Caught the boss at it- What to do?
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To the "immediate CHIRP" - Gang:
HOw did you get your jobs in those "clean" companies?
Ex-military with a million+ training received, flying big iron immediately after leaving service?
Or did you make it up the ladder the hard way:
Paying yourself for the licence - being happy to get your first job at all, trying to make a living and still spend money on progressing to maybe the IFR, trying to get a job where you can collect some requirements for the big iron jobs.......
I do not look down on the military-start in any way, by all means lucky sons to have been able to make in there - but then, do not look down on the guys who had to make it the "other" way,either!
That´s why I am asking you which way you got to your "clean" jobs - I am pretty confident to know the result already, as most big iron drivers have been flying previously in the Army, getting at least a 1000 hrs before discharge, most of it in medium size. When they leave, they just match requirements perfect - for experience and insurence.
Companies with medium-heavy equipment mostly are corporate owned and there is no boss to mess with the times.
How many small helo companies are there compared to the above mentioned?
Where do most pilots fly?
Lucky elite, that you don´t have to bother with crocked bosses!
3top
(to set things in perspective - at my present job things run clean, but income sucks......)
HOw did you get your jobs in those "clean" companies?
Ex-military with a million+ training received, flying big iron immediately after leaving service?
Or did you make it up the ladder the hard way:
Paying yourself for the licence - being happy to get your first job at all, trying to make a living and still spend money on progressing to maybe the IFR, trying to get a job where you can collect some requirements for the big iron jobs.......
I do not look down on the military-start in any way, by all means lucky sons to have been able to make in there - but then, do not look down on the guys who had to make it the "other" way,either!
That´s why I am asking you which way you got to your "clean" jobs - I am pretty confident to know the result already, as most big iron drivers have been flying previously in the Army, getting at least a 1000 hrs before discharge, most of it in medium size. When they leave, they just match requirements perfect - for experience and insurence.
Companies with medium-heavy equipment mostly are corporate owned and there is no boss to mess with the times.
How many small helo companies are there compared to the above mentioned?
Where do most pilots fly?
Lucky elite, that you don´t have to bother with crocked bosses!
3top(to set things in perspective - at my present job things run clean, but income sucks......)
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3Top, I paid for my own training, then started flying offshore work on the North Sea. Yes, I consider myself lucky to be working in an environment with high safety standards. But safety is also a personal issue. If a pilot observes unsafe practices, he/she has obviously several options. But to observe them and do nothing seems like criminal negligence to me (but I am not a lawyer).
Having said that, I don't encourage anybody to go out and get themselves fired, but they should try and do something constructive to remedy a potentally dangerous practice. The guy asked for advice, several people have given what they believe to be their best advice, and I find blenderpilots remark about "the real world "offensive. So I reacted.
We can agree to differ, that's what this forum is all about. But we don't have to be disrespectful when disagreeing.
Having said that, I don't encourage anybody to go out and get themselves fired, but they should try and do something constructive to remedy a potentally dangerous practice. The guy asked for advice, several people have given what they believe to be their best advice, and I find blenderpilots remark about "the real world "offensive. So I reacted.
We can agree to differ, that's what this forum is all about. But we don't have to be disrespectful when disagreeing.
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S76Heavy,
I really don't know what you are talking about I haven't even mentioned the word "exceedances", but in any case sounds to me like you need to relax. (think beer)
I was only talking about making up for time you previously flew and didn't log for whatever reason.
I was only talking about making up for time you previously flew and didn't log for whatever reason.
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To report or not to report. In the end it is up to you.
But brings to mind the hours on R22 blades. They have a habit of failing when their hours are exceeded. But when do they fail? Is it only a few hours or a lot of hours after their life has been exceeded? One thing is for sure, if they fail it is catastrophic. This is but an example, and not a theoretical example, it has happened to helicopters that have overflown their hours by pilots who failed to record the hours properly!!
Even though it is easy for me to say as I am one of the lucky ones working for a reputable company that would sack you for not properly recording hours, I would suggest you move on and find something else. Particularly if after tackling your boss about it you don't get a reasonable explanation! Your life, or the life of one of your mates, might depend on it!!
