Hoisting vs Underslung Humans
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From: Auckland, New Zealand
Hoisting vs Underslung Humans
We spent a week with the Norwegian Air Ambulance Foundation talking about the recent scientific study they did between using a hoist and using the underslung method. Pretty indepth what they did - lot of scenarios in different locations.
Have a read and let me know what you think.
Hoist vs Underslung
Have a read and let me know what you think.
Hoist vs Underslung
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From: Den Haag
The actual report is here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...25753525002218 I saw it a few days ago posted on LI.
One thing I'm curious about is why the doctor operates the hoist and the technician goes down to the casualty - seems more logical to do the reverse?
One thing I'm curious about is why the doctor operates the hoist and the technician goes down to the casualty - seems more logical to do the reverse?
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From: UK
Hmmmm !
An interesting research programme, but ...............
My own experience 14 + years S&R and test flying with a variety of hoists and underslung loads, points unerringly to the hoist, with the add-on 'long-rope' where needed. By their very nature, these operations are unpredictable and ad-hoc variation for each crew member has to be allowed for.
My reluctance in respect of HEC stems from unfortunate (but non-fatal) experience with Whirlwind and Seaking - the common factor being the attachment hook. The hook mechanics, theoretically, prevent uncommanded release - experience refutes this, as it does for trials flight HEC (with dummies ! ! ! )
The hoist referred to in the programme is not one I have come across, but there is sufficient variation in manufacture available to suit most users.
As to the deployment of medic/winch Op/ winchman discussion, while we operated 'in role' normally, provision was made for winch Op/winchman reversal if the situation merited the relative experience.
PS - The fact that this is Norway oriented makes an obvious 'local' influence (terrain and Wx) but, even so ...
An interesting research programme, but ...............
My own experience 14 + years S&R and test flying with a variety of hoists and underslung loads, points unerringly to the hoist, with the add-on 'long-rope' where needed. By their very nature, these operations are unpredictable and ad-hoc variation for each crew member has to be allowed for.
My reluctance in respect of HEC stems from unfortunate (but non-fatal) experience with Whirlwind and Seaking - the common factor being the attachment hook. The hook mechanics, theoretically, prevent uncommanded release - experience refutes this, as it does for trials flight HEC (with dummies ! ! ! )
The hoist referred to in the programme is not one I have come across, but there is sufficient variation in manufacture available to suit most users.
As to the deployment of medic/winch Op/ winchman discussion, while we operated 'in role' normally, provision was made for winch Op/winchman reversal if the situation merited the relative experience.
PS - The fact that this is Norway oriented makes an obvious 'local' influence (terrain and Wx) but, even so ...
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From: Dublin
One of the big take aways for me was that there are still organisations out there willing to spend the amount of money required to objectively investigate and answer a question. Great to see and hopefully an example for others to follow.
Thread Starter
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From: Auckland, New Zealand
They had always been asked by people which option is better so they decided to rather than just use personal opinion they would use actual stats.
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From: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
Personal experience over the years and empirical evidence of a few "clusters" would indicate that Hoist Ops doesn't get the respect that it deserves to keep the operation safe in some cases. Theory and logic doesn't quite cut it.
Was at a reputable operators facility once doing maintenance in their hangar and casually asked if they trained for "roll out" on their hooks etc. The look on the faces before and after a demonstration was interesting.
Was at a reputable operators facility once doing maintenance in their hangar and casually asked if they trained for "roll out" on their hooks etc. The look on the faces before and after a demonstration was interesting.
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From: Ground
I imagine RVDT is talking about dynamic rollout. Where a closed and somewhat secured hook can still be opened during various manipulations of the attachment on to the hook.
This is a very interesting piece of work and one I’ve been waiting for. Thanks Ned for sharing.
This is a very interesting piece of work and one I’ve been waiting for. Thanks Ned for sharing.
