Yankees In King Arthur's Court....Redux!
Thread Starter
Yankees In King Arthur's Court....Redux!
I tripped across this series of videos the other night and have been a bit interested in their endeavor to fly a Cessna 210 around the World.
Having had the experience of flying in the UK in Helicopters and Airplanes.....and having done the UK ATPL sack race....I found this episode to be very comical....having many of the same questions about how different flying in the US and Canada is compared to the UK.
I have had exactly the same questions arise when flying all over the UK.
One Ferry Flight from Aberdeen to Redhill in a Sikorsky S-58T in genuinely rotten weather that had the Ducks walking.....I knew the weight of command was about to fall upon my shoulders when my Co-Pilot responded to my question of "Do you have any idea where we are?"....by saying "No....but it is Five past Three!".
As I looked in the direction he was looking.....I saw Big Ben.....and knew instantly where we were and that we were certainly not supposed to be there.
It turned out well in the end....with the summons to the Top Floor being to learn we were dropping the Boss Fella off at his Surrey Estate and not me being sacked.
I laughed out loud at parts of this video......I cannot help but look forward to them flying in Africa....that should prove to be hoot.
Having had the experience of flying in the UK in Helicopters and Airplanes.....and having done the UK ATPL sack race....I found this episode to be very comical....having many of the same questions about how different flying in the US and Canada is compared to the UK.
I have had exactly the same questions arise when flying all over the UK.
One Ferry Flight from Aberdeen to Redhill in a Sikorsky S-58T in genuinely rotten weather that had the Ducks walking.....I knew the weight of command was about to fall upon my shoulders when my Co-Pilot responded to my question of "Do you have any idea where we are?"....by saying "No....but it is Five past Three!".
As I looked in the direction he was looking.....I saw Big Ben.....and knew instantly where we were and that we were certainly not supposed to be there.
It turned out well in the end....with the summons to the Top Floor being to learn we were dropping the Boss Fella off at his Surrey Estate and not me being sacked.
I laughed out loud at parts of this video......I cannot help but look forward to them flying in Africa....that should prove to be hoot.
Me too.... I forgot what it is like over there..... Now I know why my sister's neighbors cannot figure me out, my BIL is an airline pilot and they know I am a pilot too, but I get strange looks in my flip flops every day.
I also remember in 1992 landing at the World Helicopter Championships, (the British team did not want me so I was on the US team), and climbed out of the helicopter bare foot and with my flight suit wrapped around my waist and a wife beater on-----the look of disgust on peoples faces was worth the whole trip.
I since bought some epaulets as the only ther alternative to flying in the UK was to have them tattooed on....:
I also remember in 1992 landing at the World Helicopter Championships, (the British team did not want me so I was on the US team), and climbed out of the helicopter bare foot and with my flight suit wrapped around my waist and a wife beater on-----the look of disgust on peoples faces was worth the whole trip.
I since bought some epaulets as the only ther alternative to flying in the UK was to have them tattooed on....:
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Me too.... I forgot what it is like over there..... Now I know why my sister's neighbors cannot figure me out, my BIL is an airline pilot and they know I am a pilot too, but I get strange looks in my flip flops every day.
I also remember in 1992 landing at the World Helicopter Championships, (the British team did not want me so I was on the US team), and climbed out of the helicopter bare foot and with my flight suit wrapped around my waist and a wife beater on-----the look of disgust on peoples faces was worth the whole trip.
I since bought some epaulets as the only ther alternative to flying in the UK was to have them tattooed on....:
I also remember in 1992 landing at the World Helicopter Championships, (the British team did not want me so I was on the US team), and climbed out of the helicopter bare foot and with my flight suit wrapped around my waist and a wife beater on-----the look of disgust on peoples faces was worth the whole trip.
I since bought some epaulets as the only ther alternative to flying in the UK was to have them tattooed on....:
Was humiliated to be mistaken for a toilet attendant at a French Airport.
As to epaulettes we had an operation in Spain at one point with 105's. Endless problems getting through military security.
One of the engineers sadly nolonger with us bought what was described as an Argentinean band masters uniform.
Got saluted on his way in!!!!
Perhaps if the boys in the aircraft had bothered to do any reading of the UK AIP before they flew, they might understand the difference between an altitude and a flight level and controlled and uncontrolled airspace - that is such basic knowledge one wonders how they have a pilots licence at all.
