Firefighting mid air California August 2023
Chief Bottle Washer
Thread Starter
Firefighting mid air California August 2023
Early reports so far:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/3-dead-fir...y?id=102063948
https://abcnews.go.com/US/3-dead-fir...y?id=102063948
A firefighting helicopter crashed, killing all three crew members, after it collided with a second helicopter while battling a blaze in southern California on Sunday, fire officials said.
Riverside County firefighters were called to the scene of a structure fire in Cabazon at about 6 p.m. on Sunday and they soon noticed that the blaze had moved into the nearby grass, Cal Fire Southern Region Chief David Fulcher said.
Cal Fire helicopters and planes were called in to help extinguish the blaze, he said.
"While engaged in the firefight, two helicopters collided," Fulcher said in a midnight press briefing. "The first helicopter was able to land safely nearby. Unfortunately, the second helicopter crashed and, tragically, all three members perished."
The crew included a Cal Fire division chief and a captain, along with a pilot, who was contracted by the department, Fulcher said.
The crash happened near Pipeline Road and Apache Trail, the Riverside County Sheriff's office said in a statement, adding that the National Transportation Safety Board would be taking over the investigation.
Both helicopters were contracted by Cal Fire and arrived at the scene with different objectives, fire officials said.
The helicopter which was able to safely land was a Sikorsky Skycrane, a type that carries retardant or water that's dropped on a blaze, Fulcher said. The one that crashed was a Bell helicopter, used for observation while fighting fires.
The crash caused an additional four-acre fire, which was then extinguished, Fulcher said.
Riverside County firefighters were called to the scene of a structure fire in Cabazon at about 6 p.m. on Sunday and they soon noticed that the blaze had moved into the nearby grass, Cal Fire Southern Region Chief David Fulcher said.
Cal Fire helicopters and planes were called in to help extinguish the blaze, he said.
"While engaged in the firefight, two helicopters collided," Fulcher said in a midnight press briefing. "The first helicopter was able to land safely nearby. Unfortunately, the second helicopter crashed and, tragically, all three members perished."
The crew included a Cal Fire division chief and a captain, along with a pilot, who was contracted by the department, Fulcher said.
The crash happened near Pipeline Road and Apache Trail, the Riverside County Sheriff's office said in a statement, adding that the National Transportation Safety Board would be taking over the investigation.
Both helicopters were contracted by Cal Fire and arrived at the scene with different objectives, fire officials said.
The helicopter which was able to safely land was a Sikorsky Skycrane, a type that carries retardant or water that's dropped on a blaze, Fulcher said. The one that crashed was a Bell helicopter, used for observation while fighting fires.
The crash caused an additional four-acre fire, which was then extinguished, Fulcher said.
Top Answer
8th Aug 2023, 06:54
Just a quick note from Gordy :
I do have some insight I can share, I have flown for Cal-Fire on contracts for over 15 years. I am infinitely familiar with the procedures used, the scenario at hand and even that area. This was less then a mile and half from the tragedy of Engine 57 on the Esperanza Fire engine burn over and loss of life back in 2006, I was on a neighboring fire back then and spent a season at that helibase. I know the helicopter involved and gave the Chief Pilot of the company an FAA Part 135 flight check in the helicopter 2 years ago. The accident pilot attended one of my training sessions last year and I have also flown one of the Cal-Fire guys who died.
Let me preface this with "this is my opinion, based upon my knowledge of the above, and is pure rumor and speculation". I have stated before that rumor and speculation as long as is done respectfully is a way to learn....therefore I am fully in favor of it.
This was an "initial attack" response which was for a structure fire that spread into grass land. Typically the wind in that area is howling.....it is a funnel canyon between the LA basin and Palm Springs on the other side, there are hundreds of power windmills in the area, and I have flown through there many ties with 50+ kts of headwind.....(Look on Google Earth--you will see them).
Because of the recent history of big fires in Califorrnia, "initial attack" in certaain areas mean they launch everything they have at it, and cancel en-route if not needed. This fire never got more than 20 acres and yet tankers were dispatched along with the Sky Crane and a "Helco" platform, (the Bell 407). Both tthe Crane and the 407 left Hemet air attack base, (South of the fire), around the same time.... the crane went direct to the fire, (climbing over a spur ridge), whereas the 407 went around the ridge. The collision occured on the North side of the ridge. In talking to people who were there, it appears the 407 flew into the snorkel hanging from the crane and hit it with one blade which dis-integrated, then the rotor head came off. Something also hit one wheel of the crane--which landed safely albeit slightly hard, the 407 fell to the ground and caught fire.
The 407: Typically, a 407 is used as Helco, basically a "helicopter controller", he will normaally control the helicopter operations on a fire based upon the tactics and directions from "air attack" who is typically in an airplane 1,000' above and co-ordinates the tactics used, directing ground and aviation resources. If tankers come in, either the air attack will go low level and lead himm OR, once a fire gets established, they will call for a "lead plane" who leads and directs each tanker drop based on tactics ettc from the "air attack" platform. Once an "air attack" and "helco" get established on-scene, they will create "gates" for entry and exit fo aircraft, and set up altitudes etc for seperation. Bear in mind, they had not arrived at the fire yet---hence these had not even been set up. Not sure why there was two Cal-Fire guys on-board the helicopter unless one was a trainee, which can be typical, but normally we fly with just one person up front with us.
