Helicopter can't climb
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: USA
Helicopter can't climb
Hi,
I just heard this clip and I’ve got a few questions for the helicopter pilots.
Why would he be unable to climb from 700ft to 2000ft?
When told to remain west, id have expected him to enter a hover. Is there a reason he’d start circling instead of hovering?
Not throwing stones. Just questions from someone who’s never flown a helicopter.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
He's got a medevac patient on board, sometimes the patient has a bleeding problem, others a breathing problem, and climbing, even though the change in air pressure is small, can make a big difference.
Hovering requires much more power than cruising, and he might have been so heavy that a hover would be a problem. Also at 700' there are reduced hover references, and it is possible to end up going backwards into the relative wind, which causes stability and control problems. Small gentle orbits is the usual way to do it.
That's why he said he would talk on the phone and not over the radio.
Hovering requires much more power than cruising, and he might have been so heavy that a hover would be a problem. Also at 700' there are reduced hover references, and it is possible to end up going backwards into the relative wind, which causes stability and control problems. Small gentle orbits is the usual way to do it.
That's why he said he would talk on the phone and not over the radio.
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Connecticut
Medevac Altitude
There are certain medical conditions and inflight treatments that require transporting the patient at as low an altitude as possible. As far as circling instead of hovering, fuel consumption is a lot lower when circling and the ride may be smoother. Also in the event of an engine failure, 500 feet is just above the top of some height-velocity curves at a hover (and below some depending on the type and gross weight), which means you have very limited options of where to land (worse case, look between your feet because that's where you're going).
Last edited by Tailspin Turtle; 24th April 2025 at 22:20.
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From: Den Haag
Not throwing stones. Just questions from someone who’s never flown a helicopter.
Climb issues already answered - 2,000’ could be a major issue for various injuries.
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Australia
ATC guy sounded fairly agro. But isn't it possible for helo pilot to explain that he is unable to climb to requested altitude for a medical reason? Surely explaining so doesn't breach medical privacy of a patient? Helo pilot initially says he will try to climb to requested altitude. So does that suggest he might have been checking with medical personnel on board whether a climb was possible?
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From: Montana
So does that suggest he might have been checking with medical personnel on board whether a climb was possible?
ATC was very busy but the pilot did tell him that he was active medical. It is a fine line but in theory the heli should get priority but on the other hand it is difficult and costly to make airliners do go rounds. It requires give and take.
The ATC going on at a pilot as a backseat crewman is not really appropriate and the pilot response of I'll speak on the phone later is the correct response.
A recording of the phone call would likely have been quite entertaining.
Last edited by Hangarless; 24th April 2025 at 23:29.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Minimum power speed for most helicopters is around 60/70 kts, meaning lowest fuel consumption. As 212 stated, hovering outside ground effect (HOGE) uses much more power and fuel and is more difficult to maintain accurately, because it requires an instrument scan in addition to ground references. Having said that, subject to prevailing wind velocity and visual references I would sometimes prefer to hover because I could place the aircraft to face a constant direction, such as towards the airfield or another aircraft on final approach. If doing the latter, the other pilot is more likely to get early visual contact with my landing lights, rather than a nav light. If orbiting it’s as likely as not that a controller will urgently require the pilot to acknowledge visual contact with an aircraft that is presently in the 6 o’clock position! Other pilots may not be so happy to hover, depending on their personal experience.
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From: Kiwiland
Sorry AC your first paragraph is incorrect. Decompression to 8000 feet as in FW can be a significant issue for spontaneously breathing patients and those with air inside cavities in the wrong place such as the abdomen, but below 3000 feet there is no clinical reason at all not to climb to 3000 ish. I will leave the aviation aspects to my esteemed colleagues
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: UK - The SD
Minimum power speed for most helicopters is around 60/70 kts, meaning lowest fuel consumption. As 212 stated, hovering outside ground effect (HOGE) uses much more power and fuel and is more difficult to maintain accurately, because it requires an instrument scan in addition to ground references. Having said that, subject to prevailing wind velocity and visual references I would sometimes prefer to hover because I could place the aircraft to face a constant direction, such as towards the airfield or another aircraft on final approach. If doing the latter, the other pilot is more likely to get early visual contact with my landing lights, rather than a nav light. If orbiting it’s as likely as not that a controller will urgently require the pilot to acknowledge visual contact with an aircraft that is presently in the 6 o’clock position! Other pilots may not be so happy to hover, depending on their personal experience.
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From: Hedge
Sorry AC your first paragraph is incorrect. Decompression to 8000 feet as in FW can be a significant issue for spontaneously breathing patients and those with air inside cavities in the wrong place such as the abdomen, but below 3000 feet there is no clinical reason at all not to climb to 3000 ish. I will leave the aviation aspects to my esteemed colleagues
Whilst not helicopter related I know of one instance of a patient having to be evacuated from A-B by fixed wing.