But brings to mind the hours on R22 blades. They have a habit of failing when their hours are exceeded. But when do they fail? Is it only a few hours or a lot of hours after their life has been exceeded? One thing is for sure, if they fail it is catastrophic. This is but an example, and not a theoretical example, it has happened to helicopters that have overflown their hours by pilots who failed to record the hours properly!!
Even though it is easy for me to say as I am one of the lucky ones working for a reputable company that would sack you for not properly recording hours, I would suggest you move on and find something else. Particularly if after tackling your boss about it you don't get a reasonable explanation! Your life, or the life of one of your mates, might depend on it!!
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Blenderpilot,
you're probably right about the beer. But after losing fellow pilots due to mechanical failure (even WITH all the required checks performed) this is a touchy subject for me. The idea of willfuly committing fraud when recording flying time just to save a few pennies (especially when compared to lives risked) is something I feel very strongly about.
Pilots should always log everything on a flight. How else are we ever supposed to be able to trust a machine, if we cannot trust the people that operate and maintain it?
But I don't want to rant on, I think my way of seeing things is clear.
I'll get the beer out later..
you're probably right about the beer. But after losing fellow pilots due to mechanical failure (even WITH all the required checks performed) this is a touchy subject for me. The idea of willfuly committing fraud when recording flying time just to save a few pennies (especially when compared to lives risked) is something I feel very strongly about.
Pilots should always log everything on a flight. How else are we ever supposed to be able to trust a machine, if we cannot trust the people that operate and maintain it?
But I don't want to rant on, I think my way of seeing things is clear.
I'll get the beer out later..
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S76,
you must be one of the lucky few ones the NorthSea companies "adopted" right after flightschool - when there was a shortage of pilots over there!!! Envy...!!
I am certainly with everyone on this subject.
BUT it is not always that simple: one thing is what you want, the other what can you get and/or how much time do you have to get their.
If you can afford to look for a better place for a couple of month, go ahead - I for one can not. I have a family to maintain, and at the very moment I can´t afford to lose a single paycheck.......so if all you know is this job and/or all your resources are in it, it is a tough decision to quit. Certainly I woud say (to CH-6), go and change as soon as you find a better (in this case - safer) place.
3top
I would like to join the beer sometime,
!!
By the way anyone any lead on a solid company, international where a FAA- commercial is okay?
The internet is not a real help there......
you must be one of the lucky few ones the NorthSea companies "adopted" right after flightschool - when there was a shortage of pilots over there!!! Envy...!!
I am certainly with everyone on this subject.
BUT it is not always that simple: one thing is what you want, the other what can you get and/or how much time do you have to get their.
If you can afford to look for a better place for a couple of month, go ahead - I for one can not. I have a family to maintain, and at the very moment I can´t afford to lose a single paycheck.......so if all you know is this job and/or all your resources are in it, it is a tough decision to quit. Certainly I woud say (to CH-6), go and change as soon as you find a better (in this case - safer) place.
3top
I would like to join the beer sometime,
!!By the way anyone any lead on a solid company, international where a FAA- commercial is okay?
The internet is not a real help there......
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residual voltage in the system??? are you kidding??
hobbs or vdo's or the electric kitchen clock have springs in them, yes they do, and the spring clicks the numbers over, the residual kinetic energy is in the spring not in the wiring, that is why they can continue to run for a moment when the power is switched off.
i'll have some of that wiring for my house please.
what you gain at one end you lose on the other, ask an electical engineer.
i am glad that the ame you asked is not licenced or i would get my maintenance done elsewhere.
anyone here want to buy a bridge??
hobbs or vdo's or the electric kitchen clock have springs in them, yes they do, and the spring clicks the numbers over, the residual kinetic energy is in the spring not in the wiring, that is why they can continue to run for a moment when the power is switched off.
i'll have some of that wiring for my house please.
what you gain at one end you lose on the other, ask an electical engineer.
i am glad that the ame you asked is not licenced or i would get my maintenance done elsewhere.
anyone here want to buy a bridge??
The Original Whirly
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Interesting thread; only just got around to reading it.
Can everyone afford to do the right thing and accept the consequences? It would be nice to say yes, but not always; sometimes to do so would cause greater harm. That, unfortunately, is the Real World.
