Drones
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Drones
Can I suggest a new category for drones?
Some years ago I upset a few on here predicting the escalation of cheap drones to replace a lot of UK police helicopter work..At that time a lot of expensive operations were conducted looking for missing persons, the majority who were later identified as having mental issues or later found dead.
These days every police force in the UK has a dedicated drone unit saving taxpayers a lot of money.
More importantly drones are now used for a large spectrum of aerial work https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-eng...umber-66798401
Some years ago I upset a few on here predicting the escalation of cheap drones to replace a lot of UK police helicopter work..At that time a lot of expensive operations were conducted looking for missing persons, the majority who were later identified as having mental issues or later found dead.
These days every police force in the UK has a dedicated drone unit saving taxpayers a lot of money.
More importantly drones are now used for a large spectrum of aerial work https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-eng...umber-66798401
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 18th July 2024 at 18:36.
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From: Australia
Mike, I was waiting until your post would get a nibble from others, but it didn't.
Perhaps you should post the same question on "PPRuNe Problems and Queries" and see what responses it gets. Your idea seems sensible but I don't have a strong opinion on it.
In the meantime, I thought I would share this item to highlight what drones are up to:"A Two-Pound Ukrainian Drone Just Shot Down A 12-Ton Russian Helicopter": https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...an-helicopter/
Well, if 'true' (in the fog of war), I don't think the drone shot down the helicopter, rather rammed into it at a critical location (rotorhead?, tail rotor?, cockpit?). There had to be a little luck involved in that from the Ukrainian side, but also perhaps a very skilled drone operator?
Perhaps you should post the same question on "PPRuNe Problems and Queries" and see what responses it gets. Your idea seems sensible but I don't have a strong opinion on it.
In the meantime, I thought I would share this item to highlight what drones are up to:"A Two-Pound Ukrainian Drone Just Shot Down A 12-Ton Russian Helicopter": https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...an-helicopter/
Well, if 'true' (in the fog of war), I don't think the drone shot down the helicopter, rather rammed into it at a critical location (rotorhead?, tail rotor?, cockpit?). There had to be a little luck involved in that from the Ukrainian side, but also perhaps a very skilled drone operator?
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
I spent a lot of police flying time doing surveillance ops. Up at 3000' to 6000', dodging RPT under radar guidance, puttering along at 40-50kt, with an observer on gyro-stabilised binos watching a car from the left back seat, calling out left and right turns, cross-streets etc. Another observer in left front with a UBD street directory, calling out the names of the streets on the discrete frequency, plus other info like passing a red truck, passing the Mobil petrol station and so on, to the ground crews following further back. Often I would be in lazy progressive circles to keep the car at the optimum spot for the observer.
These days there are stabilised video and IR cameras, screens displaying gps info on street maps, the ability to lock onto a moving object without continually fiddling with the cross-hairs, a massive improvement on the 80s.
And a lot of this could be done by a drone, with no noise to give away our presence, almost impossible to see from the ground, cheaper to operate than a chopper with 3 people. But some dispensations would be needed to allow out-of-visual-range ops in controlled airspace and such.
These days there are stabilised video and IR cameras, screens displaying gps info on street maps, the ability to lock onto a moving object without continually fiddling with the cross-hairs, a massive improvement on the 80s.
And a lot of this could be done by a drone, with no noise to give away our presence, almost impossible to see from the ground, cheaper to operate than a chopper with 3 people. But some dispensations would be needed to allow out-of-visual-range ops in controlled airspace and such.
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From: Den Haag
Mike, I was waiting until your post would get a nibble from others, but it didn't.
Perhaps you should post the same question on "PPRuNe Problems and Queries" and see what responses it gets. Your idea seems sensible but I don't have a strong opinion on it.
In the meantime, I thought I would share this item to highlight what drones are up to:"A Two-Pound Ukrainian Drone Just Shot Down A 12-Ton Russian Helicopter": https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...an-helicopter/
Well, if 'true' (in the fog of war), I don't think the drone shot down the helicopter, rather rammed into it at a critical location (rotorhead?, tail rotor?, cockpit?). There had to be a little luck involved in that from the Ukrainian side, but also perhaps a very skilled drone operator?
