFR I'd doubt that you'd get the 400kg payload. Normal cruise about 145kias, burn at 6000ft would be around 205kg/hr, max fuel about 650kg (IIRC; I'm at home away from the books!).

Aircraft weight in VIP/aircon/knobs & whistles mode gives 160kg payload with full fuel. Allowing another 150kg when/if Agusta ups the MAUW will give you 310kg, plus you may save 100+kg if the aircraft were configured in utility. So, a possibility for your operation, especially since the faster cruise would reduce your trip time to c. 50 minutes, thus reducing fuel requirement to 3.2 hours. You'd have to check on the weight of the float configuration, though.

Thanks John,

Yeah I had an idea the 109E might be tight on payload at full fuel...thanks for confirming that!

:(

FYI, 109 floats weigh in at 56kg fitted.

Birdman.

Installing the aux fuel tank will give you about 308 Lbs extra fuel if I remember correctly, thats just over 30 min so it will satisfy your requirements of 3:30 fuel.

Your payload will only be around 170 Kgs on the first leg but on the 2nd leg after 1 hr flying you´ll have a 450kg payload!

Depends on your mission requirements.

Now I dont really know the B-230/B222SP but I thought it had the R-R Allison C-30 engiens, excellent engines but I have never heard of them bigger than 650 Hp !!!

The -750 engines in the U model have a 735 Hp 2.5 min limit. Is it really possible to pull more power out of the C-30 engine or is the Lycoming perhaps the more powerful option?

In terms of reliability there is absolutely no problem operating the Lycoming LTS 101, my company has 6 ea B222U models which fly thousands of hour every year for many years with no problems whatsoever, they are excellent engines after all SB´s and inspections have been complied with.
But expensive to operate, I´m sure the C-30 is cheaper to run.

Fuel capacity A109E
 

Birdman,

Now back near the books, and full Usable fuel for a 109E with both supplementary tanks is 688kg/860lt. This is for the standard 109E, the Elite has slightly less fuel available due to the re shaped rear bulkhead.

Thanks Aesir,

However we need the 380kg payload on departure from base...so can't take advantage of the fuel burn off!

Thanks John,

The A109E sounds possible if the MAUW is increased by Agusta...not holding my breath on that one tho!

:rolleyes:

If anyone has any ideas as to which machine will do the job, please feel free to offer assistance!

Birdman.

Options
 

If you can get external or internal overload tanks for a 117, it's an option. MAUW is 3350kg, expect about 2000 - 2100kg empty for a float equipped machine. Fuel burn is 220kg/hr at altitude, cruise speed about 125kias, but may drag back a bit with floats and external tanks.

So, disposable load will be about 1300kg, less 4 p.o.b. 400kg, leaves 900kg for fuel, 4hrs. Standard internal fuel is only 568kg useable, you'd need to find an extra 250kg or so of overload tank to make your 3.5hr requirement. Not difficult, there are a number of 117's around now with external tanks, and with only a few pax inside, there would be heaps of cabin or boot space to install an internal tank.

Or even an S76, for a few more dollar$ ;)

John,

Thanks again for the advice...

Any timings on the upping of the A109E's MTOW?

B222 is out due no SPIFR (says so in the flight manual) :(

Birdman.