Deck landings
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 690
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Go-Around: The big issue with the 'West Navion' was that the DPS failed and the drillship effectively rotated around the heavy submerged drill sting - so its not not directly relavent to an underway tanker.
There was some pretty disgusting abuse hurled at the crew by Flight International's 'expert' who suggested they should have been lashed down on deck (!!) which I'm glad to say was stamped on by several letter writers (including the AAIB).
There was some pretty disgusting abuse hurled at the crew by Flight International's 'expert' who suggested they should have been lashed down on deck (!!) which I'm glad to say was stamped on by several letter writers (including the AAIB).
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 361
Likes: 10
From: UK
Sorry to be a bore chaps, theres been a lot of good advice so far on this matter regarding techniques; things that will bite you in the arse etc, however have you considered a few reference publications?
I've also listed a few questions the lawyers will use to try and take your children's inheritance away with:
Did the pilot study CAP 437 Offshore landing Areas Chapter 9 (Vessels) and/or the International Chamber of shipping Guide to Helo/Ship Ops?.
Who is the owning oil company, have they surveyed the helo deck recently and is the helo insurance cover sufficient ? current rates for offshore vessels fully laden plus environmental damages are astronomical.
Did the pilot contact BHAB for advice ?, they might hold a deck survey of the vessel concerned.
Watch out for the flying avoid North of Alexandria Airport over the Mil Academy/Hospital if you are operating that way.
If you are flying pax, are you offshore equipped/floats/ELTs etc?
I said sorry to be a bore, I'm not a lawyer, just a WAFU trying to keep you out of trouble...........enjoy it....
I've also listed a few questions the lawyers will use to try and take your children's inheritance away with:
Did the pilot study CAP 437 Offshore landing Areas Chapter 9 (Vessels) and/or the International Chamber of shipping Guide to Helo/Ship Ops?.
Who is the owning oil company, have they surveyed the helo deck recently and is the helo insurance cover sufficient ? current rates for offshore vessels fully laden plus environmental damages are astronomical.
Did the pilot contact BHAB for advice ?, they might hold a deck survey of the vessel concerned.
Watch out for the flying avoid North of Alexandria Airport over the Mil Academy/Hospital if you are operating that way.
If you are flying pax, are you offshore equipped/floats/ELTs etc?
I said sorry to be a bore, I'm not a lawyer, just a WAFU trying to keep you out of trouble...........enjoy it....
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,913
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From: London
The knowledge and experience on this forum never ceases to amaze me. I'm only a PPL, so I can only daydream about attempting a deck landing, but reading the advice is fascinating.
BTW, peterperfect's legal advice is good.
Tudor Owen
BTW, peterperfect's legal advice is good.
Tudor Owen
Iconoclast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
From: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
When everything goes wrong!!!!!
A friend of mine sent me a miniature movie. It shows a CH-46 coming in very fast to a landing on the deck of a ship (Perhaps an LHA). He approaches the deck at an angle instead of coming to a hover in line with the ships centerline and then moving sideways keeping in line with the ships centerline. His nose gear hit hard and either he bounced or he pulled collective and tried to align with the centerline of his parking space.
In the process he came to a hover with half of his discs over the flight deck and half over the water. As a result he rolled to the left and fell over backwards into the water hitting upside down. It ended there with two high-speed boats heading for the impact point. I have no idea if there was any loss of life. I’m sorry I do not have the URL.
Shown below [ was an ] URL that shows what can go wrong if the flight deck crew is slightly out of position.
Lu
All good stuff, but the next part confuses me:
I agree the photos are gruesome.
I agree anyone with a queasy stomache shouldn't view them
You say someone stole them from an official US Navy accident investigation, and they were posted on an internet site populated by a bunch of idiots
I agree with your hope the US Navy JAG determines who took the photos and hangs his ass out to dry.
What I don't understand is why, in all those circumstances, you could posibly think it's OK to post a link to that sick website and the photos here.
I'm deleting the link for all the reasons you've given and one more: Respect for the dead man, his family and former colleagues.
I think members of this forum will be able to imagine what happens if a deck crewman is struck by the blades.
Heliport
In the process he came to a hover with half of his discs over the flight deck and half over the water. As a result he rolled to the left and fell over backwards into the water hitting upside down. It ended there with two high-speed boats heading for the impact point. I have no idea if there was any loss of life. I’m sorry I do not have the URL.
Shown below [ was an ] URL that shows what can go wrong if the flight deck crew is slightly out of position.
Lu
All good stuff, but the next part confuses me:
I agree the photos are gruesome.
I agree anyone with a queasy stomache shouldn't view them
You say someone stole them from an official US Navy accident investigation, and they were posted on an internet site populated by a bunch of idiots
I agree with your hope the US Navy JAG determines who took the photos and hangs his ass out to dry.
What I don't understand is why, in all those circumstances, you could posibly think it's OK to post a link to that sick website and the photos here.
I'm deleting the link for all the reasons you've given and one more: Respect for the dead man, his family and former colleagues.
I think members of this forum will be able to imagine what happens if a deck crewman is struck by the blades.
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 23rd January 2003 at 19:42.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 153
Likes: 5
From: Sydney, Oz.
6 Marines and one sailor died. The Sea Knight sank after about 40 seconds, and eventually settled on the ocean floor.
The Marines were preparing to rope down onto the deck.
All the crew survived.
Basically it came down to coming in to low and too fast.
The Marines were preparing to rope down onto the deck.
