Obtaining an AOC!
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: UK
Obtaining an AOC!
What is the minimum number of hours that a prospective AOC holder (Chief Pilot) requires, given all other criteria is met ie maintenance, finance etc ?
I have the basic literature from the CAA but there appears to be no mention of criteria in terms of hours.
Would appreciate any feedback.
I have the basic literature from the CAA but there appears to be no mention of criteria in terms of hours.
Would appreciate any feedback.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
There isn't minimum, or at least there never used to be. They have to ensure that you are "competent to secure a safe operation", so I'd concentrate on that.
One tip is to send your ops manual in with the application, but it probably won't be read until their first visit anyway, over a coffee. That means you can just refer them to the ops manual in the form and you don't have to fill it in twice, and it makes the process a lot quicker. Make sure the manual is neatly wordprocessed and that the whole operation gives the impression of care and attention.
email me if you have any queries
Phil
One tip is to send your ops manual in with the application, but it probably won't be read until their first visit anyway, over a coffee. That means you can just refer them to the ops manual in the form and you don't have to fill it in twice, and it makes the process a lot quicker. Make sure the manual is neatly wordprocessed and that the whole operation gives the impression of care and attention.
email me if you have any queries
Phil
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hi Flyer,
You don't mention what sort of AOC operation that you want to have, and this will make all the difference. I don't think that the CAA will specify a single minimum because what they look for would depend upon what sort of operations you want to do. Fairly obviously, you might expect the CAA to want the CP to have experience in excess of that required to be a commander for those flight types!
Other replies have also mentioned that you need to be able to show that you have the skills to do what a CP does most - move paper around efficiently
It also will help if you are known to the CAA FOIs and are reasonably well regarded with no flying skeletons.
To get an AOC under JAR-OPS you need a minimum of 2 people to be approved (excluding maintenance stuff). Normally, these would equate to the CP and the Ops Manager or similar. If one of these had certain weaknesses, say in terms of experience, I think it is reasonable for them to look at the other person's qualities as well.
The short answer though is ask them....
You don't mention what sort of AOC operation that you want to have, and this will make all the difference. I don't think that the CAA will specify a single minimum because what they look for would depend upon what sort of operations you want to do. Fairly obviously, you might expect the CAA to want the CP to have experience in excess of that required to be a commander for those flight types!
Other replies have also mentioned that you need to be able to show that you have the skills to do what a CP does most - move paper around efficiently
It also will help if you are known to the CAA FOIs and are reasonably well regarded with no flying skeletons.
To get an AOC under JAR-OPS you need a minimum of 2 people to be approved (excluding maintenance stuff). Normally, these would equate to the CP and the Ops Manager or similar. If one of these had certain weaknesses, say in terms of experience, I think it is reasonable for them to look at the other person's qualities as well.
The short answer though is ask them....
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 17
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From: the bump
Hi Flyer,
Helinut is absolutely right. To answer your question you must give us a little more info on what type of Commercial Public Transport, and on what type of aircraft you intend using. I know of one new A.O.C. that was restricted to A to A flights only (Joy Rides) until the CP had more experience. In my view this was ridiculous, how on earth could the CP get more experience if he was restricted? Sometimes a neighbouring CP or your TRE can help give cover.
In answer to your original question there are no minima for a CP under JAR OPs, there used be under CAP 360 it was at least a 1000 hours or even better an ATPLH. Before that I’m sure you had to be an ex Royal Navy Pilot! Now you only need this to be a FOI.
My advice to you is to be able to demonstrate to the powers to be, that you can do the job safely and professionally. If you want any more help please feel free to contact me.
Good luck.
Ali250
Helinut is absolutely right. To answer your question you must give us a little more info on what type of Commercial Public Transport, and on what type of aircraft you intend using. I know of one new A.O.C. that was restricted to A to A flights only (Joy Rides) until the CP had more experience. In my view this was ridiculous, how on earth could the CP get more experience if he was restricted? Sometimes a neighbouring CP or your TRE can help give cover.