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Thread Starter
Odd....the ATC and other folks involved were pleasant and did not seem all that bothered as perhaps they are happy to help visitors from all over the World who might be flying in the UK for the first time.
They all seemed to be as helpful as are their American partners are when hearing a foreign registration and voice.
They all seemed to be as helpful as are their American partners are when hearing a foreign registration and voice.
That will be because the ATC folk are well trained professionals and enormously aviation aware - unlike the guys in the plane on their version of a road-trip.
They seemed surprised they couldn't route direct through the London TMA to Shoreham.
Their Australian chum at Shoreham didn't understand the UK classifications of ATC service either - he managed Basic and Traffic but then went off-piste with Separation.
It really isn't rocket science and I'm sure the majority of pilots aren't so arrogant as to go flying in another country without learning the differences in service and procedures.
They couldn't even understand something as simple as 'Pass your message'! Hey Toto, I guess we're not in Kansas anymore..............
They seemed surprised they couldn't route direct through the London TMA to Shoreham.
Their Australian chum at Shoreham didn't understand the UK classifications of ATC service either - he managed Basic and Traffic but then went off-piste with Separation.
It really isn't rocket science and I'm sure the majority of pilots aren't so arrogant as to go flying in another country without learning the differences in service and procedures.
They couldn't even understand something as simple as 'Pass your message'! Hey Toto, I guess we're not in Kansas anymore..............
Nigerian In Law
Slightly off topic, but here goes. In 1991 I was flying a Super Puma on a short trip (a Beatrice) out of Aberdeen with a much more senior Captain and a Line Training Captain wedged in the (very uncomfortable) jump seat. He was the Chief Line Training Captain and wasn't renowned for his empathy. The Captain was notorious for being facetious and got himself into trouble fairly often. We'd been swapped for the Line Check so I was RHS, meaning all the hard work was done by the senior Captain.
The route took us almost overhead RAF Lossiemouth. My "co-pilot" called Lossie Radar as per SOPs and a lady with a very nice lilting Scottish accent asked which service we required. My "co-pilot" looked across the cockpit, past the grumpy SLTC, smiled and replied "Room Service would be nice".
There was a loud "Harrumph !" from the jump seat and his (I found out after we landed that I passed) line training form was screwed into a ball and thrown on the floor. The controller gave us Radar Advisory which was the default service back then.
My "co-pilot" was penalised with 6 months in the left hand seat but he didn't care.
I'm sure there are many on here who recognise the two gentlemen referred to. One is no longer with us.
I guess the opposite of the guys above; familiarity can breed contempt etc.
NEO
The route took us almost overhead RAF Lossiemouth. My "co-pilot" called Lossie Radar as per SOPs and a lady with a very nice lilting Scottish accent asked which service we required. My "co-pilot" looked across the cockpit, past the grumpy SLTC, smiled and replied "Room Service would be nice".
There was a loud "Harrumph !" from the jump seat and his (I found out after we landed that I passed) line training form was screwed into a ball and thrown on the floor. The controller gave us Radar Advisory which was the default service back then.
My "co-pilot" was penalised with 6 months in the left hand seat but he didn't care.
I'm sure there are many on here who recognise the two gentlemen referred to. One is no longer with us.
I guess the opposite of the guys above; familiarity can breed contempt etc.
NEO
NEO - ex RMP? May have landed at the wrong golf course soon after telling the whole crew room that if he had a wrong deck landing he’d resign (after an entirely understandable incident)?
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Thread Starter
Now....Now.....Lads.......if we are going to tell yarns about a certain company's training and check pilots.....we should start a separate thread for that.
I would gladly offer up some of my own stories.......one that ends with "Captain....there is no VOR at Benin!" is one of the better ones.
I would gladly offer up some of my own stories.......one that ends with "Captain....there is no VOR at Benin!" is one of the better ones.
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Great video and now quite relieved that I was not the only one to "not get it" when flying there.
There is once saving grace about flying GA in the UK and that is the sense of euphoria escaping the parochial as you leave to go anywhere else.
To make a point is to listen and watch when UK pilots venture to foreign countries and bring their weird stuff with them. i.e. Weekend warriors to "ler Tukway" for lunch and the frustration of the French controllers who you think would be used to it by now and the poor locals and others who have to make allowances to accomodate "le Rosbif". Should the French ATC read the UK AIP phraseology section?