Perhaps you should post the same question on "PPRuNe Problems and Queries" and see what responses it gets. Your idea seems sensible but I don't have a strong opinion on it.
In the meantime, I thought I would share this item to highlight what drones are up to:"A Two-Pound Ukrainian Drone Just Shot Down A 12-Ton Russian Helicopter": https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...an-helicopter/
Well, if 'true' (in the fog of war), I don't think the drone shot down the helicopter, rather rammed into it at a critical location (rotorhead?, tail rotor?, cockpit?). There had to be a little luck involved in that from the Ukrainian side, but also perhaps a very skilled drone operator?
Joined: Apr 2024
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From: Wantage
I spent a lot of police flying time doing surveillance ops. Up at 3000' to 6000', dodging RPT under radar guidance, puttering along at 40-50kt, with an observer on gyro-stabilised binos watching a car from the left back seat, calling out left and right turns, cross-streets etc. Another observer in left front with a UBD street directory, calling out the names of the streets on the discrete frequency, plus other info like passing a red truck, passing the Mobil petrol station and so on, to the ground crews following further back. Often I would be in lazy progressive circles to keep the car at the optimum spot for the observer.
These days there are stabilised video and IR cameras, screens displaying gps info on street maps, the ability to lock onto a moving object without continually fiddling with the cross-hairs, a massive improvement on the 80s.
And a lot of this could be done by a drone, with no noise to give away our presence, almost impossible to see from the ground, cheaper to operate than a chopper with 3 people. But some dispensations would be needed to allow out-of-visual-range ops in controlled airspace and such.
These days there are stabilised video and IR cameras, screens displaying gps info on street maps, the ability to lock onto a moving object without continually fiddling with the cross-hairs, a massive improvement on the 80s.
And a lot of this could be done by a drone, with no noise to give away our presence, almost impossible to see from the ground, cheaper to operate than a chopper with 3 people. But some dispensations would be needed to allow out-of-visual-range ops in controlled airspace and such.
does that mean you have 15 minutes on target before it has to RTB or else it just lets itself down in a random location for the local youths to come and pick up?
I don't know how you'd get around being able to spot it if the drone is operating above 400ft. It would be fairly hazardous for any helicopter as it would be near invisible.
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Australia
I was wondering if that loss is listed in the ASN Wikibase so I tried to find it. David Axe suggests it occurred 31 July 24 but no Mil Mi 8 losses around that time. But coincidentally I found this entry instead:
https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/404399
25 July 2024 - Mil Mi 28 while "returning from an anti-drone mission" was destroyed after a fire in the cockpit with both crew killed.
So drones having an impact on military helicopters both directly and indirectly.
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Europe
Here is a post that was on the Ukraine thread. I didn't want to derail that thread. Perhaps this is more suitable place for it.
===============
I too have my doubts as to how real this particular video is. I too could not understand why there is only one ejection. But I am expecting something like this to come to market at some time, and I seem to recall video of something similar from a couple of years back. There are aspects of what is in the video that make me think that whilst it may be a rendered CAD video model, nonetheless it may originate in something that has once had some genuine engineering roots. Or maybe not.
Anyhows, let us say that is a drone firing a 7.62x39mm round. So a 10 gram projectile doing 640 metres/sec. So 2,048 Joules kinetic energy.
On the drone side here are a couple of representative things.
Somewhat similar copter-stle to the drone in the imagery. Slow, so not so good for air-to-air against anything fast but maybe it is enough as a platform to take out the other side's shorter range quadcopter drones.
10kg payload, 29 kg MTOW, 18 m/sec speed. (So 4,698 Joules kinetic energy.)
https://www.jouav.com/products/ph-25.html
Not similar as utilises wing-borne flight, but may be better suited to longer range intercepts.
