New R22 or go old Westland Scout
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Join Date: Oct 2002
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New R22 or go old Westland Scout
Gooday
Have just gone for my first Heli lesson and have caught the bug!
Seen some Westland Scouts that you can train in if you buy a share. Can I have any input into what you think of using this then say a R22?
Flew in the R22 and loved it but at a stageriing 230 pound an hour trying to find something a bit more cost friendly.
Not looking for a career , lucky enough to be able to just enjoy as a hobby.
Cheers
Have just gone for my first Heli lesson and have caught the bug!
Seen some Westland Scouts that you can train in if you buy a share. Can I have any input into what you think of using this then say a R22?
Flew in the R22 and loved it but at a stageriing 230 pound an hour trying to find something a bit more cost friendly.
Not looking for a career , lucky enough to be able to just enjoy as a hobby.
Cheers
You won`t be able to do your training on a Scout,as it is a Permit aircraft; in the UK anyway. Best to do the training on a Robbo, or similar,and then go for the Scout option.
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Dare I suggest that if you find 230 pounds sterling per hour "staggering" then paying for heli flying is not for you?
I can't see how an old ex-army turbine type is going to be truly cheaper than a piston-engined one that's currently in production. Apart from that, both have disadvantages. You have to be careful not to let the Scout's rpm go out of the governed range, or you might fall into a quarry as one did in the UK; and you have to have very snappy reactions if the R22's engine goes 'ahem', especially in the climb.
I can't see how an old ex-army turbine type is going to be truly cheaper than a piston-engined one that's currently in production. Apart from that, both have disadvantages. You have to be careful not to let the Scout's rpm go out of the governed range, or you might fall into a quarry as one did in the UK; and you have to have very snappy reactions if the R22's engine goes 'ahem', especially in the climb.
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There are schools in the U.S. where you can learn in the R22 or Schweizer 300 (which many, including me, feel is a better training machine than the R22) for around $200 U.S. / hour - with the exchange rate at around 1.61, that's a descent cost saving. Take you about 2-3 weeks to complete. If you can take the time off, I feel an intensive course produces better results than doing the odd day here and there - allows you to really focus and build up momentum.
Free advertising not allowed but do a search for a JAA school in Titusville (Space Coast), Florida - very professional outfit that also offer JAR PPL(H) courses - I did a JAA CPL(H) with them. You'll probably need about 5 or so more hours when you get back to be comfortable with U.K. ATC and charts.
As far as the Scout is concerned, I don't have first hand knowledge but I would suspect that although the capital purchase price is similar, the hourly rate on the Scout will be higher due to the maintenance and insurance.
Good luck.
Free advertising not allowed but do a search for a JAA school in Titusville (Space Coast), Florida - very professional outfit that also offer JAR PPL(H) courses - I did a JAA CPL(H) with them. You'll probably need about 5 or so more hours when you get back to be comfortable with U.K. ATC and charts.
As far as the Scout is concerned, I don't have first hand knowledge but I would suspect that although the capital purchase price is similar, the hourly rate on the Scout will be higher due to the maintenance and insurance.
Good luck.
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Thanks for the replies, I have been told a price per hour for the Scout is 120 pound an hour?
Does any one have any experinece flying the Scout Heli?
Due to family commitements and my wife not being too impressed going for so long and probably chasing that nice american tail I will have to do my training in UK
Does any one have any experinece flying the Scout Heli?
Due to family commitements and my wife not being too impressed going for so long and probably chasing that nice american tail I will have to do my training in UK
There is no doubt at all that a Scout will cost more to run than an R-22, end of story. The figure of £120 an hour you've seen must be a syndicate rate or something, with monthly standing charges and a share cost to start.
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Joserjetdriver,
I asked a similar question on here a couple of months back and got some interesting replies, so it is worth you searching through the old threads (and I stuck with the R22, by the way).
DBChopper
I asked a similar question on here a couple of months back and got some interesting replies, so it is worth you searching through the old threads (and I stuck with the R22, by the way).
DBChopper
As Sycamore pointed out, Scouts are Permit A/C and I don't think you are allowed to pay for training, other than continuation training (type ratings, LPCs, that sort of thing) on a Permit aircraft. I doubt there are many instructors who'd do a full PPL(H) course for free!