I thought ICAO was put in place to bring "standardisation" to things. Sure nobody is required to slavishly follow but there should be limits.
Never had a problem operating in and out of Nice in France with 13 helipads and more than 30,000 helicopter movements per year or crossing Munich CTR VFR at a moments notice and my origin and domicile is about as far away from these places as possible.
Maybe we should run a poll as to the worst places for ATC on the planet just for interest as it will never change things.
One other thing that is evident in the video is that to operate GA these days is you need shedloads of cash which the lads are fortunate to have and more power to them.
I would bet that collecting and administering the £41.40 to land the 210 now at Shoreham actually costs 50 quid?
There is once saving grace about flying GA in the UK and that is the sense of euphoria escaping the parochial as you leave to go anywhere else.
To make a point is to listen and watch when UK pilots venture to foreign countries and bring their weird stuff with them. i.e. Weekend warriors to "ler Tukway" for lunch and the frustration of the French controllers who you think would be used to it by now and the poor locals and others who have to make allowances to accomodate "le Rosbif". Should the French ATC read the UK AIP phraseology section?
I thought ICAO was put in place to bring "standardisation" to things. Sure nobody is required to slavishly follow but there should be limits.
Never had a problem operating in and out of Nice in France with 13 helipads and more than 30,000 helicopter movements per year or crossing Munich CTR VFR at a moments notice and my origin and domicile is about as far away from these places as possible.
Maybe we should run a poll as to the worst places for ATC on the planet just for interest as it will never change things.
One other thing that is evident in the video is that to operate GA these days is you need shedloads of cash which the lads are fortunate to have and more power to them.
I would bet that collecting and administering the £41.40 to land the 210 now at Shoreham actually costs 50 quid?
Last edited by RVDT; 13th Oct 2022 at 19:55.
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Below the Glidepath - not correcting
We were transiting the London Heli-Lanes one day when we heard a somewhat unsure pilot call for joining H3 at Bagshot, the controller (who had obviously heard the same background noise as us in the transmission) just casually asked to "state aircraft type? - "Cessna 152" came the now even less confident reply. The controller was then an oasis of calm and reason as he carefully explained the primary requirement for access to the London Heli-Lanes was in fact, to be in a helicopter.
On another point I remember as a youth an aircraft salesperson who was shall we just say a "colourful identity" was coming back to our base.
There had been a spate of fixed wing VFR into granite incidents and some wonk in the CAA at the time decided the remedy was to raise the VFR minima and in this case it was something ridiculous like 2000' and 20 miles in a CTR.
As the conditions at the time were about 1800' and 50 miles he was denied a VFR clearance. The next transmission was along the lines of "Listen son, am I up here because you're down there or............................?
Issued with a SVFR clearance without asking and nothing more was said. Incidentally it was un-seasonally hot at the time and as he rolled to a stop outside the hangar he jumped out just wearing his boxers. All pretty normal.
There had been a spate of fixed wing VFR into granite incidents and some wonk in the CAA at the time decided the remedy was to raise the VFR minima and in this case it was something ridiculous like 2000' and 20 miles in a CTR.
As the conditions at the time were about 1800' and 50 miles he was denied a VFR clearance. The next transmission was along the lines of "Listen son, am I up here because you're down there or............................?
Issued with a SVFR clearance without asking and nothing more was said. Incidentally it was un-seasonally hot at the time and as he rolled to a stop outside the hangar he jumped out just wearing his boxers. All pretty normal.
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On a marginally marginal VFR -even - for - helicopter day, low cloud clinging to the hills and such, an unsure voice came over the airwaves:
"This is Alfa Bravo Charlie, can anybody tell me what the weather is like over the ranges?"
Silence.
Again, he made his plaintive call.
The captain of one of the Hueys in our group hopped on the radio:
"Alfa Bravo Charlie, this is Golf Oscar Delta, GO HOME!"
"err....roger..."
"This is Alfa Bravo Charlie, can anybody tell me what the weather is like over the ranges?"
Silence.
Again, he made his plaintive call.
The captain of one of the Hueys in our group hopped on the radio:
"Alfa Bravo Charlie, this is Golf Oscar Delta, GO HOME!"
"err....roger..."
For the benefit of other visitors to our shores confused by terminology and wondering why we don't use RIS and RAS anymore - it was changed as a result of losing two USAF F-15s in Scotland in 2001 because the implications of their clearance to descend weren't fully understood and they crashed into Ben Macdui.