20kg payload, 100kg MTOW, 100 kmh (27m/sec) speed. So 36,450 Joules kinetic energy.
https://www.jouav.com/products/cw-80e.html
I really don't know much about recoil mechanisms and their capabilities. Some of you clearly are into that sort of thing. But a 100kg drone launch platform is not so different than a 100kg human in ratio terms, at least for the first shot. Being able to restabilise the launch platform for subsequent shots (and target tracking etc) will obviously also depend on the control authority of the drone's flying/propulsion surfaces. Not something I have time for right now, but if any of you do then it will be interesting to read what you think, and to learn from you.
A couple of references for anyone interested in doing more numbers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_of_firearms
===============
Following that I looked around a bit more and came across this discussion
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=492130
This suggests an approx 10 ms duration of the bullet leaving the barrel
If you have a look at this
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/recoil-energy
and plug in the AKM cw 7.62 x 39 it gives a 7.18J recoil energy for a 3.75kg firearm.
So overall I suspect these are eminently doable devices.
===============
Forces, etc: Nop, just a general judgment of proportions, etc.
Yep, I noticed the eject around the 13-second mark. However, the other shootings don't show that as well (despite having a front view of the presumed ejection location).
Did you notice the trajectory of the ejected part? It doesn't go down, but just flies away at a 30 degrees (or something) angle with the vertical and doesn't seem to follow gravity. Let alone, a bullet casing would be that small, it should disappear quite fast from being visible, which doesn't happen.
Also, the video does have 2 camera angles, where the location presumably ejecting the bullet casing in the second part, is visible in the first scene, but no visible signs of an ejection location there (let alone the ejections, let alone a bullet magazine).
Looking at the terrain, it doesn't really look like Ukraine territory, more a desert-like environment in Africa, with the oddity of "green" trees and large sandy/dried-out surfaces, IE the type of landscape artificially created in games/FS.
As you raise, it would be a beautiful thing, when it's reality, though the promo video certainly raises questions, about whether this thing is real or just another artistic/AI "artifact". Things just don't add up.
Does anybody have a name of this thingy, that can be used to search for more info?
Yep, I noticed the eject around the 13-second mark. However, the other shootings don't show that as well (despite having a front view of the presumed ejection location).
Did you notice the trajectory of the ejected part? It doesn't go down, but just flies away at a 30 degrees (or something) angle with the vertical and doesn't seem to follow gravity. Let alone, a bullet casing would be that small, it should disappear quite fast from being visible, which doesn't happen.
Also, the video does have 2 camera angles, where the location presumably ejecting the bullet casing in the second part, is visible in the first scene, but no visible signs of an ejection location there (let alone the ejections, let alone a bullet magazine).
Looking at the terrain, it doesn't really look like Ukraine territory, more a desert-like environment in Africa, with the oddity of "green" trees and large sandy/dried-out surfaces, IE the type of landscape artificially created in games/FS.
As you raise, it would be a beautiful thing, when it's reality, though the promo video certainly raises questions, about whether this thing is real or just another artistic/AI "artifact". Things just don't add up.
Does anybody have a name of this thingy, that can be used to search for more info?
Anyhows, let us say that is a drone firing a 7.62x39mm round. So a 10 gram projectile doing 640 metres/sec. So 2,048 Joules kinetic energy.
On the drone side here are a couple of representative things.
Somewhat similar copter-stle to the drone in the imagery. Slow, so not so good for air-to-air against anything fast but maybe it is enough as a platform to take out the other side's shorter range quadcopter drones.
10kg payload, 29 kg MTOW, 18 m/sec speed. (So 4,698 Joules kinetic energy.)
https://www.jouav.com/products/ph-25.html
Not similar as utilises wing-borne flight, but may be better suited to longer range intercepts.
20kg payload, 100kg MTOW, 100 kmh (27m/sec) speed. So 36,450 Joules kinetic energy.
https://www.jouav.com/products/cw-80e.html
I really don't know much about recoil mechanisms and their capabilities. Some of you clearly are into that sort of thing. But a 100kg drone launch platform is not so different than a 100kg human in ratio terms, at least for the first shot. Being able to restabilise the launch platform for subsequent shots (and target tracking etc) will obviously also depend on the control authority of the drone's flying/propulsion surfaces. Not something I have time for right now, but if any of you do then it will be interesting to read what you think, and to learn from you.
