Moon lighting plank drivers
Moon lighting plank drivers
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
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From: Downeast
Typical story.....
Company bottom line issues will win out everytime.....anyone remember the good times at Bristow when the Old Man ran it....and had the "Gardening Leave" policy? There was an example of loyalty by a Boss !!! Shame modern management can not understand that concept.
Company bottom line issues will win out everytime.....anyone remember the good times at Bristow when the Old Man ran it....and had the "Gardening Leave" policy? There was an example of loyalty by a Boss !!! Shame modern management can not understand that concept.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 149
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From: North of the Border
I've felt fustrated in the past about plank drivers coming in on their copious time off to do a little rotary time. The sad fact remains that in order to remain competitive most onshore helo operators use contract pilots. Given the choice of a high time R22 instructor with a jet banger rating and a handful of turbine hours against a plank driver with 1000 hours turbine the choice is simple.
Question is how are flight duty hours / days off affected? My guess is that they should count whether they are flying rotary or fixed wing. If that is the case, these plank guys must have a shed load of time off.
Question is how are flight duty hours / days off affected? My guess is that they should count whether they are flying rotary or fixed wing. If that is the case, these plank guys must have a shed load of time off.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 364
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From: Just over there....no there.
It does make you think when you hear about all this, I've been out of work since Christmas and I'm now on a fixed wing CPL/IR course to at least give me an option of earning some money without having to drive a lorry!
Times are damn hard at the moment out there
Times are damn hard at the moment out there
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 166
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From: N2832W8100
Its a sad state, of affairs
A slab wing can come off a modern commercial jet liner with 3000 hours and a Rotor commercial add on and still not have the same piloting and judgement skills that a 200 hour rotary pilot has, due to the hands off approach these modern airliners have, yet they are still possibly going to get a job over a 800 hour Rotary Pilot, Who can we turn to?
All Insurance companies are interested in are numbers and figures, not the reality of piloting skill involved.
Its a tuff world out there alright, made more difficult by this sort of carry on.
A slab wing can come off a modern commercial jet liner with 3000 hours and a Rotor commercial add on and still not have the same piloting and judgement skills that a 200 hour rotary pilot has, due to the hands off approach these modern airliners have, yet they are still possibly going to get a job over a 800 hour Rotary Pilot, Who can we turn to?
All Insurance companies are interested in are numbers and figures, not the reality of piloting skill involved.
Its a tuff world out there alright, made more difficult by this sort of carry on.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
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can I comment as a scum-of-the-earth plank driver?
It works both ways..........
I've seen many rotary guys come into airline flying and get a command quickly because their rotary time was counted in full towards minimum command time.
I've trained ex rotary guys for the airlines, and some were good, and some were bad.....waddya know - just the same as the fixed wing guys. What a shock.
..........what a classic!!
It works both ways..........
I've seen many rotary guys come into airline flying and get a command quickly because their rotary time was counted in full towards minimum command time.
I've trained ex rotary guys for the airlines, and some were good, and some were bad.....waddya know - just the same as the fixed wing guys. What a shock.
A slab wing can come off a modern commercial jet liner with 3000 hours and a Rotor commercial add on and still not have the same piloting and judgement skills that a 200 hour rotary pilot has
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 122
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From: floating around
So Maximum,
Are you trying to tell us that a Commercial airliner pilot who presses a few buttons takes off, leaves Autopilot on lands, turns Autopilot off and taxis to a gate at the destination, will have more skills then somebody who is able to hover around low level in confined areas, Autorotating onto a bullseye and Navigating to empty fields 100 miles away without the use of radio aids arriving within 3 mins of ETA, as well as having to be able to do all the stuff that airplanes do on the Airport?
Are you trying to tell us that a Commercial airliner pilot who presses a few buttons takes off, leaves Autopilot on lands, turns Autopilot off and taxis to a gate at the destination, will have more skills then somebody who is able to hover around low level in confined areas, Autorotating onto a bullseye and Navigating to empty fields 100 miles away without the use of radio aids arriving within 3 mins of ETA, as well as having to be able to do all the stuff that airplanes do on the Airport?
