New Zealand BK117 Accident
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Unlike other light twins and most of the mediums.........the BK is limited to entry and exit via the crew doors only.............jumping to and fro the back seats is precluded due to the high crew seat backs, and the general cosyness of the BK.
And of course one has to guess if there were duals fitted to a SP EMS Airframe........[I personally would have removed them so a passenger or extra crew could use the seat without any possibility of control interference]
Also where would that qualified current extra pilot come from???.....it seems that he/she was'nt required anyway.
Also to the seemless endless critics.......under some circumstances it is 100% legal to be below the LSALT over mountains on a dark night.......???......so careful chaps before you paint yourselves into that little boys corner.
And of course one has to guess if there were duals fitted to a SP EMS Airframe........[I personally would have removed them so a passenger or extra crew could use the seat without any possibility of control interference]
Also where would that qualified current extra pilot come from???.....it seems that he/she was'nt required anyway.
Also to the seemless endless critics.......under some circumstances it is 100% legal to be below the LSALT over mountains on a dark night.......???......so careful chaps before you paint yourselves into that little boys corner.
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Legal is not always desireable. I think that is where this discussion should go.
Why not have IFR capable aircraft and pilots in HEMS operations? After all, so far nobody got killed colliding with the sky.. Why deny the safe option to these crews?
And I know that cost is a factor, but should that be the overriding argument here? I think not.
Why not have IFR capable aircraft and pilots in HEMS operations? After all, so far nobody got killed colliding with the sky.. Why deny the safe option to these crews?
And I know that cost is a factor, but should that be the overriding argument here? I think not.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Non capisco niente!
Sorry Giovanni,
I don't know whether it's because it's monday morning or because I was born slow but your last post is a little too cryptic for me.
Are you by posting trying to elicit certain reactions in a less than honest way? Or are you suggesting that someone else in this thread is trying to do that?
Are you suggesting that those of us working on our CPLs should be banned from posting on this site?
Please elaborate.
Irlandés
I don't know whether it's because it's monday morning or because I was born slow but your last post is a little too cryptic for me.
Are you by posting trying to elicit certain reactions in a less than honest way? Or are you suggesting that someone else in this thread is trying to do that?
Are you suggesting that those of us working on our CPLs should be banned from posting on this site?
Please elaborate.
Irlandés
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Sasless - The last time I heard a story about "terrain, terrain" was a jetfighter mate of mine doing a rendition of the above mentioned and said that an ecjection was the only way forward.....Yes an ejection 
....Somehow it seemed relevant 
t'aint natural - don't let those atpl bullies get one over on you. They were only rattled by the fact that you knew a little more than you....Glad to see it. Hey you might just be a "PPL/H" but those out there with ATPL/H may live in fear of the only question that will pain them.....cos they can't take it....... you know who you are
Steve - Filing an IFR flight plan en- route.....Cool, but would you have thought of that with a broken hand.....
...Probably.....
It is always great after 5 pages of pprune gossip, to be able to think of the purrrrrrfekt eek: answer.......Sorry mate
The rest of you who thought you were James Bond..
LS
....Somehow it seemed relevant t'aint natural - don't let those atpl bullies get one over on you. They were only rattled by the fact that you knew a little more than you....Glad to see it. Hey you might just be a "PPL/H" but those out there with ATPL/H may live in fear of the only question that will pain them.....cos they can't take it....... you know who you are
Steve - Filing an IFR flight plan en- route.....Cool, but would you have thought of that with a broken hand.....
...Probably..... It is always great after 5 pages of pprune gossip, to be able to think of the purrrrrrfekt eek: answer.......Sorry mate
The rest of you who thought you were James Bond..
LS
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Irlandes
For heaven's sake don't be so aggressive. All Giovanni meant was anyone so minded can make themselves out to be something they're not in their profile.
As for "not too impressed by this recurring tendency of certain ppruners to turn their noses down at those of us who have less experience." I've not noticed any such "recurring tendency". On the contrary, professional pilots on this forum show infinite patience answering questions from PPLs and people like yourself working towards their CPL.
Apart from the very rare silly comment, the only time I've noticed any impatience or irritation is when a PPL comments upon an issue which relates to professional pilots and starts saying what he thinks instead of reading, learning and asking questions if necessary. This isn't the first time you've mentioned a professional/private pilot divide but, to the best of my recollection, you are the only person who claims there is.
And you've read very experienced professionals on this forum "posting absolute, mind-blowing claptrap." Sounds fun. Wish I'd seen that!
___________________________
taint natural may be a PPL, but he's also an experienced pilot and an instructor.
For heaven's sake don't be so aggressive. All Giovanni meant was anyone so minded can make themselves out to be something they're not in their profile.
As for "not too impressed by this recurring tendency of certain ppruners to turn their noses down at those of us who have less experience." I've not noticed any such "recurring tendency". On the contrary, professional pilots on this forum show infinite patience answering questions from PPLs and people like yourself working towards their CPL.