In answer to your original question there are no minima for a CP under JAR OPs, there used be under CAP 360 it was at least a 1000 hours or even better an ATPLH. Before that I’m sure you had to be an ex Royal Navy Pilot! Now you only need this to be a FOI.
My advice to you is to be able to demonstrate to the powers to be, that you can do the job safely and professionally. If you want any more help please feel free to contact me.
Good luck.
Ali250
Last edited by ali250; 15th March 2003 at 22:36.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 472
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From: South of the North Pole
Some operators still fly under umbrella arrangments (ie coming under the umbrella of someone else's AOC). There are various reasons for this including cost and when the operator's ultimate owner does not hold a British passport.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 54
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From: On the seven seas
Hi Flyer
I agree with the guys before - give them a call. In Australia I have found that a good relationship with the FOI is invaluable. I have been told time and time again (after being Chief Pilot for three different EMS organisations) that they would rather you ask them questions rather than you wrongly interpreting the Regs.
In Oz, the Chief Pilot does have minimum requirements based on what type (single/multi) and how many aircraft. Over here they also ask for 12 months commercial experience to obviously give the direct exit guys from the military enough time to work in the REAL world with all of its political intricacies that come with it.
Also CASA has rules based on the way you employ the Chief Pilot. ie. must be full-time or part-time. As well CASA looks at your proposed operation to see if the Chief Pilot candidate has the relevant experience for the types of operations proposed. Also may need a flight check.
Hope this helps. Very daunting experience for first timers.
I agree with the guys before - give them a call. In Australia I have found that a good relationship with the FOI is invaluable. I have been told time and time again (after being Chief Pilot for three different EMS organisations) that they would rather you ask them questions rather than you wrongly interpreting the Regs.
In Oz, the Chief Pilot does have minimum requirements based on what type (single/multi) and how many aircraft. Over here they also ask for 12 months commercial experience to obviously give the direct exit guys from the military enough time to work in the REAL world with all of its political intricacies that come with it.
Also CASA has rules based on the way you employ the Chief Pilot. ie. must be full-time or part-time. As well CASA looks at your proposed operation to see if the Chief Pilot candidate has the relevant experience for the types of operations proposed. Also may need a flight check.
Hope this helps. Very daunting experience for first timers.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
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From: UK
You may just have some difficulty in getting anyone to talk to at the CAA. I don't know what stage you are at, but they can get a bit sniffy about talking about a new AOC operation until you have paid your £6,000++ application fee and had an FOI allocated to you. Otherwise you will have to rely upon informal contacts with an FOI, if you have any.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 814
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From: Iceland
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember anywhere in JAR-OPS 3 any referal to a "Chief pilot"!!! for AOC application.
There must be:
Accountable manager
Crew training manager
Flight operations manager
Technical manager
Quality manager
In small outfits, one person can hold more than one post.
Now of course the UK CAA can implement stricter rules than those required by JAR but really a CP is not required although most operators designate someone to be CP.
There must be:
Accountable manager
Crew training manager
Flight operations manager
Technical manager
Quality manager
In small outfits, one person can hold more than one post.
Now of course the UK CAA can implement stricter rules than those required by JAR but really a CP is not required although most operators designate someone to be CP.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
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From: UK
Aesir,
You are right about what JAR-OPS lists. On the two or three occasions that I have been involved in getting a new AOC sorted, they have said that to fulfil all those roles you need two people, as a minimum. It does not need to include a CP, but you won't get away without the nominated postholders between them covering those roles/qualifications & experience that a CP has. You can split the role and/or call it something else but (not unreasonably) all the CP skills etc have to be there somewhere. That's one of the reasons why I suggested that it would be good to know what other postholders experience was too.
You are right about what JAR-OPS lists. On the two or three occasions that I have been involved in getting a new AOC sorted, they have said that to fulfil all those roles you need two people, as a minimum. It does not need to include a CP, but you won't get away without the nominated postholders between them covering those roles/qualifications & experience that a CP has. You can split the role and/or call it something else but (not unreasonably) all the CP skills etc have to be there somewhere. That's one of the reasons why I suggested that it would be good to know what other postholders experience was too.
