??? Where in the world does it say that the B222U is not certified for SPIFR in the RFM :confused:

This is suprising to me and I´m sure everyone else that operates the B222U single pilot IFR.
In the RFM page 1-3 it says its certified for day-night VFR/IFR & minimum crew is one pilot seated at the right hand crew seat.

The B222 was even the first and perhaps the only helicopter certifed for IFR without AFCS! Although I would not recommend trying to fly it to much in IMC without the help from an autopilot.

Aesir,

The word about the B222 as a non-SPIFR helicopter was from our Aviation Authority here in Australia.

Apparently they did not approve it for SPIFR when there were several units operating here in Oz...and wont approve it now!

I was informed that the flight manual stated that any IFR must be two crew.

Don't understand how it can be legal in one country and not in another...

I'll chase it up again after your information...many thanks!

Birdman.

Yeahh... I figured it must be some local restrictions.. perhaps requiring 2 pilots if there is no A/P?

With a A/P the B222 is great to fly single pilot IMC. But then again I dont have much radio work or map reading where I am.

G’day Birdman,

Nearly caught up with you in Sept with Mark, didn’t quite make it…next time. ;)

As you’ve probably figured out, your request is a tall order for light twins.
You’ll probably need to go up a level…you’ve got the dough, I know, I’ve drunk some of it.

S76a+ According to my figures, and dont quote me, IFR with 60 hold (at a reduced holding rate) you need 206 mins END / 1915lbs (including 5 min stuffing around time)… short about 85lb’s

412 Classic you need 222 mins END (as above) / 2504 lbs. Including 2 X 90 gals aux tanks, still around 100 lbs short.

412 EP as above with 1 X 90 gal aux tank, around 2636lbs of fuel. Do it easy.

Now your pencil may be sharper than mine….or possibly your ops manual has some fuel ‘concession’ for the use of fixed reserve and holding time together?

Of course we're only talking about the fuel issue, dont forget about the twin engine IFR OEI performace requirements.....now in QLD, that might make for some intertesting reading....



Hope this helps.
:ok:

Hey Av8r,

Thanks for the info...I'm not sure about the unlimited funds you mention - my wage appraisal is due next month! :E

May have problems with the size of the B412EP...I'll look into the rotor diameter as anything larger (in disc area) than a B206L can be tricky...I'm guessing it will be fairly similar.

Does anyone have thoughts on the AS365N? From the company specs it seems to have the payload...not sure about SPIFR though.

Anyone from VICPOL out there that can offer some advice re payload/range at max gas?

Cheers,

Birdman.

Birdman

Maybe this helps you.

We operate the N and N2 and ours are offshore rigged, so not many luxuries.

If you take our N for example which travels 135 - 140kts at %80 which is supposedly uses the least fuel for speed.

Now our aircraft have two 10 man dinghies in the roof and of course floats, sfim coupler and ancient weather radar.

The N's are SPIFR !

Now APS is 2741kg if you were to take the three coats of paint off you would save another 10-20kg

add to that a pilot @ 90kg

MTOW is 4000kg which leaves you with 1170kg payload take 915kg fuel off that which is 3hrs 20 min worth of fuel at 270Kg/hr.

Now you have 255kg for your pax, now if you remove the unused seats and dinghies you should get close to your required payload especialy if you reduce the fuel since the N flies 15kts faster then your requirement.
Did I mention we also have Ihums and an E.L.T.

Now as I said if you take the three coats of paint off as well that will give you even more payload.

The N2 will give you another 250kg to your pax payload, because the MTOW is 4250kg.

The N2 is also sweeter to fly.

I do not have any knowledge about the N3.


I hope this gives you an Idea.


regards Brilliant Stuff :D

Brilliant Stuff....

Thanks mate! Much appreciated. The N2 sounds like a terrific device....hope to see that online!

Birdman.

Rotor diameters
 

BM,

You say that anything larger than a 206L rotor diameter could be tricky:

206L 11.28m rd, 12.96m overall
117 11.00m rd, 13.00m overall
430 12.8m rd, 15.3m overall
412 14.0m rd, 17.1m overall
365N 11.94m rd, 13.73m overall

I couldn't find anything on the 222, but didn't look too hard
;)

Awww Shucks John,

You're the best! Thanks for taking the time mate...

The good news is that you were right about the increased MGW of the A109E...via a STC on new build aircraft with a slight Vne reduction when above 2850kg.

If it's not too much to ask, could you please supply your BEW on the machine you use (without the a/c if possible!) ;)

That way i can do some numbers.

Also, if you have flown it on a hot day, how would you say she goes OEI at MGW?

Thanks mate!

Birdman.

The B222U rotor diameter is: 12,8 m and the overall length is 15,4 m.