But you don't just leave it; you look for another way - like reporting anonymously to CHIRP, as has already been said.
The one thing you shouldn't do is say that others are dishonest, so that makes it OK. They may be, but you can't decide what is right by what others do.
And before anyone says I don't know anything about commercial helicopter flying, this is a universal dilemma, not confined to this industry.
Can everyone afford to do the right thing and accept the consequences? It would be nice to say yes, but not always; sometimes to do so would cause greater harm. That, unfortunately, is the Real World.
But you don't just leave it; you look for another way - like reporting anonymously to CHIRP, as has already been said.
The one thing you shouldn't do is say that others are dishonest, so that makes it OK. They may be, but you can't decide what is right by what others do.
And before anyone says I don't know anything about commercial helicopter flying, this is a universal dilemma, not confined to this industry.
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Sorry 3top, it's nothing to do with how we "got jobs with those clean companies", ex mil or "coming up the hard way".
It is a fact that in certain parts of the world helicopters just aren't operated that way. They just aren't. And the vast majority of N European helo pilots have never had to make it the "other" way, indeed the "other way" as you describe it simply does not exist here, as far as I know.
The helo buisiness in Europe is so thoroughly monitored that such shenanigans are simply not possible.
I would hate to think that any colleague of mine was so unprofessional, nay irresponsible, as to not report an exceedance in teh tech log. If he did not it could be my life at stake, just as I would cough up to my exceedance lest I risk his life. Is that hard to understand?
Sorry pal, things up here are almost always done by the book, and profitably. You see we have little choice, even if we wanted it which we don't.
I would not suggest that we in Europe are whiter than white, but the opportunities for the sort of scams you seem to suggest are virtually impossible here, and concequently tales such as yours are likely to be regarded with great suspicion by law-abiding pilots in Europe.
And we all thank Christ for that.
It is a fact that in certain parts of the world helicopters just aren't operated that way. They just aren't. And the vast majority of N European helo pilots have never had to make it the "other" way, indeed the "other way" as you describe it simply does not exist here, as far as I know.
The helo buisiness in Europe is so thoroughly monitored that such shenanigans are simply not possible.
I would hate to think that any colleague of mine was so unprofessional, nay irresponsible, as to not report an exceedance in teh tech log. If he did not it could be my life at stake, just as I would cough up to my exceedance lest I risk his life. Is that hard to understand?
Sorry pal, things up here are almost always done by the book, and profitably. You see we have little choice, even if we wanted it which we don't.
I would not suggest that we in Europe are whiter than white, but the opportunities for the sort of scams you seem to suggest are virtually impossible here, and concequently tales such as yours are likely to be regarded with great suspicion by law-abiding pilots in Europe.
And we all thank Christ for that.
3Top, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Military pilots or those who trained with large companies just because they don't pay for their training themselves. Well who would you want in charge of a helicopter flying your wife and kids - someone who had been through the most rigorous and selective training in the world (BritMil and others) under constant scrutiny and the threat of the chop or someone with a big wallet who just had to pass an 1179 or equivalent and pass a few exams (after as many attempts as they can afford).
I am firmly with S76 on this, if you cover this sort of thing up you are selling your soul - I know I couldn't ignore it but then I'm one of those easy-life Military types.
I am firmly with S76 on this, if you cover this sort of thing up you are selling your soul - I know I couldn't ignore it but then I'm one of those easy-life Military types.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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As one of the many SFH types, I can tell you I have, Been there, got the T shirt and the stained underwear to prove my point, this guy sound like the same type who leased me a good ole R22 that had, had a bit of an incident, but he didn't think it was too bad, after all what's in an overspeed of the MR, probably not a lot to some, but when my 16 stone body cannot control the stick when just getting airborne, its sad that people cheat, especially if in doing so, they put others at risk.
Get a new job, somewhere else!
Get a new job, somewhere else!
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To Agaricus b. and crab***:
First, I do not have any chip on my shoulder about Military trained pilots, in fact I envy you for your training+education received that way – I did not cut it (glasses), and at that time our army did not train any pilots anyway.
If I had a choice, I would fly my own family myself or I would fly with the pilot first – if I had the choice.