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Definitely go for the Robbo. You wont be able to learn on a Scout unless you buy one and even then you may have to get your ppl on a non permit to fly a/c.
Robbos might get a lot of slating by many, but you'll be surprised at how many ex mil instructors who have time on the robbo rave about it. Learn to fly Robbos and you can fly just about anything. Besides it is easier to get hold of a robbo to hire, they are more reliable than a Scout and they are much quieter. Also as yourself why someone is trying to sell a share in a Scout - because it is too expensive to maintain???
Buttline is right - go for it in an intense course but get an instructor who will finish a lesson and send you home if you are having a bad day. Shop around and see what sort of a deal you can get - most training prices in the UK are negotiable
Good luck, fly safe and have good fun
Robbos might get a lot of slating by many, but you'll be surprised at how many ex mil instructors who have time on the robbo rave about it. Learn to fly Robbos and you can fly just about anything. Besides it is easier to get hold of a robbo to hire, they are more reliable than a Scout and they are much quieter. Also as yourself why someone is trying to sell a share in a Scout - because it is too expensive to maintain???
Buttline is right - go for it in an intense course but get an instructor who will finish a lesson and send you home if you are having a bad day. Shop around and see what sort of a deal you can get - most training prices in the UK are negotiable
Good luck, fly safe and have good fun
From the learning point of view, I think you'd have enormous fun (is that the right word, Whirly ?) getting time in the schedule of the only guy in the UK who does Scout instruction, especially as it's for a PPL and for free !
I'd concur with the other advice - get on an R22, build time, read the accident reports, then go for a Scout or even an exmil Gazelle.
And IIRC running costs are of the order of £160 wet, but your investment can't be used for anything other than pleasure and there are requirements for passengers to be "crew" - which in th past has been a loosely construed term. An R22 will earn money at the right place if it's used for SFH/instruction and so on.
I'd concur with the other advice - get on an R22, build time, read the accident reports, then go for a Scout or even an exmil Gazelle.
And IIRC running costs are of the order of £160 wet, but your investment can't be used for anything other than pleasure and there are requirements for passengers to be "crew" - which in th past has been a loosely construed term. An R22 will earn money at the right place if it's used for SFH/instruction and so on.
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Actually, you can train on the Scout/Wasp on a permit but only if it is yours and not group owned. Never flown the skid equipped Scout but the Wasp on wheels is an easy aircraft to fly and train on. Engine offs like a Robbie....
Good luck and have fun whatever type of machine you fly!!
Good luck and have fun whatever type of machine you fly!!
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I've just done the annual accounts and the Scout has cost me £187 per hour for 57 hours. The big bill that beggared the average was for two replacement blades due to corrosion lifting the tabs. It would have been nearer to £150 per hour if that hadn't happened.
We've got our own bowser so the fuel is approximately 25p per litre when I fill up from home. It's 41p at most other places.
At 495 lbs burned per hour (approx 280 litres) there is a significant difference of about £45 per hour if you are using you own bowser.
We've just had a two day mountain flying course for Scouts and Wasps in Snowdonia....gatecrashed by a flashy ex-scout boy in his Gazelle. He was insufferable when paying for fuel at Caernafon. We forked out £200 a sortie ......his bill was a measly £70......and he was twice as fast into a headwind.
Our only satisfaction was that his ability to bag the best room, the centre of the helipad and a good table was that it was going to cost him a fortune in maintenance.
We've got our own bowser so the fuel is approximately 25p per litre when I fill up from home. It's 41p at most other places.
At 495 lbs burned per hour (approx 280 litres) there is a significant difference of about £45 per hour if you are using you own bowser.
We've just had a two day mountain flying course for Scouts and Wasps in Snowdonia....gatecrashed by a flashy ex-scout boy in his Gazelle. He was insufferable when paying for fuel at Caernafon. We forked out £200 a sortie ......his bill was a measly £70......and he was twice as fast into a headwind.
Our only satisfaction was that his ability to bag the best room, the centre of the helipad and a good table was that it was going to cost him a fortune in maintenance.
