Police officers 'Commandeering' civ helos - opinion?
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In the UK..
Is this legal?
NOT UNLESS YOU HAVE AN AOC AND A COMMERCIAL LICENCE
If the A/C crashed, what would the insurance position be?
PROVIDED ABOVE YOU SHOULD BE OK PROVIDED YOU WERE OPERATING WITHIN THE ANO RULES
Is the Police officer, who is not a trained air observer but effectively co ordinating the search, in any sort of position? ( This is notwithstanding the primacy of the pilot)
NONE WHATSOEVER - TALKING BALLAST ONLY..AND HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO USE HIS PERSONAL COMMS IN THE AIR EITHER.
There is a get out in the ANO which permits you as a pilot to do almost anything for the purposes of "Saving Life" but I would suggest great care in taking on an Ad Hoc task unless you are VERY sure of the circumstances.
NOT UNLESS YOU HAVE AN AOC AND A COMMERCIAL LICENCE
If the A/C crashed, what would the insurance position be?
PROVIDED ABOVE YOU SHOULD BE OK PROVIDED YOU WERE OPERATING WITHIN THE ANO RULES
Is the Police officer, who is not a trained air observer but effectively co ordinating the search, in any sort of position? ( This is notwithstanding the primacy of the pilot)
NONE WHATSOEVER - TALKING BALLAST ONLY..AND HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO USE HIS PERSONAL COMMS IN THE AIR EITHER.
There is a get out in the ANO which permits you as a pilot to do almost anything for the purposes of "Saving Life" but I would suggest great care in taking on an Ad Hoc task unless you are VERY sure of the circumstances.
TC and MBJ
Before we leap to the attack of Sky Watch please recall some of the things that they say of themselves. Most of them appear above in their own words.
The CAA has looked and is [reasonably] happy.
The group [and in 150 souls there may be black sheep] are actually talking about being good citizens and having a look out of the window as they fly [thats probably a good idea at the best of times] and if they see something reporting it via ATC.
No more than that 98% of the time.
The remainder is to take interest in what information they receive from the media [or whatever] and to look out of the window with that in mind - usually using an observer to do that.
No hot lines, just the same as if a fire engine cop car or ambulance turned up at the house opposite me ... and what ... I ignore it? No - and neither would you. Taking it a step further ... a search for a missing child... if Joe Public turns up to search on the ground on foot or in a car who is complaining?
OK so ...... Sky Watch have aeroplanes, and it seems a set of rules that tell them to scoot when PLOD turns up....
North Yorkshire [where the core of Sky Watch is based] do not.
Before we leap to the attack of Sky Watch please recall some of the things that they say of themselves. Most of them appear above in their own words.
The CAA has looked and is [reasonably] happy.
The group [and in 150 souls there may be black sheep] are actually talking about being good citizens and having a look out of the window as they fly [thats probably a good idea at the best of times] and if they see something reporting it via ATC.
No more than that 98% of the time.
The remainder is to take interest in what information they receive from the media [or whatever] and to look out of the window with that in mind - usually using an observer to do that.
No hot lines, just the same as if a fire engine cop car or ambulance turned up at the house opposite me ... and what ... I ignore it? No - and neither would you. Taking it a step further ... a search for a missing child... if Joe Public turns up to search on the ground on foot or in a car who is complaining?
OK so ...... Sky Watch have aeroplanes, and it seems a set of rules that tell them to scoot when PLOD turns up....
North Yorkshire [where the core of Sky Watch is based] do not.
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Have I got this right or do I detect a touch of bitterness and the presence of a few chips on the shoulders.......
It seems that there are those supposedly professional pilots who would instantly ban any activity that might detract from their paid work and at a stroke elect to double their pay because they think they are worth it. (find the evidence in many other threads)
It all seems very sad.
Of course professionals are trained appropriately (hopefully) to do a job with whistles and bells kit and may they long continue with their valuable role. However, if for some remarkable reason I am the only pilot around and mine is the only aircraft able to help and I receive a specific request to help in a life threatening event, then subject to making decisions about conditions and my own limitations as a pilot and the limitations of my aircraft, then I would respond to the best that circumstances and my ability allows until other help arrives. (Just as if you are at the scene of a car crash or a fire etc). And no I would not expect payment, but then it would probably be a once in a lifetime event, so the incurred cost is no big deal.