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 166
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From: N2832W8100
Maximum, I am not saying that airline Pilots have bad piloting skills, just the skills needed to fly a helo are different then the skills needed to fly a Commercial airliner.
There are good and bad in every single industry.
Its just that it is they are able to clock up hours while sitting back drinking coffee and having inflight meals, hands off the controls and they are also able to fly above most of the weather way up in the Tropopause, a lot of them have even been asleep when they are clocking up the hours,
Any Helicopter piloting hours is all hands on, so if an airline pilot says he has 3000 hours, it is completley different then a heli pilot logging 3000 hours, yet an insurance company and some employers cannot see this!!
Do you really think its fair that people who have earned the right to a decent job with half decent pay are turned down over this type of hour building?
There are good and bad in every single industry.
Its just that it is they are able to clock up hours while sitting back drinking coffee and having inflight meals, hands off the controls and they are also able to fly above most of the weather way up in the Tropopause, a lot of them have even been asleep when they are clocking up the hours,
Any Helicopter piloting hours is all hands on, so if an airline pilot says he has 3000 hours, it is completley different then a heli pilot logging 3000 hours, yet an insurance company and some employers cannot see this!!
Do you really think its fair that people who have earned the right to a decent job with half decent pay are turned down over this type of hour building?
Last edited by autosync; 29th July 2003 at 13:14.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 512
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From: Texas
Auto, that ain't necessarily so. There are a number of helicopters with full autopilot & flight director, & you just sit & watch it. I've flown a number of them.
I've been watching this thread, & just don't understand it. A pilot is a pilot. If (s)he has the required ratings, then I don't see a problem with flying any aircraft for which the rating applies. I have a fixed-wing license and a helicopter license, but I consider myself a helicopter pilot because that's what I get paid to fly. I'm also a fixed-wing pilot, and I don't think any fixed-wing drivers would bitch that much if I flew a seized-wing, as long as I had the ratings. No way any sane, competent chief pilot is going to put me in the left seat of a Gulfstream, though, even with the hours I have, because my Gulfstream time is exactly zero. And no way a sane, competent chief pilot is going to put a Gulfstream pilot with multi-thousands of hours in command of a Sikorsky when his Sikorsky hours is zero, or even likely in the hundreds. So why this argument in the first place?
I've been watching this thread, & just don't understand it. A pilot is a pilot. If (s)he has the required ratings, then I don't see a problem with flying any aircraft for which the rating applies. I have a fixed-wing license and a helicopter license, but I consider myself a helicopter pilot because that's what I get paid to fly. I'm also a fixed-wing pilot, and I don't think any fixed-wing drivers would bitch that much if I flew a seized-wing, as long as I had the ratings. No way any sane, competent chief pilot is going to put me in the left seat of a Gulfstream, though, even with the hours I have, because my Gulfstream time is exactly zero. And no way a sane, competent chief pilot is going to put a Gulfstream pilot with multi-thousands of hours in command of a Sikorsky when his Sikorsky hours is zero, or even likely in the hundreds. So why this argument in the first place?
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 166
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From: N2832W8100
So why this argument in the first place?
And besides you are not going to get onto a full auto pilot helo job nowadays without a couple of thousand of hours under your belt, Heli flying is strange, the more experience you get the easier the helicopter you get to fly is!!
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
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......I know I shouldn't get suckered into this but I can't help it.
As GLSNightPilot says, a pilot is a pilot. So why the argument in the first place? I couldn't agree more.
Watchoutbelow you say
..............now that's got to be a wind up, so I won't even rise to the bait.
autosync you say
Well, I don't know what part of the world your in, but in the North Sea for example (when there are jobs going), a co-pilot's job would be available to a low-timer before he or she would have the requisite hours for a Jetranger job, for example. Not unlike the airlines, strangely enough.