A couple of references for anyone interested in doing more numbers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_recoil
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_of_firearms
===============
Following that I looked around a bit more and came across this discussion
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=492130
This suggests an approx 10 ms duration of the bullet leaving the barrel
If you have a look at this
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/recoil-energy
and plug in the AKM cw 7.62 x 39 it gives a 7.18J recoil energy for a 3.75kg firearm.
So overall I suspect these are eminently doable devices.
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: UK/OZ
A you tuber who regularly flys drones over UK places of interest turned his attention to the Southport riot near the scene of the stabbing.
Initially he shot from the ground, but then launched his drone, whilst Polair was overhead. He states he has contacted police regarding this flight.
The video demonstrates what can be achieved in such circumstances with a consumer, sub 250gram drone. The recent news of a fpv drone targeting and taking down a military helicopter in Ukraine is food for thought. During a 90 minute low speed (at times) car chase in LA yesterday a news chopper thought they saw a drone enter the chase.
Initially he shot from the ground, but then launched his drone, whilst Polair was overhead. He states he has contacted police regarding this flight.
The video demonstrates what can be achieved in such circumstances with a consumer, sub 250gram drone. The recent news of a fpv drone targeting and taking down a military helicopter in Ukraine is food for thought. During a 90 minute low speed (at times) car chase in LA yesterday a news chopper thought they saw a drone enter the chase.
Last edited by mickjoebill; 6th August 2024 at 08:45.
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From: UK
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Australia
Came across this and various other related articles:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/dron...avy-test-ship/
The rotary wing UAV used in this demo is apparently the Rotron Talon DT-300. I wasn't able to easily find an on-line data sheet for it, but it is likely powered by a pair(?) of Rotron rotary petrol engines driving its tandem rotors. The rotors seem sufficiently separated that there is no need for intermeshing rotors. So this VTOL UAV seems like a simple and efficient arrangement with far greater endurance than any battery powered VTOL UAV can offer.
One photo on Rotron website seems to also show a variant of it with a thruster prop at one end, and the quad legs retracted.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/dron...avy-test-ship/
The rotary wing UAV used in this demo is apparently the Rotron Talon DT-300. I wasn't able to easily find an on-line data sheet for it, but it is likely powered by a pair(?) of Rotron rotary petrol engines driving its tandem rotors. The rotors seem sufficiently separated that there is no need for intermeshing rotors. So this VTOL UAV seems like a simple and efficient arrangement with far greater endurance than any battery powered VTOL UAV can offer.
One photo on Rotron website seems to also show a variant of it with a thruster prop at one end, and the quad legs retracted.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2016
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From: S.E.Asia
There were a lot of drone stands at this years Helitech in London and by drones I mean big stuff.I can envisage them taking over a lot of power line and pipe line inspections in the future.
The UK regulator is already looking at the future.
https://www.caa.co.uk/publication/download/23030
Police operations are already being scaled to meet the future.The days of wasting money on missing persons are now history with dedicated local drone operators used in much the same as dog units.
How much longer before the helicopters above London are replaced by drones?
The UK regulator is already looking at the future.
https://www.caa.co.uk/publication/download/23030
Police operations are already being scaled to meet the future.The days of wasting money on missing persons are now history with dedicated local drone operators used in much the same as dog units.
How much longer before the helicopters above London are replaced by drones?
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 27th September 2024 at 18:07.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Ground
We use drones with our helicopters to great success. There are many survey jobs that don’t make sense to complete in a helicopter anymore. There are still jobs that are well done with helicopters too.
They compliment each other well.
They compliment each other well.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2016
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From: S.E.Asia
Mustering in Australia come to mind.A poorly paid job with young individuals who dream of a better life than slumming it in the outback and often the victims of unnecessary accidents.
A decent drone controller could easily do the job without all the inherent risks.The days of the aerial photography business using light aircraft are long gone with every estate agent drone equipped and I can see a lot of helicopter operations going the same way.
Last edited by Mike Flynn; 28th September 2024 at 19:42.