The 407 did a 360 orbit while en-route.... Pure speculation, but maybe he was talking to the crane but did not see him, so did a 360 to look, without realizing the crane went up and over the riged vs him going around?....... Then once he got around the ridge, turned direct towards the fire and into the crane. ADSB would not really help---he knew the craane was there so if he got warnings would have dismissed them as he already knew. I do not know why he was flyying so low....ADSB has less than 300' which is where the crane would be. Typicaally I fly Helco at 500'.
Either way, it is a sad accident, I can totally see how it happened, and to be honest, I am suprised it has not happened before, I have been in similar situations and had numerous near misses in the initial stage of a fire before procedures and gates are put in place.
Condolences to the fire crews and air crew :-(
Happening all too often with aircraft mid-airs.
First assumption based on the words above, is why was the Bell helicopter (an observation aircraft it says) as low as the fire attack helicopter (Sky Crane) ?
Secondly, if tasked differently (as mentioned above), were they on the same frequency broadcasting their path, heights & intentions? Who monitors & corrects them from the ground?
Happening all too often with aircraft mid-airs.
First assumption based on the words above, is why was the Bell helicopter (an observation aircraft it says) as low as the fire attack helicopter (Sky Crane) ?
Secondly, if tasked differently (as mentioned above), were they on the same frequency broadcasting their path, heights & intentions? Who monitors & corrects them from the ground?
Very sad news - RIP fellas
Condolences to the fire crews and air crew :-(
Happening all too often with aircraft mid-airs.
First assumption based on the words above, is why was the Bell helicopter (an observation aircraft it says) as low as the fire attack helicopter (Sky Crane) ?
Secondly, if tasked differently (as mentioned above), were they on the same frequency broadcasting their path, heights & intentions? Who monitors & corrects them from the ground?
Happening all too often with aircraft mid-airs.
First assumption based on the words above, is why was the Bell helicopter (an observation aircraft it says) as low as the fire attack helicopter (Sky Crane) ?
Secondly, if tasked differently (as mentioned above), were they on the same frequency broadcasting their path, heights & intentions? Who monitors & corrects them from the ground?
whatever happened, the wreckage shows the rotor head quite a ways from the wreckage and missing 1 of the 4 blades.
Chief Bottle Washer
Thread Starter
Just a quick note from Gordy :
Yes, all good here, thanx.
It was a helicopter from Air Shasta who are our neighbors at the Redding Airport.
It was a helicopter from Air Shasta who are our neighbors at the Redding Airport.
Just a quick note from Gordy :
I do have some insight I can share, I have flown for Cal-Fire on contracts for over 15 years. I am infinitely familiar with the procedures used, the scenario at hand and even that area. This was less then a mile and half from the tragedy of Engine 57 on the Esperanza Fire engine burn over and loss of life back in 2006, I was on a neighboring fire back then and spent a season at that helibase. I know the helicopter involved and gave the Chief Pilot of the company an FAA Part 135 flight check in the helicopter 2 years ago. The accident pilot attended one of my training sessions last year and I have also flown one of the Cal-Fire guys who died.
Let me preface this with "this is my opinion, based upon my knowledge of the above, and is pure rumor and speculation". I have stated before that rumor and speculation as long as is done respectfully is a way to learn....therefore I am fully in favor of it.
This was an "initial attack" response which was for a structure fire that spread into grass land. Typically the wind in that area is howling.....it is a funnel canyon between the LA basin and Palm Springs on the other side, there are hundreds of power windmills in the area, and I have flown through there many ties with 50+ kts of headwind.....(Look on Google Earth--you will see them).
Because of the recent history of big fires in Califorrnia, "initial attack" in certaain areas mean they launch everything they have at it, and cancel en-route if not needed. This fire never got more than 20 acres and yet tankers were dispatched along with the Sky Crane and a "Helco" platform, (the Bell 407). Both tthe Crane and the 407 left Hemet air attack base, (South of the fire), around the same time.... the crane went direct to the fire, (climbing over a spur ridge), whereas the 407 went around the ridge. The collision occured on the North side of the ridge. In talking to people who were there, it appears the 407 flew into the snorkel hanging from the crane and hit it with one blade which dis-integrated, then the rotor head came off. Something also hit one wheel of the crane--which landed safely albeit slightly hard, the 407 fell to the ground and caught fire.
The 407: Typically, a 407 is used as Helco, basically a "helicopter controller", he will normaally control the helicopter operations on a fire based upon the tactics and directions from "air attack" who is typically in an airplane 1,000' above and co-ordinates the tactics used, directing ground and aviation resources. If tankers come in, either the air attack will go low level and lead himm OR, once a fire gets established, they will call for a "lead plane" who leads and directs each tanker drop based on tactics ettc from the "air attack" platform. Once an "air attack" and "helco" get established on-scene, they will create "gates" for entry and exit fo aircraft, and set up altitudes etc for seperation. Bear in mind, they had not arrived at the fire yet---hence these had not even been set up. Not sure why there was two Cal-Fire guys on-board the helicopter unless one was a trainee, which can be typical, but normally we fly with just one person up front with us.
The 407 did a 360 orbit while en-route.... Pure speculation, but maybe he was talking to the crane but did not see him, so did a 360 to look, without realizing the crane went up and over the riged vs him going around?....... Then once he got around the ridge, turned direct towards the fire and into the crane. ADSB would not really help---he knew the craane was there so if he got warnings would have dismissed them as he already knew. I do not know why he was flyying so low....ADSB has less than 300' which is where the crane would be. Typicaally I fly Helco at 500'.
Either way, it is a sad accident, I can totally see how it happened, and to be honest, I am suprised it has not happened before, I have been in similar situations and had numerous near misses in the initial stage of a fire before procedures and gates are put in place.
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