Bristow and the Dutch SAR Coastguard contract, The Netherlands. Updates, etc....

[Hot_LZ]

What’s the most folk CHC Ireland have had to place in the back of a 92 in the last 10 or so years?

LZ

[Idlestop]

10 casualties, one of which was on a stretcher, plus crew operating under HEMS regulations with no SAR derogations.

[Idlestop]

Originally Posted by Hot_LZ

What’s the most folk CHC Ireland have had to place in the back of a 92 in the last 10 or so years?

LZ

.....or 9 of a 14 person crew in June 2023

[Idlestop]

....or 7 of a crew of 7 in 2021.

[[email protected]]

So not close to 15 then...........

[Idlestop]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

So not close to 15 then...........

No, not 15 yet even if you are considering these numbers to be small there is at least one of those ops that the 189 simply won't be able to do, the others would be very dependent on range to the vessel. The current aircraft can perform all of those ops in SAR or HEMS role and throughout the entire Irish EEZ. So, in the real world the S92 can do the job while the 189 won't be able to do some of it and is limited on the rest, in the theoretical world of 15 the S92 can still do the job covering the entire area required while the 189 can't.

[Idlestop]

Correct, not even close to 15.
Yet even at these low numbers the 189 simply wont be able to do one of those ops while the other two will be very dependent on range to the vessel which currently isn't the case. As for an actual useful capability to lift 15 if its ever required, that's also not a 189.

[Hot_LZ]

To play devil’s advocate here, I’m surprised none of the bidders proposed the EH101 if it’s all about size. You can stuff that thing full!

Why consider bid requirement, operating price, parts availability, mission system capability, performance when you can stick with status quo…

LZ

[minigundiplomat]

Originally Posted by Hot_LZ

To play devil’s advocate here, I’m surprised none of the bidders proposed the EH101 if it’s all about size. You can stuff that thing full!

Why consider bid requirement, operating price, parts availability, mission system capability, performance when you can stick with status quo…

LZ

The jump from new S92A to EH101 in terms of capital cost isn't as much as one may expect, however the incumbent S92A's were a few years old - putting aside capability for a moment (stand fast....) the AW189 has a much lower capital cost, and with BRS having sewn up most of NW Europe, even more affordable through synergy. To return to capability - the Irish have been offered two different capabilities, and despite already having the more capable aircraft on contract, opted for the AW189. Either the IRCG voted on price, or CHC need to figure out why they are just not competitive on SAR anymore (and this can't entirely be explained away by 2017). Finally, no commercial operator operates the EH101, and the induction costs would probably be enough to render it moot for any contracted SAR, unless their was some form of PFI deal on the table.

[Franks Town]

So what happens when this is signed and it comes out that CHC beat Bristow on price. How do IRCG and it’s advisors spin that.
Rumour has it Bristow are building a new base. The RFT allows for the Dublin base to be 25 km from Dublin airport so Weston Airport looks like the front runner. New buildings for Shannon also.all by June 2025?? Will this mean that IRCG will be helping fund the new Bristow training centre in the UK also as Irish crews will no doubt be run through this centre over the life of the contract .

[Idlestop]

For what its worth the Irish Mail on Sunday reported that the Bristow bid was €40m more expensive.

As for gaining approval to operate H24 from Weston all I can say is good luck with that!!

[SASless]

Depends upon what the Contracting Regulations are.....sometimes price alone does not control the outcome of a contract award.

Capability, experience, assets, and background as well as proven track record also plays a role.

[[email protected]]

I thought most people understood that always going for the lowest bidder means that corners have been cut somewhere in the bid and you end up with a lesser service.

IIRC Cobham were undercut substantially for the MFTS helicopter bid which then ended up as a disaster for several years

[Idlestop]

Always? Perhaps on a new contract or when a new operator is trying to undercut the incumbent but when its an operator who has been doing the operation for 10 years, with the same proposed aircraft, staff and facilities that logical would seem to be a bit of a stretch.

[[email protected]]

That's why I said always going for the lowest bidder as opposed to assessing the bids on merit. There is a mindset that cheaper is better amongst bean counters.

When people are complaining that CHC were cheaper yet didn't get the contract, it would appear due diligence was applied.

[Idlestop]

Or perhaps due diligence wasn't applied and the highest cost, highest risk, lowest capability bid won.

[minigundiplomat]

I refer you to my earlier point.

From some of the posts above, and recent media articles, it is very clear CHC are now trying to run the race after its finished. The fact they didn't make the case before or during the tender smacks a little of either complacency or lack of commercial ability. It's a sad look for what was a great icon of the industry.

[Idlestop]

Indeed, lets refer to your previous point. I believe you are saying that despite being offered

the more capable aircraft

the IRCG either

voted on price, or CHC need to figure out why they are just not competitive on SAR anymore

. Now if the MoS is to be believed not only did CHC offer the highest capability and the IRCG didn't vote on price how exactly would you expect CHC to be more competitive?

​​​​​​​From some of the posts above, and recent media articles, it is very clear CHC are now trying to run the race after its finished. The fact they didn't make the case before or during the tender smacks a little of either complacency or lack of commercial ability. It's a sad look for what was a great icon of the industry.

Genuine question, if CHC did in fact provide the lowest cost, lowest risk, highest capability tender how did they fail to make the case during the tender?

[Idlestop]

Seems like CHC aren't the only party not happy with the outcome, Senator G Craughwell on Twitter:

#SearchAndRescue €800 million of your tax monies over 10 years going to a private company that will provide a #SAR contract & use the very helicopters the AW189 which was rejected as unsuitable when @IrishAirCorps proposed it in their bid. Questions arise

If true then the same group of people found the AW189 to both be unsuitable and suitable at the same time. Schrodingers Helicopter??

[Lioncopter2]

189 vs 92 SAR

As someone who has done 8 years of SAR in an 92 and 7 years in a 189 I can tell you the differences in capability is not as much as you might expect.

Can you fit more people in a 92 than a 189 yes, It’s bigger.

Can a 189 go faster than a 92, absolutely.

Does the 189 have significantly more power available through most operating weights, yes.

Is a 92 better in turbulent conditions yes.

Are the avionics and autopilot mostly better in a 189, yep.

Range wise (configured as I have flown them), there is not allot in it, both go out about as far as each other on a full tank, though the 92 might win by 10-20nm (at most).

Could you fit 15 people in the back of a 189… mmmm if you had to probably, it would not be comfortable, people sitting on people but it’s SAR, if they are going to die if you don’t then you will find a way.

Thinking about it… 8 in seats, four with there backs to the door on far side from winch, and another four between there legs. That would take you to half way across the cabin and then get the Winchman in door closed and guys on floor can spread out a bit. Getting the stretcher in with that many people on board would be a problematic… if there was a stretcher you might be better off doing that first… don’t know to be honest.