By the geographic nature of UK, it is not far from anywhere to here so the times when this kind of event might happen are going to be rare. Why people should get their knickers in a twist over this whole issue beats me.
If I wanted to fly in a Police / EMS / military role, I would have taken the appropriate career path. I chose a route thru life that now allows me to fly an aircraft for my personal use. At no time do I wish to be involved in the above type operations. However just as I have no wish to fight fires or be a paramedic at the scene of an accident, one is bound by a sense of duty to fellow 'man' to do the best in an awful situation.
Do we hear paramedics complain when you have just spent 10 minutes trying to stem the blood loss from a severed artery.
The air law is right to require higher levels of competancy etc for "professional" operations in the air...........but I do wish some people would quit their whinging and grow up !
It seems that there are those supposedly professional pilots who would instantly ban any activity that might detract from their paid work and at a stroke elect to double their pay because they think they are worth it. (find the evidence in many other threads)
It all seems very sad.
Of course professionals are trained appropriately (hopefully) to do a job with whistles and bells kit and may they long continue with their valuable role. However, if for some remarkable reason I am the only pilot around and mine is the only aircraft able to help and I receive a specific request to help in a life threatening event, then subject to making decisions about conditions and my own limitations as a pilot and the limitations of my aircraft, then I would respond to the best that circumstances and my ability allows until other help arrives. (Just as if you are at the scene of a car crash or a fire etc). And no I would not expect payment, but then it would probably be a once in a lifetime event, so the incurred cost is no big deal.
By the geographic nature of UK, it is not far from anywhere to here so the times when this kind of event might happen are going to be rare. Why people should get their knickers in a twist over this whole issue beats me.
If I wanted to fly in a Police / EMS / military role, I would have taken the appropriate career path. I chose a route thru life that now allows me to fly an aircraft for my personal use. At no time do I wish to be involved in the above type operations. However just as I have no wish to fight fires or be a paramedic at the scene of an accident, one is bound by a sense of duty to fellow 'man' to do the best in an awful situation.
Do we hear paramedics complain when you have just spent 10 minutes trying to stem the blood loss from a severed artery.
The air law is right to require higher levels of competancy etc for "professional" operations in the air...........but I do wish some people would quit their whinging and grow up !
Last edited by bladeslapper; 9th Dec 2002 at 10:56.
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I spoke to Arnold Parker today, and I think he needs recognition as a bit of a pioneer!
The trials with N yorks went quite well, but the whole issue of AOC's and insurance put a nail in the carriage of police officers - which answers my original post!
However, the general idea now is that it is a few extra pairs of eyes and ears either on routine flights (eg over large expanses of estuaries where people are known to get stuck) or, in response to general information from the emergency services. Even then, the police, for example cannot ask for specific help as that could be construed to be procuring the use of an aircraft.
Other groups, such as radio hams, can provide services in extreme circs. Why not aircraft owners? To me, the sensible thing to do would be to bring them under some sort of control. An asset is an asset whatever way you look at it.
The trials with N yorks went quite well, but the whole issue of AOC's and insurance put a nail in the carriage of police officers - which answers my original post!
However, the general idea now is that it is a few extra pairs of eyes and ears either on routine flights (eg over large expanses of estuaries where people are known to get stuck) or, in response to general information from the emergency services. Even then, the police, for example cannot ask for specific help as that could be construed to be procuring the use of an aircraft.
Other groups, such as radio hams, can provide services in extreme circs. Why not aircraft owners? To me, the sensible thing to do would be to bring them under some sort of control. An asset is an asset whatever way you look at it.
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T.C.
You appear very touchy and anti skywatch.....I know little / nothing about skywatch, not a member and so comment no further on their activities.
I think you missed my point which was that one would be duty bound subject to the caveats I gave, to respond to a SPECIFIC request. That specific request would clearly be a route of last resort (life at risk) and therefore such a request would need to be qualified in what was required and how it would be carried out. In those RARE (I used that word in my text) circumstances then anything is better than nothing !