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From: Den Haag
What Jabberwocky says. Some info here but plenty more if you search: https://lifesavingsystems.com/videos...HemZeKxVQb0uOP
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From: Australia
I have a memory of reading about a much more recent Australian case of dynamic rollout reported by the ATSB which I thought also related to hoist operation, but not sure how to search for it now. The only ATSB report I could find easily was for a sling load case: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...on/ab-2020-023
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From: east ESSEX
Thanks 212 and Jabby,I think on RAF SAR,this was a `known` fault with hooks but was mitigated by having a `pip-pin` attached ,on a wire,and then put into a hole in the `gate`,so it was locked.Maybe `Crab` or CJ can comment on later SAR times..
For the SAS troopers lift,I attached the abseil tapes,looped/double knotted to the winch hook,so we could winch if the trees were very high,as it was originally a pick-up from an LZ,but they(SAS) DIDN`T GET TO IT.
The later night pick-up of the stretcher/wounded had the tapes secured inside to the floor cargo tie-downs.Never to the cargo hook.
For the SAS troopers lift,I attached the abseil tapes,looped/double knotted to the winch hook,so we could winch if the trees were very high,as it was originally a pick-up from an LZ,but they(SAS) DIDN`T GET TO IT.
The later night pick-up of the stretcher/wounded had the tapes secured inside to the floor cargo tie-downs.Never to the cargo hook.
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From: UK
Sycamore - Exactly so. There were other add-ons, such as the 'Grabbit' hook and the short extension strap and. for anything over 60', the long strop (and then the later 'high line') Each had potential problems but personal experience made the underslung hook an absolute 'no-no' for human carriage.
Hoist problems (for the Whirlwind) stemmed, originally with 'bird-caging' ( wire strand separation caused by uneven cable laying). This we cleared with the introduction of the Lebus drum.
Ground and air testing of a limited number of other hoist manufacturers' products showed what improvements could be made, but (as ever) finance dictated the choice ... as with the RN Lynx. ! ! !
Hoist problems (for the Whirlwind) stemmed, originally with 'bird-caging' ( wire strand separation caused by uneven cable laying). This we cleared with the introduction of the Lebus drum.
Ground and air testing of a limited number of other hoist manufacturers' products showed what improvements could be made, but (as ever) finance dictated the choice ... as with the RN Lynx. ! ! !
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From: Ground
…
I have a memory of reading about a much more recent Australian case of dynamic rollout reported by the ATSB which I thought also related to hoist operation, but not sure how to search for it now. The only ATSB report I could find easily was for a sling load case: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...on/ab-2020-023
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From: Australia
I came across a further recent example of an uncommanded release of an external load involving VH-UAK, an AS350 B3 in Fiji on 1 September 2025. The ATSB is assisting the CAAF in Fiji with looking into this case. No further details of circumstances as yet:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/aa-2025-002
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/aa-2025-002
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From: EGDC
If you have a person on a hoist with a hoist operator - in the event of a problem you have two choices; winch them back to the cabin or cut the cable over an area you can see to be safe at a safe height and speed.
If you have a person underslung you have only the latter.
The other difference is that with a hoist operator, you have one person concentrating on flying the aircraft and another concentrating on looking after the person on the wire.
With an underslung person you have one person trying to do both.
You pays your money (or tries to save it) and takes your choice.
If you have a person underslung you have only the latter.
The other difference is that with a hoist operator, you have one person concentrating on flying the aircraft and another concentrating on looking after the person on the wire.
With an underslung person you have one person trying to do both.
You pays your money (or tries to save it) and takes your choice.
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From: At home
I came across a further recent example of an uncommanded release of an external load involving VH-UAK, an AS350 B3 in Fiji on 1 September 2025. The ATSB is assisting the CAAF in Fiji with looking into this case. No further details of circumstances as yet:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/aa-2025-002
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...rt/aa-2025-002
This operation is using dual keeperless hooks(must be opened to attach a load) with separate release mechanisms, and at least one of the linked cases above involve older type load beam with spring loaded keeper single hook, combined with oversized rings which is not an issue with keeperless hooks used in this setup.
It is an apples vs oranges discussion.