Apart from the very rare silly comment, the only time I've noticed any impatience or irritation is when a PPL comments upon an issue which relates to professional pilots and starts saying what he thinks instead of reading, learning and asking questions if necessary. This isn't the first time you've mentioned a professional/private pilot divide but, to the best of my recollection, you are the only person who claims there is.
And you've read very experienced professionals on this forum "posting absolute, mind-blowing claptrap." Sounds fun. Wish I'd seen that!
___________________________
taint natural may be a PPL, but he's also an experienced pilot and an instructor.
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Labarynth Seal,
don't get me wrong, I wasn't for one second suggesting that PPL's be discouraged from posting. God forbid! That would mean I wouldn't be able to post for at least two weeks (CPL flight test coming up!).
Irlandés
don't get me wrong, I wasn't for one second suggesting that PPL's be discouraged from posting. God forbid! That would mean I wouldn't be able to post for at least two weeks (CPL flight test coming up!).
Irlandés
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Er... excuse me?
... far be it from me to break up the bitch fight, but if I could just bring us back to the theme of the thread...
Does anybody on here know the pilot involved and is there an update on her condition? Has anyone spoken to her and are they able to shed any further light on the circumstances?
I'm not being funny, folks, but as a new boy (R22, low hours...) I kind of hoped I could read considered opinions and insight into rotary flight around the world. Did I get the wrong site?
Just wondered (dives out of the ring before the bell goes again)
Does anybody on here know the pilot involved and is there an update on her condition? Has anyone spoken to her and are they able to shed any further light on the circumstances?
I'm not being funny, folks, but as a new boy (R22, low hours...) I kind of hoped I could read considered opinions and insight into rotary flight around the world. Did I get the wrong site?
Just wondered (dives out of the ring before the bell goes again)
beak to beaks
DB....if you want some really enlightening discourse upon helicoptering....look up a site called Just Helicopters....you will soon be back here breathing a sigh of relief! At the best of times...JH reeks of a Gulf of Mexico crewroom circa....1972 or so....in the days of poor pay, poor working conditions, poor management, poor digs, and really poor attitudes......at nowadays the pay is better. The lads here might get a bit snippy at times but at least they do it with small bit of decorum. The mods here at least have a sense of humour....unlike JetBlast's reigning king!
Follow-up to BK117 CFIT accident in NZ.
http://www.taic.org.nz/aviation/03-001.pdf
http://www.taic.org.nz/aviation/abst...00.html#03-001
Well team, this is an INTERESTING read. I suggest you take the time to peruse all the PDF as it is very informative. The description of the flight starts on page 9 of the PDF.
The long and the short of it all is:
Pilot overflew waypoint in below VFR conditions in an area of mountainous terrain and initiated climb in IFR conditions to known safe altitude.
While climbing contacted terrain and damaged herself and aircraft. Managed to recover unusual attitude and divert to an aerodrome nearby.
Hovered for 1.5hrs with badly injured hand.
Of interest was the lack of formal rules for the night route that was being used.
Locally here in Canada our SOP's call for 1000ft above highest obstacle within 3nm and 500ft from cloud.
In this instance the flight was planned at 2500 and the investigators hint that 5000 may've been a better altitude.
There is plenty to learn in this one. Enjoy the read.
Steve76
http://www.taic.org.nz/aviation/abst...00.html#03-001
Well team, this is an INTERESTING read. I suggest you take the time to peruse all the PDF as it is very informative. The description of the flight starts on page 9 of the PDF.
The long and the short of it all is:
Pilot overflew waypoint in below VFR conditions in an area of mountainous terrain and initiated climb in IFR conditions to known safe altitude.
While climbing contacted terrain and damaged herself and aircraft. Managed to recover unusual attitude and divert to an aerodrome nearby.
Hovered for 1.5hrs with badly injured hand.
Of interest was the lack of formal rules for the night route that was being used.
Locally here in Canada our SOP's call for 1000ft above highest obstacle within 3nm and 500ft from cloud.
In this instance the flight was planned at 2500 and the investigators hint that 5000 may've been a better altitude.
There is plenty to learn in this one. Enjoy the read.
Steve76
Last edited by Steve76; 22nd Sep 2003 at 05:07.
My hat is tipped to that Lady! To hit something hard at night and in cloud and rise to the occasion speaks well of her. Before you criticize her....walk a mile in her shoes first. She was out there doing the work in some very challenging conditions. Too many of us could have found ourselves in the same predicament. (If you will be honest with yourself.....anyway!)
As I said before when this was being discussed....she is welcome at my end of the bar anytime....and I will buy! I will gladly fly with her anytime.
No matter what you think.....the final analysis revolves around what you do when it all goes wobbly....and that bit of excitement is more than I ever wish to experience.
As I said before when this was being discussed....she is welcome at my end of the bar anytime....and I will buy! I will gladly fly with her anytime.
No matter what you think.....the final analysis revolves around what you do when it all goes wobbly....and that bit of excitement is more than I ever wish to experience.
This person did a sterling job in recovering from her predicament, and a pat on the back is most certainly deserved.