All the crew survived.
Basically it came down to coming in to low and too fast.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 512
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Lu, I've made a number of landings on seismic boats & other vessels with the heliport on the stern. IME, coming in at an angle is the only proper way to do it. You stay out of the turbulence at the stern caused by the wind coming over the ship, and it's just easier for me. The last time I ever tried to land from dead astern was when I tried to do it at night, & the lights on the stern completely blinded me. I don't like coming to a hover & then moving sideways. I do it if it's the only way to land, & it sometimes is on offshore rigs with the heliport on the downwind side & obstacles all around, but not if I have any choice. It just requires too much power to do the hover, & if an engine fails, you're going to be very, very busy.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Heliport.....
I have seen loads of US Navy flightdeck films of accidents....and some of them are very gruesome....guys walking into spinning props....one of a guy being sucked into an intake. They are shown on national television and at safety seminars. The Navy films all flight deck operations for good reason.....to show people what happens when things go awry.....to reinforce the need for following good safe operating practices.
The famous USS Forrestal fire films show a legless man crawling up the flight deck after the initial explosion and identifys him by name.
We have all watched linked videos of the SH-3 that lost its tail rotor on approach to a frigate in the Persian Gulf last year. We view the gory films of the Italian flight team crash at the air show.....how is this one any more repugnant than the others?
We are all mature adults (well most of us are anyway) and most live with those kinds of risks daily. Sometimes a bit of reality therapy can be beneficial....it sure takes the discussion of safety out of the theoretical and puts it into heart stopping reality.
Ol' Lu sures seems to be a lightning rod at times.
How do we draw the line between what is "acceptable" and what is "unacceptable" when we make our submissions becomes the question. If we are going to be concerned about the poor deceased's next of kin.....maybe we should ban all discussion of accidents and incidents......as well as protecting the self image of the pilots involved in such things that survive the event.
Lets stick to abstract theoretical discussions of air pressures under rotor blades while in ground effect during autorotation and avoid talk of accidents and incidents which result in injury or death to humans. Heaven knows....knowing more about ground effect in autorotation might help me steer clear of a dangerous situation that could lead to an accident.
I have seen loads of US Navy flightdeck films of accidents....and some of them are very gruesome....guys walking into spinning props....one of a guy being sucked into an intake. They are shown on national television and at safety seminars. The Navy films all flight deck operations for good reason.....to show people what happens when things go awry.....to reinforce the need for following good safe operating practices.
The famous USS Forrestal fire films show a legless man crawling up the flight deck after the initial explosion and identifys him by name.
We have all watched linked videos of the SH-3 that lost its tail rotor on approach to a frigate in the Persian Gulf last year. We view the gory films of the Italian flight team crash at the air show.....how is this one any more repugnant than the others?
We are all mature adults (well most of us are anyway) and most live with those kinds of risks daily. Sometimes a bit of reality therapy can be beneficial....it sure takes the discussion of safety out of the theoretical and puts it into heart stopping reality.
Ol' Lu sures seems to be a lightning rod at times.
How do we draw the line between what is "acceptable" and what is "unacceptable" when we make our submissions becomes the question. If we are going to be concerned about the poor deceased's next of kin.....maybe we should ban all discussion of accidents and incidents......as well as protecting the self image of the pilots involved in such things that survive the event.
Lets stick to abstract theoretical discussions of air pressures under rotor blades while in ground effect during autorotation and avoid talk of accidents and incidents which result in injury or death to humans. Heaven knows....knowing more about ground effect in autorotation might help me steer clear of a dangerous situation that could lead to an accident.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 361
Likes: 10
From: UK
Hey guys,
Most procedures and practices involving safe deck ops revolve around poor adherence to lessons learned elsewhere, spread the wealth and everyone benefits; even if it is graphic......
The first thread asked for advice about preventing mishaps to decks, by asking those with experience to contribute. Lets focus on providing advice......we all know the toughest call in aviation is often asking the damn question, lets answer it !!!
Most procedures and practices involving safe deck ops revolve around poor adherence to lessons learned elsewhere, spread the wealth and everyone benefits; even if it is graphic......
The first thread asked for advice about preventing mishaps to decks, by asking those with experience to contribute. Lets focus on providing advice......we all know the toughest call in aviation is often asking the damn question, lets answer it !!!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere in UK
If you are going to hover alongside the ship before landing (waiting for the ships quiescent period) - wait for the 7th wave and the flight deck should steady up, maybe to even within limits!
It does work honest
It does work honest
Iconoclast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
From: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Let's learn from the bears.
Probably the best system devised for landing on a pitching deck is the Bear Trap developed by the Canadians and used on all of the Spruance Class Destroyers in the US Navy. In this system the helicopter is winched down to the deck. The American system further expanded on the design and uses the bear trap as a trolley and it drags the helicopter into the flight deck hangar freeing up the flight deck for the second helicopter.
The system as originally designed, (when I was involved), would compensate for pitching and heaving of the flight deck. When the stern went down the cable would be paid out and when it went up the cable would be reefed in so that the helicopter would be independent of the ships motion. In each case the cable would be reefed in more than it was paid out and eventually the helicopter would be pulled down to the deck.
The system as originally designed, (when I was involved), would compensate for pitching and heaving of the flight deck. When the stern went down the cable would be paid out and when it went up the cable would be reefed in so that the helicopter would be independent of the ships motion. In each case the cable would be reefed in more than it was paid out and eventually the helicopter would be pulled down to the deck.