Also I would choose a company that is “clean” – If I have the choice. Matter of fact I did, because of the condition of the aircraft (there it was worse, never mind any hobbs….)
You can say, there is always the choice to say “no”, well giving up a chance, any chance on a first job is not always possible, except in your perfect world……
Talking about “The real world”: You guys are lucky to work and make a good living in a near perfect part of the real world. You had the fortune to be picked by the Military and/or a big company – AGAIN nothing against it; I wish I were there too. BUT a lot of people spend all they have for this dream. There comes a point, where you have to make a living and maybe start to pay back for the loan (again lucky you if could do without…).
If you are at the spot to make a decicion to risk it or just go back and drive trucks for the next couple years just to level your account, the decicion is not that black and white anymore………
(You would not know about this, you where never there…..)
Crab, it seems you have a something about not military or big company trained pilots. If as you mentioned there is no limit to funds and I pass tests or fail them and pass later, what is wrong with that, if the law permits it. If I have unlimited funds I definitely would not engage a less than perfect company either. Maybe in your perfect world (perfect part of the real world - ppotrw, that is….) this is the case……
Just as a note – I am from Austria. Aviation standards are about as tough as anywhere in Europe. However our social system (at the time I was looking into helo training) did never match N-European, so to get hold of the amout of money necessary for training is not that simple. By the way ask some of your fellow N-europeans that do not have a job yet and lets say had or have to fly on tunaboats……..
Again, lucky those that even don´t have the chance to pull off something wrong like disconnecting hobbs - if you don´t have a chance no one else does...........
Standards are pretty high everywhere in the world, it is the enforcement that is the problem.
Where I work enforcement is not perfect. I would say in the bigger part of the world it is not perfect.
If you read up my posts again you will find nowhere any endorsement of the practise in discussion, neither does BlenderP.
A specific case –CH6- asked for advise, I gave him one for this situation. If he could he probably would have denounced his boss and/or changed the company. Maybe he did, maybe he is at the same point as I was, and has to make a decision in accordance to his priorities………..you would not know you have no (luckily…) decision to make, as there are no cases like this where you work (in ppotrw…).
And another one is, that you need proof before you can press charges…..
By the way, CH6, what is the result of this for you?
3top
First, I do not have any chip on my shoulder about Military trained pilots, in fact I envy you for your training+education received that way – I did not cut it (glasses), and at that time our army did not train any pilots anyway.
If I had a choice, I would fly my own family myself or I would fly with the pilot first – if I had the choice.
Also I would choose a company that is “clean” – If I have the choice. Matter of fact I did, because of the condition of the aircraft (there it was worse, never mind any hobbs….)
You can say, there is always the choice to say “no”, well giving up a chance, any chance on a first job is not always possible, except in your perfect world……
Talking about “The real world”: You guys are lucky to work and make a good living in a near perfect part of the real world. You had the fortune to be picked by the Military and/or a big company – AGAIN nothing against it; I wish I were there too. BUT a lot of people spend all they have for this dream. There comes a point, where you have to make a living and maybe start to pay back for the loan (again lucky you if could do without…).
If you are at the spot to make a decicion to risk it or just go back and drive trucks for the next couple years just to level your account, the decicion is not that black and white anymore………
(You would not know about this, you where never there…..)
Crab, it seems you have a something about not military or big company trained pilots. If as you mentioned there is no limit to funds and I pass tests or fail them and pass later, what is wrong with that, if the law permits it. If I have unlimited funds I definitely would not engage a less than perfect company either. Maybe in your perfect world (perfect part of the real world - ppotrw, that is….) this is the case……
Just as a note – I am from Austria. Aviation standards are about as tough as anywhere in Europe. However our social system (at the time I was looking into helo training) did never match N-European, so to get hold of the amout of money necessary for training is not that simple. By the way ask some of your fellow N-europeans that do not have a job yet and lets say had or have to fly on tunaboats……..
Again, lucky those that even don´t have the chance to pull off something wrong like disconnecting hobbs - if you don´t have a chance no one else does...........
Standards are pretty high everywhere in the world, it is the enforcement that is the problem.
Where I work enforcement is not perfect. I would say in the bigger part of the world it is not perfect.