Lessons learned:
1. Sometimes using one's superior talents to get out of a sticky situation, could just be those very same talents that put one into it in the first place
2. If there has to be a criticism in this, can I suggest that perhaps pilots need to be s**t hot on the ground (while planning the task) too
This has the making of a film, methinks........
Lessons learned:
1. Sometimes using one's superior talents to get out of a sticky situation, could just be those very same talents that put one into it in the first place
2. If there has to be a criticism in this, can I suggest that perhaps pilots need to be s**t hot on the ground (while planning the task) too
This has the making of a film, methinks........
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I agree with all the previous posts - a report that every helicopter pilot who flies at night should read. It would be easy for any of us to get in a similar situation. It is in similar "territory" to the recently-reported Strathclyde Police EC135 crash.
It may be possible to do more night helicopter flights IFR (I mean proper IFR here, not the bastardised "IFR"/visual contact/low-level flying that UK Rules of the Air allow/require as a substitute for night VFR which is prohibited here). However, some of this flying really needs to be low level and below the MSA if it is to be of any use (e.g. police flying).
If you are low level at night and relying on visual contact (for nav and to maintain terrain separation), the risk of inadvertent IMC is always there. Even an IR rated pilot with a full IFR aircraft can be in poor shape if he goes "inadvertent" in these circumstances. It is a whole different ball-game from a flight conducted "proper" IFR and above the MSA.
It may be possible to do more night helicopter flights IFR (I mean proper IFR here, not the bastardised "IFR"/visual contact/low-level flying that UK Rules of the Air allow/require as a substitute for night VFR which is prohibited here). However, some of this flying really needs to be low level and below the MSA if it is to be of any use (e.g. police flying).
If you are low level at night and relying on visual contact (for nav and to maintain terrain separation), the risk of inadvertent IMC is always there. Even an IR rated pilot with a full IFR aircraft can be in poor shape if he goes "inadvertent" in these circumstances. It is a whole different ball-game from a flight conducted "proper" IFR and above the MSA.
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What a story! I am reminded of the audio tape I heard once with a US Army Cobra crew who went into cloud and lost ground reference. A whole lot of "You got it!" shouts and a lost set of skids were all documented in hilarious (black humor-wise) detail!
The need for all of us to call for EGPWS (Enhanced ground Proximity Warning Device) has never been clearer.
here is the Honeywell web site that describes it:
http://www.egpws.com/
I am told that a very effective BAE TERPROM is also available for military users.
http://www.terprom.com/
For all the talk about how to autorotate, and how many engines a given helo needs, the fact is that the dirt is what gets us, to the tune of about 40% of all helo accidents.
The need for all of us to call for EGPWS (Enhanced ground Proximity Warning Device) has never been clearer.
here is the Honeywell web site that describes it:
http://www.egpws.com/
I am told that a very effective BAE TERPROM is also available for military users.
http://www.terprom.com/
For all the talk about how to autorotate, and how many engines a given helo needs, the fact is that the dirt is what gets us, to the tune of about 40% of all helo accidents.
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No doubt that the flying after hitting the trees was pretty outstanding and indeed heroic. But to have avoided the drama in the first place, would it not have been more sensible to have turned onto a reciprocal track, which had already been safely covered at 2500ft, before starting the climb into IMC? Once MSA was achieved, track to destination could have been safely resumed. Clearly endurance was no problem. Only luck prevented this being a fatal wipe out. The best approach was presumably IFR all the way, but I guess the lack of an autopilot meant the acft was not S/P IFR approved.
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As Rotorspeed said, she did a fantastic job after hitting the trees but surely she shouldn't have hit the trees in the first place. She has over 6000 hours, so is very experienced. We all know single pilot night vfr flight over/around/through mountains under,
/near/through cloud is bloody difficult, not to mention very high in the pukka factor.
With these sort of EMS or SAR flights, the hardest decision is usually not being able to say "NO" when you should. Hence the importance of flight planning.
/near/through cloud is bloody difficult, not to mention very high in the pukka factor.
With these sort of EMS or SAR flights, the hardest decision is usually not being able to say "NO" when you should. Hence the importance of flight planning.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Before anyone takes a pop at me, I have not had time to read all the posts on this thread, but Whatever happened this heli had a collision with some trees which caused considerable damage to both Heli and crew.
The outcome speaks volumes for the tenacity of this lady pilot, we can all read some very harsh comment from people who profess to know what they are saying, and say they are near to and know all the facts, the fact is for some of you quick to blame jockeys, is this young lady made contact with something that could have been fatal, she kept her nerve and allowed her brain and training allied with experience to get to the best outcome possible, she may be at fault, but how many of you out there are willing to cast the first stone, with the exception of Granny that is, we already know which way he is going! sad person
The outcome speaks volumes for the tenacity of this lady pilot, we can all read some very harsh comment from people who profess to know what they are saying, and say they are near to and know all the facts, the fact is for some of you quick to blame jockeys, is this young lady made contact with something that could have been fatal, she kept her nerve and allowed her brain and training allied with experience to get to the best outcome possible, she may be at fault, but how many of you out there are willing to cast the first stone, with the exception of Granny that is, we already know which way he is going! sad person