CyclicRick you say
........now that's another classic......times are hard out there for plank drivers too you know. But your logic beggars belief - it's not ok for plank drivers to take helo jobs - but it's ok for you to take a plank drivers job. Eh??
Anyway, bottom line is as I see it, if you're qualified as a professional on whatever, and someone gives you the job, then you've every right to do it, and that works in both directions.
As GLSNightPilot says, a pilot is a pilot. So why the argument in the first place? I couldn't agree more.
Watchoutbelow you say
Are you trying to tell us that a Commercial airliner pilot who presses a few buttons takes off, leaves Autopilot on lands, turns Autopilot off and taxis to a gate at the destination, will have more skills then somebody who is able to hover around low level in confined areas, Autorotating onto a bullseye and Navigating to empty fields 100 miles away without the use of radio aids arriving within 3 mins of ETA, as well as having to be able to do all the stuff that airplanes do on the Airport?
autosync you say
And besides you are not going to get onto a full auto pilot helo job nowadays without a couple of thousand of hours under your belt, Heli flying is strange, the more experience you get the easier the helicopter you get to fly is!!
CyclicRick you say
It does make you think when you hear about all this, I've been out of work since Christmas and I'm now on a fixed wing CPL/IR course to at least give me an option of earning some money without having to drive a lorry!
Anyway, bottom line is as I see it, if you're qualified as a professional on whatever, and someone gives you the job, then you've every right to do it, and that works in both directions.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 166
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From: N2832W8100
if you're qualified as a professional on whatever, and someone gives you the job, then you've every right to do it,
A lawyer cant do a doctors job, even if (S)he does an intensive couple of weeks training!
And I would like to see anyone nowadays get a north sea job with less then a thousand hours.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 16
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From: NENA
Autosync, I don't agree they are chalk and cheese at all. There are rotarys and rotarys, and there are planks and, er, planks. I got ATPLs for both, so I'm not unfamiliar with this idea.
Helos tend to be operated more autonomously, so you tend to get much more self reliant people in RW. Except that some N Sea operations are closer to airline operations than charter in a Jetranger. Equally some FW work is very hands on indeed, bush pilots, air taxi operators for instance. You just cant say they are totally different.
Both require the same core skills, the same core knowledge. Then you need the different skills to adapt to the type of work you are doing. A N Sea driver should fit right into an airline with minimum difficulty, the same would not be true of a B206 man even with 10,000hrs. However I suspect that B206 jock would convert to bush ops a damn sight easier than a B777 pilot would.
I do believe that helos develop Captaincy skills at a vastly faster rate than most - I said most- FW work simply because it is so much more intensive and varied. It irritates me no end to see airlines that factor hours rating helo time as less useful than even p2 time in a turboprop, it indicates a lack of understanding of what makes a good pilot. And those that rate fast jet hours higher than turboprops, and in some cases equal to commercial jets are truly deluded. Not due to lack of CRM or poling skills, but to an absence of any experience in any thing remotely resembling commercial operations of any kind.
Helos tend to be operated more autonomously, so you tend to get much more self reliant people in RW. Except that some N Sea operations are closer to airline operations than charter in a Jetranger. Equally some FW work is very hands on indeed, bush pilots, air taxi operators for instance. You just cant say they are totally different.
Both require the same core skills, the same core knowledge. Then you need the different skills to adapt to the type of work you are doing. A N Sea driver should fit right into an airline with minimum difficulty, the same would not be true of a B206 man even with 10,000hrs. However I suspect that B206 jock would convert to bush ops a damn sight easier than a B777 pilot would.
I do believe that helos develop Captaincy skills at a vastly faster rate than most - I said most- FW work simply because it is so much more intensive and varied. It irritates me no end to see airlines that factor hours rating helo time as less useful than even p2 time in a turboprop, it indicates a lack of understanding of what makes a good pilot. And those that rate fast jet hours higher than turboprops, and in some cases equal to commercial jets are truly deluded. Not due to lack of CRM or poling skills, but to an absence of any experience in any thing remotely resembling commercial operations of any kind.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
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[B]autosync[/B
...you're cracking me up. Interesting that you think the two worlds are as far apart as doctor is to lawyer! And there was me thinking we're all pilots!!