Knowing about search patterns, use of particular radio nets etc etc etc is quite superfluous in these circumstances.
Having said that it would perhaps be interesting for someone of your experience and knowledge to expand on the clearly complex subject of your aerial role to quell the cynical voices in earlier submissions to the thread.
You appear very touchy and anti skywatch.....I know little / nothing about skywatch, not a member and so comment no further on their activities.
I think you missed my point which was that one would be duty bound subject to the caveats I gave, to respond to a SPECIFIC request. That specific request would clearly be a route of last resort (life at risk) and therefore such a request would need to be qualified in what was required and how it would be carried out. In those RARE (I used that word in my text) circumstances then anything is better than nothing !
Knowing about search patterns, use of particular radio nets etc etc etc is quite superfluous in these circumstances.
Having said that it would perhaps be interesting for someone of your experience and knowledge to expand on the clearly complex subject of your aerial role to quell the cynical voices in earlier submissions to the thread.
Urm, well I think Skywatch is a good initiative.
As for the Home Office and their opinions/statements etc;
1) Skywatch is a superb idea so they were bound not to like it
2) They wouldn't know a good idea if it slapped them in the face
3) North Yorks Police don't have enough funding to warrant a heli and yet have to cover a massive area of varying terrain and population densities so any extra help they could get FOR FREE has to be a good idea. The Home Office could even give a bit of extra funding so the pilots could have seminars etc on effective procedures/training. Such funding is bound to be well below the cost of a helo unit.
But hey, lets wrap everything in big Labour Red tape.
Aviation without politics would be bliss but boring.
As for the Home Office and their opinions/statements etc;
1) Skywatch is a superb idea so they were bound not to like it
2) They wouldn't know a good idea if it slapped them in the face
3) North Yorks Police don't have enough funding to warrant a heli and yet have to cover a massive area of varying terrain and population densities so any extra help they could get FOR FREE has to be a good idea. The Home Office could even give a bit of extra funding so the pilots could have seminars etc on effective procedures/training. Such funding is bound to be well below the cost of a helo unit.
But hey, lets wrap everything in big Labour Red tape.
Aviation without politics would be bliss but boring.
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Sky Watch
1. Thank you for all the interest in our initiative.
2. Sky Watch's main operations are limited to "Observe & Report" - calling in any incidents to ATC for a 999 call to emergency services - and then clearing off once the professionals have the matter in hand.
3. Sky Watch's contribution has proved helpful, with commendations from the police, fire service and coastguard.
4. If anyone would like a list of the incidents we have helped out with, e-mail your post address to [email protected]
5. Sky Watch pilots are very experienced - we've lots of ATPL., Commercial, CFI's, Instructors, ex-military, etc. - and more Instrument and IMC ratings than you can shake a stick at. Our aircraft range from gyrocopters and microlights through to helicopters and executive jets.
6. Sky Watch works to a manual produced from contributions by experts of RAF Search & Rescue, police air units, military, Channel Islands Air Search, etc.
7. Sky Watch has been appointed the Air Division of Sea Safety, the consortium of voluntary marine organisations.
8. Sky Watch is in the process of obtaining "Declared Facility" status via Coastguard and Sea Safety.
9. Pilots mainly join Sky Watch because they feel that being able to fly means they have been blessed with more of life's good stuff than most people - and they see Sky Watch as a way of paying a bit back.
10. Sky Watch has proved that it is possible for simple light aircraft to make a practical contribution to the community, and for some simple air tasks a £3m /£2,000 an hour helicopter is not strictly necessary.
11. Sky Watch has every respect and support for the professional air units.
Kind regards
Arnold Parker - Sky Watch
2. Sky Watch's main operations are limited to "Observe & Report" - calling in any incidents to ATC for a 999 call to emergency services - and then clearing off once the professionals have the matter in hand.