Bell 222
 

Ok , i have read the books and spoke the folks 'in the know'

What i am trying to find out from the fellas who fly these machines is what will they lift ( isa) full fuel (1400lbs) plus how many people from a confied area / big runway
and in the case of the A model , do the engines keep blowing up or causing problems as i have been told ,

the 222a is half the price of the 222b but is it only half the helicopter? Or perhaps less than half the helicopter.

Any thoughts very welcome at this stage.

Cheers.

I don't know about LTS101 engines "blowing up" but I know they had a pretty dismal reputation when they first came out, and the equipped AStars became known as "Falling Stars". The US Coast Guard made a stink when they put them in the Dauphins (American content) and had alot of trouble, numerous hot end inspections were a pain, but they've got the bugs worked out and its actually a pretty reliable engine. The problem with the deuce (222) wasn't the engines as much as the very limited transmission. You have pretty much the same horse power as an S76a with a 3000 pound reduction in max gross, so it should kick a**, but the engines never work much over 60% of what they are capable of with the transmission rated as it is. I don't remember the numbers, its been a long time, but with an A model, full IFR/Sperry kit, full ambulance kit, two pilots, a medic and a patient, our range was down to about 1.5 hours, and thats including your reserve fuel. It depends more on the altitude and temps you are flying in whether the B is the way to go or not. In the cold climates we flew in, the difference in payload with the B wasn't worth the cost. It was a very nice aircraft to fly though, I have over 2200 hours in the deuce and the only problem I had was one engine go back to idle for a cracked P3 line.

Ok , say you have an a model , empty weight of 4920lbs ,

the usefull load is about 2900lbs according to the books

if we want 2.5 hours endurance , how many 190lb people will get off the ground?

now i know what the book says , but what did you find?

Sea level and around 10-20degrees C.

Cheers

Whatsarunway..

Wouldnt the easiest plan be to pop in and see / ring up Westair, who ran an "A" in your neck of the woods for years?

We run a quite heavy (IFR and ECS-equipped) A in the UK. It will happily fly at MAUW (7850lbs) but we only have 2334 lbs of payload. Put 2.5 hrs fuel in @550 lbs / hr, and you can carry theoretically carry 5 x 180 -pounders.

As I said, it will fly fine. The problem is getting all that weight safely airborne in the first place! However, the machine is fitted with a nice set of wheels, so find yourself a runway and you're laughing.

Engine-wise we have had no problems at all in 3+ years (touch wood). In fact, I read recently that some Astar owners were considering retro-fitting them into their ships, as Turbomeca rebuild prices were getting out of hand. Now wouldnt that be a turn-around!

The 222 is a great ship - smooth, comfortable, a joy to fly and a lot of aircraft for the money. Just remember that the first A models are nearly 25 years old now, so dont expect them to perform up to modern standards. And Bell wont want to support them for ever, so spares prices will inevitably rise as they attempt to move customers into their newer models.

The 230 has an extra 450 lbs payload (I think). And for that you will pay another $1.25m plus. Its a no-brainer. Buy3 "A" models, and you will never have to buy a spare part again!

Mmmm... Only ever flew the 222UT so don't really know what the perf. figures for nthe A/B models were .....

Most of the engine problems on the early LTS 101 engines were to do with it being a new engine that nobody knew much about and were not familier with. Having said that the engine is now reasonably mature and has worked really well in the Bk117 series for many years. It was thought at one stage that some of the problems the engine suffered in the 222 installation may have been to do with the higher gearbox output section speeds required on the 222 vs the Bk (9000 RPM Vs 6000 RPM) and the harmonics if any with vibration etc . Don't know about the USCG probs with their HH65 but I think they push them to the limits with that installation as well ....

We operate the 222U model, before fueling we have about 2400lbs of payload, the b model should be about the same I imagine. When it comes to the 222 it seems like the ones who haven't flown it keep bad talking it, while those who actually fly it can't stop praising it..

222u performance question
 

Taylor,

could you assit with a payload for isa +20 @ msl 5000 and 7000 ft. the question is part of a dinner discussion.

the eye

I haven't flown a 222 in a long time but what I remember is:

1) At gross weight you didn't vertical out of anywhere.
2) Twitchy
3) As mentioned early,because of the Xsm limit it had a high power to weight ratio so the actual OEI performance was good.
4) Think they got the engine problems sorted out, there are even some operators converting their A-Stars back to LTS 101 power.

Bell 230 info needed
 

Evening Ladies and Gents

I am hopefully getting on with a company that is using a bell 230 in the next few weeks, if all goes as advertised.

I would like to get a jump on the training and get some of the numbers and procedures into my some what limited mind. So if there is a startup check list, or emergency procedures list out there, or anything of interest, please could I get a look. Really too poor / mean to spring for buying a full POH from my own funds.

Thanks people:ok:

bell 230
 

Hello everybody
I´d appreciate anybody could give some info about bell 230
I´ve sort of been offered a job flying one of of these , and know nothing about it, the bell web page doesn´t include this model either, so any data related to this choppper would helpful.

thanks a lot.