Go back and read my post about the North Sea - I did say "when there are jobs" - obviously in the present economic climate anyone is lucky to get a job flying anything. But historically Bristows etc have sponsored cadets who then go on to fly as co-pilots on complex helicopters in the North Sea. With very low time. They have also taken on self sponsored CPL(H)'s with less than a thousand hours. I repeat - not so very different to the airlines in that respect, although obviously the job is different. Duh.
I'm still not sure what point you're actually making. But if it's something to do with fixed wing pilots taking your job, then I re-iterate, it works both ways. And I can assure you the major flow is from rotary to fixed wing, not the other way round - but I don't have a problem with that, 'cos we're all pilots.
Anyway, your view's too simplistic - what about those who change direction in the middle of their careers or who are dual rated?
...you're cracking me up. Interesting that you think the two worlds are as far apart as doctor is to lawyer! And there was me thinking we're all pilots!!
Go back and read my post about the North Sea - I did say "when there are jobs" - obviously in the present economic climate anyone is lucky to get a job flying anything. But historically Bristows etc have sponsored cadets who then go on to fly as co-pilots on complex helicopters in the North Sea. With very low time. They have also taken on self sponsored CPL(H)'s with less than a thousand hours. I repeat - not so very different to the airlines in that respect, although obviously the job is different. Duh.
I'm still not sure what point you're actually making. But if it's something to do with fixed wing pilots taking your job, then I re-iterate, it works both ways. And I can assure you the major flow is from rotary to fixed wing, not the other way round - but I don't have a problem with that, 'cos we're all pilots.
Anyway, your view's too simplistic - what about those who change direction in the middle of their careers or who are dual rated?
Just a numbered other
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 2
From: Earth
Chance'd be a fine thing. With airlines extracting their pound of flesh by working the pilots to the legal maximum every month, there are no spare hours to moonlight with.
Your job's safe from me!
And yes, we are all pilots. Trying to claim that one discipline is somehow more valid than the other is childish. Both require generally similar skills and judgement, in varying proportions depending on the particular type or role.
Your job's safe from me!
And yes, we are all pilots. Trying to claim that one discipline is somehow more valid than the other is childish. Both require generally similar skills and judgement, in varying proportions depending on the particular type or role.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 364
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From: Just over there....no there.
Dear Maxim,
"my logic is beyond belief"? What logic, it's got nothing to do with logic it's a damn fact. I've got two estranged kids to feed and I'll do it anyway I can but my hand is forced.
All I was saying was is that you have to earn a crust anyway you can and if you have to commit treason and drive a plank then so be it but I did'nt say I liked it did I???
I would much rather sit in my pilots fan believe me.
"my logic is beyond belief"? What logic, it's got nothing to do with logic it's a damn fact. I've got two estranged kids to feed and I'll do it anyway I can but my hand is forced.
All I was saying was is that you have to earn a crust anyway you can and if you have to commit treason and drive a plank then so be it but I did'nt say I liked it did I???
I would much rather sit in my pilots fan believe me.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
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autosync
.....hats off to you, takes a big guy to admit defeat!
CyclicRick
well, I guess the plank drivers who do some helo flying like it too, (in fact, maybe they like it just as much as you do) - so what's the difference between them flying rotary and you flying fixed wing? As for putting food in our kids' mouths, as it's all about money when it comes down to it, we'd probably all be better off getting a "real" job.
.....hats off to you, takes a big guy to admit defeat!
CyclicRick
well, I guess the plank drivers who do some helo flying like it too, (in fact, maybe they like it just as much as you do) - so what's the difference between them flying rotary and you flying fixed wing? As for putting food in our kids' mouths, as it's all about money when it comes down to it, we'd probably all be better off getting a "real" job.