3. Sky Watch's contribution has proved helpful, with commendations from the police, fire service and coastguard.
4. If anyone would like a list of the incidents we have helped out with, e-mail your post address to [email protected]
5. Sky Watch pilots are very experienced - we've lots of ATPL., Commercial, CFI's, Instructors, ex-military, etc. - and more Instrument and IMC ratings than you can shake a stick at. Our aircraft range from gyrocopters and microlights through to helicopters and executive jets.
6. Sky Watch works to a manual produced from contributions by experts of RAF Search & Rescue, police air units, military, Channel Islands Air Search, etc.
7. Sky Watch has been appointed the Air Division of Sea Safety, the consortium of voluntary marine organisations.
8. Sky Watch is in the process of obtaining "Declared Facility" status via Coastguard and Sea Safety.
9. Pilots mainly join Sky Watch because they feel that being able to fly means they have been blessed with more of life's good stuff than most people - and they see Sky Watch as a way of paying a bit back.
10. Sky Watch has proved that it is possible for simple light aircraft to make a practical contribution to the community, and for some simple air tasks a £3m /£2,000 an hour helicopter is not strictly necessary.
11. Sky Watch has every respect and support for the professional air units.
Kind regards
Arnold Parker - Sky Watch
Arnold,
You managed to tame your old machine to speak to the
world!
I feel 'Super-Fluss' all of a sudden!
I must say your list of your 'puddle jumpers' appears to suggest that they may include some intelligent types! Mind you they all took some sort of test to fly didn't they!
Regards.
Bryn
You managed to tame your old machine to speak to the
world!
I feel 'Super-Fluss' all of a sudden!
I must say your list of your 'puddle jumpers' appears to suggest that they may include some intelligent types! Mind you they all took some sort of test to fly didn't they!
Regards.
Bryn
I'm happier with that Arnold. If all you are doing is just passing on some basic info regarding an incident on the ground, then that's fine. Sort of thing anyone would do anywhere.
I was concerned that you were getting involved in searches or observations which caused you to follow the situation at length. With continuous transmissions to ATC etc.
By the way, anyone spotting an incident on the ground which intimated a threat to life, or 'danger' should transmit a pan call.
PS: If the N Yorks constabulary needed specific air cover to follow up a situation like this, all it would take is a phone call to one of its 2 neighbours and it would get cross border support instantly.
I was concerned that you were getting involved in searches or observations which caused you to follow the situation at length. With continuous transmissions to ATC etc.
By the way, anyone spotting an incident on the ground which intimated a threat to life, or 'danger' should transmit a pan call.
PS: If the N Yorks constabulary needed specific air cover to follow up a situation like this, all it would take is a phone call to one of its 2 neighbours and it would get cross border support instantly.
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I think you’re getting all hot under the collar TC about nothing – It equates to the 100s of mobile phone calls from the M1 when various motorists witness an incident and a patrol car is sent along to check it out. What’s the difference?
I have lost count of the amount of house fires I called in to ATC when flogging from one end of the country to another – In fact it all sounds rather public spirited if you ask me! (which means the death knell from the government of course, citizens thinking for themselves and all that!)
I have lost count of the amount of house fires I called in to ATC when flogging from one end of the country to another – In fact it all sounds rather public spirited if you ask me! (which means the death knell from the government of course, citizens thinking for themselves and all that!)
Have you patented yourself UEO...able to identify house fires en route...miraculous comes to mind...bull**** too
There's a slight difference between jamming the local police switchboard and jamming the local ATC with superfluous calls...don't you think?
Interesting handle though
There's a slight difference between jamming the local police switchboard and jamming the local ATC with superfluous calls...don't you think?
Interesting handle though
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Commandeering aircraft (Rotorhead section)
I honestly think this thread has run its course. I'm the gaffer of Sky Watch and even I am getting fed up with coming onto the site about it - but poor old Thomas Coupling just won't seem to let it drop and his go at UEO really needs replying to.
Spotting fires - domestic and industrial - is no problem. We've called two in - both in remote areas - and we got a commendation from the fire service on one of them - they reckoned the early warning saved the incident from becoming a serious drama.
"jamming the local ATC with superfluous calls" is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Sky Watch has called in 22 incidents so far this year ... hardly jamming ATC.