If you read up my posts again you will find nowhere any endorsement of the practise in discussion, neither does BlenderP.
A specific case –CH6- asked for advise, I gave him one for this situation. If he could he probably would have denounced his boss and/or changed the company. Maybe he did, maybe he is at the same point as I was, and has to make a decision in accordance to his priorities………..you would not know you have no (luckily…) decision to make, as there are no cases like this where you work (in ppotrw…).
And another one is, that you need proof before you can press charges…..
By the way, CH6, what is the result of this for you?
3top
Last edited by 3top; 25th Sep 2002 at 23:52.
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The strange thing
the funny thing is that like someone said "in Europe these things don't happen, "too closely monitored, too many rules, everything is done by the book" and even though there are all these things and professional attitudes, the fatal accident rate in the EU is about the same than in some North/Central/South american countries in which flying is done with few rules and lots of common sense.
And this is not even taking into account the much lesser infrastructure protecting pilots from doing stupid things and worse flying conditions in many countries over here?
Why do you suppose this is?
I've posted some helicopter pictures here:
http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/he...toAlbum15.html
And this is not even taking into account the much lesser infrastructure protecting pilots from doing stupid things and worse flying conditions in many countries over here?
Why do you suppose this is?
I've posted some helicopter pictures here:
http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/he...toAlbum15.html
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Hey VFR: In your case you at least can figure out immediately that something is wrong. Hobbs-fraude is pretty much not detectable (except you come across like CH6 did).......unfortunately.
Blender: Nice pics!!!
On one, your caption reads something about a VIP-flight and the pilot wearing a helmet and the pax probably not liking that!
In my area there was an accident some 2 and something years ago: A vulture (gayote) went through the windshield (JetRanger) and killed the pilot on impact. The co-pilot couldn´t hold the machine and they impacted on a hill. There was one more casuality when the helicopter rolled down the hill and against a tree, where one of the pax was killed. Now they require the pilot (the former co-pilot) to wear a helmet, no matter what!! They got him his helmet color coded with the new helo (B 407) - smily-yellow!!
I agree with your opinion about N/C/S-America!! Here the only thing that makes sense is common one!
3top
Blender: Nice pics!!!
On one, your caption reads something about a VIP-flight and the pilot wearing a helmet and the pax probably not liking that!
In my area there was an accident some 2 and something years ago: A vulture (gayote) went through the windshield (JetRanger) and killed the pilot on impact. The co-pilot couldn´t hold the machine and they impacted on a hill. There was one more casuality when the helicopter rolled down the hill and against a tree, where one of the pax was killed. Now they require the pilot (the former co-pilot) to wear a helmet, no matter what!! They got him his helmet color coded with the new helo (B 407) - smily-yellow!!
I agree with your opinion about N/C/S-America!! Here the only thing that makes sense is common one!
3top
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3top
Not long ago I was flying around at 05:30 in the morning with a reporter on board, we were bored and we were going from building to building (the ones in the pictures) looking for "intersting stuff" in apartments, it was dark and all of the sudden, booom something definately made a very loud thump, like we had run over a cow! I started looking around in the darkness and when I pointed the cockpit light to the windshield I saw tons of bird guts, feathers, s..., and blood
That day I learned that some big birds like to fly at night.
That day I learned that some big birds like to fly at night.
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Hey Blender:
S**t!! What helo where you flying with the bird on the window?
And what bird was it - in case they cruise around at night in my place too- !
I killed a bunch of birds, but just 2 during flight:
Some curious seabird while at a hover for a filmtake - until then all birds just got out of the way if they could, so I thought "no problem, in a hover you don´t move, they will stay out of it - NADA!"
The little white job was flying around the tips somewhere, then went under the tips and pulled UP in to the rotor!! I never thought the bird would have the power to go up through the downwash!
The other was a Gayote: A bunch of three, I avoided 2, but the third was turning into me on his blind side, got him with both blade tips. I could feel it, and until the landing (about 10 min later) I also felt a slight unbalance - sure enough plenty of tissue glued to one tip!