The controller and the pilots shared responsibility for the accident as I understand it and the procedures were changed soon after that to make responsibility for terrain clearance more obvious - I don't know whether that has actually been achieved or not but we have what we have now and the emphasis is very much on the pilot to be responsible for terrain clearance.
The controller and the pilots shared responsibility for the accident as I understand it and the procedures were changed soon after that to make responsibility for terrain clearance more obvious - I don't know whether that has actually been achieved or not but we have what we have now and the emphasis is very much on the pilot to be responsible for terrain clearance.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Perhaps if the boys in the aircraft had bothered to do any reading of the UK AIP before they flew, they might understand the difference between an altitude and a flight level and controlled and uncontrolled airspace - that is such basic knowledge one wonders how they have a pilots licence at all.
Thread Starter
Question for you.....if you file an IFR Flight Plan....and you are handed off to another ATC unit....why is the Air Crew required to "Pass your message and ask for a particular level of service"?
In the US System....the ATC guys you check in with issue you a Clearance and will announce whether you are in radar. contact or not.....then upon confirming you are in radar contact.....there is no need to make any other radio calls beyond that specified in the Clearance or Amended Clearance.
The Flight Plan contains all the details of pax loading and fuel and what color necktie. you are wearing and each ATC unit has that flight plan and uses it to issue you your clearance through their airspace and coordinate with the next unit.
In the US....the highest level of service is automatic for IFR traffic....anything less is part of the IFR Clearance or amended clearance issued by the handling ATC Unit.
That seems both simpler and just far more commonsense than what we saw in the video.
In the US System....the ATC guys you check in with issue you a Clearance and will announce whether you are in radar. contact or not.....then upon confirming you are in radar contact.....there is no need to make any other radio calls beyond that specified in the Clearance or Amended Clearance.
The Flight Plan contains all the details of pax loading and fuel and what color necktie. you are wearing and each ATC unit has that flight plan and uses it to issue you your clearance through their airspace and coordinate with the next unit.
In the US....the highest level of service is automatic for IFR traffic....anything less is part of the IFR Clearance or amended clearance issued by the handling ATC Unit.
That seems both simpler and just far more commonsense than what we saw in the video.
Question for you.....if you file an IFR Flight Plan....and you are handed off to another ATC unit....why is the Air Crew required to "Pass your message and ask for a particular level of service"?
Perhaps you forget how congested UK airspace is.
I would like to have seen the lads flight plan - probably DCT Wick-Shoreham.........
Thread Starter
Freedom of choice?
That is your answer to the question?
Why would anyone on an IFR Flight Plan not want the full advantage of ATC assistance (contingent to their ability to provide it) possible re traffic alerts, altitude warnings, track deviation alerts, etc......"freedom of choice".....Bollocks!
Congested Airspace.....oh come on Crab.....other places in the World have congested airspace.....and in the US a hell of a lot more than in the UK.
Go to Flight Aware or any other tracking site and compare the east coast of the US to all of the UK for the amount of air traffic.
Other than the London area which is equivalent to say New York or Atlanta.....or Charlotte or Dallas or Chicago (each). the rest of the UK is not all that "congested" just as much of the US is not congested.
Leaving smaller airports on the West Coast headed eastward....our usual clearance was cleared direct and climb to and maintain a cruise altitude......and when on the east coast it was far more complicated.
Going into Teterboro or some place near NYC was always laborious.
That is your answer to the question?
Why would anyone on an IFR Flight Plan not want the full advantage of ATC assistance (contingent to their ability to provide it) possible re traffic alerts, altitude warnings, track deviation alerts, etc......"freedom of choice".....Bollocks!
Congested Airspace.....oh come on Crab.....other places in the World have congested airspace.....and in the US a hell of a lot more than in the UK.
Go to Flight Aware or any other tracking site and compare the east coast of the US to all of the UK for the amount of air traffic.
Other than the London area which is equivalent to say New York or Atlanta.....or Charlotte or Dallas or Chicago (each). the rest of the UK is not all that "congested" just as much of the US is not congested.
Leaving smaller airports on the West Coast headed eastward....our usual clearance was cleared direct and climb to and maintain a cruise altitude......and when on the east coast it was far more complicated.
Going into Teterboro or some place near NYC was always laborious.