A Few Questions for Hoist Operators/Winchmen
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A Few Questions for Hoist Operators/Winchmen
I am not sure if I am posting this in the right place, but if not please let me know and I will remove it. If possible, please let me know where I should post this. I have a bunch of questions for the SAR guys in the rear of the helicopter and I am hoping I can get an explanation here. I work in the aerospace industry (in rear crew training and simulation, hoist operators specifically) and I am hoping to gain greater understanding from people who work in the field.
How do you manage the cable hanging from the hoist in windy conditions?
During a hoisting cycle, what kind of problems do you encounter? I have heard of cases where the cable gets snagged or tangled on something (e.g., a bush or a fence), how do you handle this?
I was browsing the forum and there were some conversations about choosing a focus point when you are hoisting, and it seemed like the guys were saying to pick a focus point on the horizon. What is the purpose of having a focus point? What do you choose as a focus point?
Thanks in advance for answering my questions!
rbbd
How do you manage the cable hanging from the hoist in windy conditions?
During a hoisting cycle, what kind of problems do you encounter? I have heard of cases where the cable gets snagged or tangled on something (e.g., a bush or a fence), how do you handle this?
I was browsing the forum and there were some conversations about choosing a focus point when you are hoisting, and it seemed like the guys were saying to pick a focus point on the horizon. What is the purpose of having a focus point? What do you choose as a focus point?
Thanks in advance for answering my questions!
rbbd
Brace yourself.
The answers you get may be a little ego busting.
Contacting Cougar Helicopters in St. John’s NFLD or the Canadian Military SAR Squadrons may be of help to you.
Where are you located in our vast country?
Welcome aboard.
The answers you get may be a little ego busting.
Contacting Cougar Helicopters in St. John’s NFLD or the Canadian Military SAR Squadrons may be of help to you.
Where are you located in our vast country?
Welcome aboard.
It all depends on ... many things ! -not least the aircraft (and hoist) being operated. I have operated (many years back), Sycamore, Whirlwind, Wessex, Husky, Lynx, Gazelle, Puma, Seaking with Lucas and AEG winches and with Breeze with and without the Lebus drum. All, apart from the Seaking, (test flying on introduction to service) were 'talk and switch' operation - i.e. (3d)positioning guidance was by 'patter' and winchman/crewman positioning by switch. The major procedural difference was the Sycamore which had a combined WinchOp/Winchman arrangement augmented by a Hillman Husky hubcap !!!
Cable swing 'damping' was manual pressure to the cable via a (vital) armoured glove and swich manipulation sorted out 'hang-ups'.
For the Winch Op, focus was bad news ! - constant and overall 'scan' was essential, especially in close quarters - the pilot's might have been on the horizon, but primarily referenced to the 'disc' - aircraft movement is subsequent to disc displacement !
Procedures will have changed since the above but I suspect that the principles remain the same.
Just to add, the rear crew limited authority control function on the Seaking was tried on one sortie and considered inferior to 'talk and switch' - but that may well have been reluctance to 'modernise on my part !
Cable swing 'damping' was manual pressure to the cable via a (vital) armoured glove and swich manipulation sorted out 'hang-ups'.
For the Winch Op, focus was bad news ! - constant and overall 'scan' was essential, especially in close quarters - the pilot's might have been on the horizon, but primarily referenced to the 'disc' - aircraft movement is subsequent to disc displacement !
Procedures will have changed since the above but I suspect that the principles remain the same.
Just to add, the rear crew limited authority control function on the Seaking was tried on one sortie and considered inferior to 'talk and switch' - but that may well have been reluctance to 'modernise on my part !
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Cornish Jack, I recognize some of those words 
(You have given me lots of reading to do!)
The cable swing damping is interesting to me, I can only imagine the force/strength/control it would take to manage something like that. I would expect that with a longer cable (e.g., hoisting from a higher altitude) it is harder to 'dampen' out the swing you mentioned?
I'm curious about what you meant when you said switch manipulation. Are you referring to an actual hardware switch that had some sort of control? (In my mind I'm imagining the operator 'jogging' the cable up and down until it comes loose from its snag point).
Very cool insight about the focusing, I hadn't thought of that! Are you able to share what your scan process was like? Did you have a particular pattern or process to follow, or was it one of those 'it depends' scenarios where each time you were hoisting the 'scan' would be different? What would you be scanning for? A focus point, watching out for hazards, etc?
Thanks again for the insights, very interesting!
(You have given me lots of reading to do!)The cable swing damping is interesting to me, I can only imagine the force/strength/control it would take to manage something like that. I would expect that with a longer cable (e.g., hoisting from a higher altitude) it is harder to 'dampen' out the swing you mentioned?
I'm curious about what you meant when you said switch manipulation. Are you referring to an actual hardware switch that had some sort of control? (In my mind I'm imagining the operator 'jogging' the cable up and down until it comes loose from its snag point).
Very cool insight about the focusing, I hadn't thought of that! Are you able to share what your scan process was like? Did you have a particular pattern or process to follow, or was it one of those 'it depends' scenarios where each time you were hoisting the 'scan' would be different? What would you be scanning for? A focus point, watching out for hazards, etc?
Thanks again for the insights, very interesting!
Quick question. for hoist folks.