Luckily Pont A to B was mostly close to sea level and most of the flight actually across the sea.
Medical advice to the flight crew was do not go above 1000'.
Mostly uncontrolled airspace.
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From: The South
Sorry AC your first paragraph is incorrect. Decompression to 8000 feet as in FW can be a significant issue for spontaneously breathing patients and those with air inside cavities in the wrong place such as the abdomen, but below 3000 feet there is no clinical reason at all not to climb to 3000 ish. I will leave the aviation aspects to my esteemed colleagues
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From: Virginia, USA
The flight track shows N305PH came within about 0.7 nm of the runway 30 centerline at the closest point of his 360, which seems reasonable. Had the pilot followed ATC’s amended instructions to hold between 1C and 1R, 305PH would have been much closer to departing traffic on 1R than to 30 with his 360.
Perhaps the coordination between PCT and the LC was poor and the LC expected something different when 305PH checked in. This is a case of, had either ATC or the pilot communicated with more clarity, the situation could likely have been avoided.
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: UK
More than likely.
ATC was very busy but the pilot did tell him that he was active medical. It is a fine line but in theory the heli should get priority but on the other hand it is difficult and costly to make airliners do go rounds. It requires give and take.
The ATC going on at a pilot as a backseat crewman is not really appropriate and the pilot response of I'll speak on the phone later is the correct response.
A recording of the phone call would likely have been quite entertaining.
ATC was very busy but the pilot did tell him that he was active medical. It is a fine line but in theory the heli should get priority but on the other hand it is difficult and costly to make airliners do go rounds. It requires give and take.
The ATC going on at a pilot as a backseat crewman is not really appropriate and the pilot response of I'll speak on the phone later is the correct response.
A recording of the phone call would likely have been quite entertaining.
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: 350/3 Compton
Sorry AC your first paragraph is incorrect. Decompression to 8000 feet as in FW can be a significant issue for spontaneously breathing patients and those with air inside cavities in the wrong place such as the abdomen, but below 3000 feet there is no clinical reason at all not to climb to 3000 ish. I will leave the aviation aspects to my esteemed colleagues
Mog
Joined: May 2004
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From: Tax-land.
What happened to the good old Lifeguard status, wasn't that in the pilot-controller glossary?
I flew EMS in a fairly busy area and we had specific assigned transponder codes, so ATC knew who we were and were pretty good at allowing us in between fixed wing traffic, even with the field IMC.
Rarely I had to push Lifeguard to get through, maybe a couple of times, and ATC never questioned our altitude restrictions because we regularly met with the ATC folks in Approach and TWR.
I see a few factors possibly affecting the above situation.
1) the fairly recent midair in DC between the Army Blackhawk and the regional jet
2) The EMS pilot not being deliberate in requesting Lifeguard and THAT leading to him not explaining the reason for not being able to climb (perceived HIPPA limitations?)
3) Pilot fairly new to the area of operations
4) The controller arrogant attitude.
Like someone posted above, I would really like to listen to the taped phone call.
I flew EMS in a fairly busy area and we had specific assigned transponder codes, so ATC knew who we were and were pretty good at allowing us in between fixed wing traffic, even with the field IMC.
Rarely I had to push Lifeguard to get through, maybe a couple of times, and ATC never questioned our altitude restrictions because we regularly met with the ATC folks in Approach and TWR.
I see a few factors possibly affecting the above situation.
1) the fairly recent midair in DC between the Army Blackhawk and the regional jet
2) The EMS pilot not being deliberate in requesting Lifeguard and THAT leading to him not explaining the reason for not being able to climb (perceived HIPPA limitations?)
3) Pilot fairly new to the area of operations
4) The controller arrogant attitude.
Like someone posted above, I would really like to listen to the taped phone call.
Joined: Nov 2018
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From: VA
The medevac pilot not wanting to climb to 2000 feet could be related to the patient. I know our crews where I work, if the patient is on a balloon pump, they try to stay within 1000 feet of sending hospital (where the balloon pump is "installed"). It is my understanding that the higher altitude changes are possible, but the balloon pump machine will sound an alarm and the med crew may have to either re-program the balloon pressure or something along those lines (not a medical professional myself).
Balloon pump is a helium balloon inserted thru a leg artery and run up into the aorta to help the heart pump blood after a cardiac event or heart surgery.
Balloon pump is a helium balloon inserted thru a leg artery and run up into the aorta to help the heart pump blood after a cardiac event or heart surgery.
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From: Den Haag
Sorry AC your first paragraph is incorrect. Decompression to 8000 feet as in FW can be a significant issue for spontaneously breathing patients and those with air inside cavities in the wrong place such as the abdomen, but below 3000 feet there is no clinical reason at all not to climb to 3000 ish. I will leave the aviation aspects to my esteemed colleagues