The rest commited suicide: Shutdown helo on a tunaboat deck - rotor still freewheeling - birds too curious - flying up into the rotor - birds dead and parts all over the place - The end
Now that`s a serious shift on the thread, from hobbs fraud to a piece of chunk-R22 offered for rent to dead birds!!
But that`s the "Real World", isn`t it,!!!
3top
S**t!! What helo where you flying with the bird on the window?
And what bird was it - in case they cruise around at night in my place too-
!I killed a bunch of birds, but just 2 during flight:
Some curious seabird while at a hover for a filmtake - until then all birds just got out of the way if they could, so I thought "no problem, in a hover you don´t move, they will stay out of it - NADA!"
The little white job was flying around the tips somewhere, then went under the tips and pulled UP in to the rotor!! I never thought the bird would have the power to go up through the downwash!
The other was a Gayote: A bunch of three, I avoided 2, but the third was turning into me on his blind side, got him with both blade tips. I could feel it, and until the landing (about 10 min later) I also felt a slight unbalance - sure enough plenty of tissue glued to one tip!
The rest commited suicide: Shutdown helo on a tunaboat deck - rotor still freewheeling - birds too curious - flying up into the rotor - birds dead and parts all over the place - The end
Now that`s a serious shift on the thread, from hobbs fraud to a piece of chunk-R22 offered for rent to dead birds!!
But that`s the "Real World", isn`t it,
!!!3top
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Taking it back to its original subject, did anybody here notice the worrying worldwide trend to take aviation professionals as individuals to court in criminal cases after accidents or incidents have happened? There was/is a thread running in the rumours forum I believe.
This relatively new development means that if a pilot knows or should know that his machnie is not maintained according to the book, he is putting himself at risc, not just the risc of having an accident, but also the risc of finding himself in court.
So whatever the circumstances in your neck of the woods, bear this in mind when you decide what to do.
This relatively new development means that if a pilot knows or should know that his machnie is not maintained according to the book, he is putting himself at risc, not just the risc of having an accident, but also the risc of finding himself in court.
So whatever the circumstances in your neck of the woods, bear this in mind when you decide what to do.
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S76Heavy:
I kind of like that trend, if it does not get out of hands. This should be applied to all transportation: cars, trucks, busses, etc.
The most severe case was in NZ a year or two ago:
Someone died because a R-22 lost the T/R or T/R blades. They where put on an overhauled machine - they where fake blades.
The man who sold the chopper knew they where fake and was guilty of manslaughter or so. I think he got 15 years.
3top
I kind of like that trend, if it does not get out of hands. This should be applied to all transportation: cars, trucks, busses, etc.
The most severe case was in NZ a year or two ago:
Someone died because a R-22 lost the T/R or T/R blades. They where put on an overhauled machine - they where fake blades.
The man who sold the chopper knew they where fake and was guilty of manslaughter or so. I think he got 15 years.
3top
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3top, that sounds like a clear-cut case. No problem there.
But what about CH6 who found out that his A/C probably has significantly more hours on it than recorded, still accepts it for a flight, something snaps and there are injuries and/or fatalities? Apart from the "normal" riscs associated with this thing, he also faces criminal charges nowadays. Which is something to be considered when deciding how to handle this hot potato.
But what about CH6 who found out that his A/C probably has significantly more hours on it than recorded, still accepts it for a flight, something snaps and there are injuries and/or fatalities? Apart from the "normal" riscs associated with this thing, he also faces criminal charges nowadays. Which is something to be considered when deciding how to handle this hot potato.
Wait a minute here.....If a guy can pass the 1179 ride and pass the exams.....to the vaunted CAA standards....then what is the difference here? Am I to believe the QFI/TRE/IRE/QHI administering the flying test would allow an unqualifed....unsatisfactory pilot to pass and actually put his reputation and name on the line having so certified the pilot to be capable? Are you saying mere base commercial pressures or something might skew an examiner's decision....or a feeling of pity for the poor guy who is paying out of his pocket? I thought that only happened under the FAA system (as suggested by more than one contributor here) or is the CAA system corrupt as well? I hate to think the Brit Military is the only reliable aviation system in the UK?
Tell me it ain't so Rupert! Tell me this just cannot be....Nigel!
Tell me it ain't so Rupert! Tell me this just cannot be....Nigel!