We're flying legally in free airspace - people like what we are doing - it's no problem to anyone except unless we are touching a sensitive nerve by showing that it is not stricly necessary to be a superman dressed up in a fighter pilot's crash helmet and a Top Gun flying suit to be able to look out of an aeroplane window.
Let's just call it a draw and all just get on with what we are doing.
Kind regards, Arnold Parker, Sky Watch
Spotting fires - domestic and industrial - is no problem. We've called two in - both in remote areas - and we got a commendation from the fire service on one of them - they reckoned the early warning saved the incident from becoming a serious drama.
"jamming the local ATC with superfluous calls" is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Sky Watch has called in 22 incidents so far this year ... hardly jamming ATC.
We're flying legally in free airspace - people like what we are doing - it's no problem to anyone except unless we are touching a sensitive nerve by showing that it is not stricly necessary to be a superman dressed up in a fighter pilot's crash helmet and a Top Gun flying suit to be able to look out of an aeroplane window.
Let's just call it a draw and all just get on with what we are doing.
Kind regards, Arnold Parker, Sky Watch
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Have to confess to only having scanned the posts thus far, so apologies if these points have already been raised, but... I thought that the ANO required that " any aircraft flying in support of a police authority must be operated under the auspices of a PAOC"
The get out clause for anything like that would be "for the purposes of saving life". Not sure if a miss' per' search would classify as that unless there were a few more specifics.
I'm not trying to be a party pooper but it's the sort of approach that could be made to any of us and could drop us in the plop.
Keep the blue above the brown!
The get out clause for anything like that would be "for the purposes of saving life". Not sure if a miss' per' search would classify as that unless there were a few more specifics.
I'm not trying to be a party pooper but it's the sort of approach that could be made to any of us and could drop us in the plop.
Keep the blue above the brown!
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Blimey, the powers that be have actually listened for once.
Posted in this weeks orders - Thou shalt not commandeer civilian air assets!
Another victory for common sense. Thanks for your help, all
Posted in this weeks orders - Thou shalt not commandeer civilian air assets!
Another victory for common sense. Thanks for your help, all
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Someone mentioned Mr Ford in above posting. Not having first hand knowledge, but from what I heard he did a wonderful job out of his own pocket. We have a "Good Samaritan " Law here that helps cover some things. However this is the states and the big word here is Liability. People normally wont dare do anything that would risk financial exposure. Commandeering of Aircraft sets off big bells and whistles.
From what I have seen and experienced, folks die here all the time as others wont hang it out a bit.
From what I have seen and experienced, folks die here all the time as others wont hang it out a bit.
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Don't know if this helps but having looked at the ANO I see that article 7(1) says that a flight by a UK reg a/c in the service of the police a public transport flight - no mention of money at all!!!
Also 7(2) says that it can't fly unless under an AOC or PAOC.
Happy and safe New Year to all.
Also 7(2) says that it can't fly unless under an AOC or PAOC.
Happy and safe New Year to all.
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Good Post, Old Heliman!! I thought that I had the PAOC relevant bits of the ANO fairly clear, but you are absolutely right.
I have heard tell of Police Forces without Air Support using private aircraft and police officers nominated as "observers" flying as pax. Certainly suggests such flights would be a bit risky (for the pilot that is).
I have heard tell of Police Forces without Air Support using private aircraft and police officers nominated as "observers" flying as pax. Certainly suggests such flights would be a bit risky (for the pilot that is).
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Thought I'd drag this one to the top as I have just heard that Grampian Police used a non POAC helicopter today to assist them in a search for a missing person (unfortunately found dead). Does anyone own up to being the crew or knowing the status of the aircraft?
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Prof,
Sorry for the delay - been on 4 weeks leave away from the PC !
The interesting thing for me was old heliman pointing out that private flights "in the service of the Police" might not be legal. I have flown AOC flights for the police myself in the past, and I see no problem with them.
Sorry for the delay - been on 4 weeks leave away from the PC !
The interesting thing for me was old heliman pointing out that private flights "in the service of the Police" might not be legal. I have flown AOC flights for the police myself in the past, and I see no problem with them.