Not applicable to boat/ship ops where you have a moving platform under you and masts / derricks ect. taking mad swipes at you.
Talking day VFR overland ops.
Does anyone do hoist operations using vertical reference longline techniques for aircraft positioning?
I have seen films of some mountain rescues using a harness or stretcher on the end of a longline.
I remember doing a bit of hoist training and one of the other pilots ( Who had +++++ hrs of single pilot longline Vert Ref operations) commenting upon seeing a hoist for the first time “ Humm, a retractable longline. What will they think of next?”
He, of course, did excellently on the course using the hoist techniques being taught and had a fun time learning them.
I would think that it would be a much more time consuming process to teach a pilot Vert. Ref. flying than learning hoisting in the usual way.
Also I am not advocating Vert. Ref. as a replacement for hoist operations as presently taught and practiced.
Just wondering.
Not applicable to boat/ship ops where you have a moving platform under you and masts / derricks ect. taking mad swipes at you.
Talking day VFR overland ops.
Does anyone do hoist operations using vertical reference longline techniques for aircraft positioning?
I have seen films of some mountain rescues using a harness or stretcher on the end of a longline.
I remember doing a bit of hoist training and one of the other pilots ( Who had +++++ hrs of single pilot longline Vert Ref operations) commenting upon seeing a hoist for the first time “ Humm, a retractable longline. What will they think of next?”
He, of course, did excellently on the course using the hoist techniques being taught and had a fun time learning them.
I would think that it would be a much more time consuming process to teach a pilot Vert. Ref. flying than learning hoisting in the usual way.
Also I am not advocating Vert. Ref. as a replacement for hoist operations as presently taught and practiced.
Just wondering.
Albatross -- We (on Whirlwinds) used a combination of 'longlining' and winching using a 120' extension strap attached to the winch hook - to use where our standard 60' was insufficient. The procedure was similar, required greater anticipation of swings, and had the advantage of reduced downdraft. The visual geometry required that hovering was 'disc referenced' coupled to the 'patter-rate' from the Winch-op.
As far as boat/ship winching ops were concerned, if possible, we operated onto the bows to minimise turbulence and reduce boat pitching. Having said which, the only 'real-life' op I did was off a 120,000 ton oil-tanker ... like winching off a football pitch !
As far as boat/ship winching ops were concerned, if possible, we operated onto the bows to minimise turbulence and reduce boat pitching. Having said which, the only 'real-life' op I did was off a 120,000 ton oil-tanker ... like winching off a football pitch !
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Hi rbbd,
Just a curious question. How can you work in „rear crew training, especially hoist operators“ when you don‘t seem to have too much understanding of what is going on during a hoist operation? Or did I misunderstand your initial post?
no offence - evil7
Just a curious question. How can you work in „rear crew training, especially hoist operators“ when you don‘t seem to have too much understanding of what is going on during a hoist operation? Or did I misunderstand your initial post?
no offence - evil7
Essential caveat to my posts above, they were based on personal experience as operator/instructor on equipment in use many years back. While i suspect that the principles remain similar, the equipment will have imoroved markedly. For example, our 'medical assistance' was restricted to basic first aid and commonsense and an 'Automan' resuscitator (oxygen pump). The winchman had no comms other than hand signals.Today's crews are paramedic trained with approriate on-board equipment and handset comms. The aircraft have much improved night and foul Wx capability.
Other than indulging in nostalgia, I would suggest that someone more recently involved would be better placed to deal with your queries
Other than indulging in nostalgia, I would suggest that someone more recently involved would be better placed to deal with your queries
rbbd - the winch operator will typically have one hand on the winch control (it was a handle on the Sea King that controlled hydraulic fluid flow to the appropriate side of the hoist motor) on modern aircraft it is a switch, often on a pendant, controlling an electrical hoist.
The other hand will usually have a protective glove on it and hold (but not grip) the winch wire to assist in fine-tuning the position of the winchman or damp out any swing - it also enable him to feel a winchman hitting the cable as a signal in the dark on a long length of cable when his hand signals might not be visible.
As CJ says the modern SAR aircraft has a far higher capability, including intercom and radio direct to the winchman's helmet.
On the Sea King the winch operator could also fly the aircraft using AHT (auxiliary hover trim) which was a joystick patched into the aircraft AFCS giving him about a 10% control authority - since the pilot can't see under the aircraft, sometimes the winch operator could give a better service to the winchman by using AHT rather than having to give voice commands to the pilot and waiting for him to respond. Modern aircraft have a very capable Auto Hover and have a similar arrangement for the winch operator to control the aircraft.
The use of a scan by the winch operator is so that he can monitor tip and tail clearances and any positional changes of the aircraft quickly - very important next to big cliffs or a tall mast on a boat. He also looks for height markers to assess any climb or sink but his main focus is on what is happening below the aircraft to the winchman and casualty.
The position of the winch operator is vital, he should normally be kneeling in the door directly below the hoist so his voice marshalling or AHT datum is the 'overhead' - this is particularly important when lifting the winchman/casualty off the ground/deck/cliff because if you winch in, away from the overhead, you immediately induce a swing which can be very dangerous.
The other hand will usually have a protective glove on it and hold (but not grip) the winch wire to assist in fine-tuning the position of the winchman or damp out any swing - it also enable him to feel a winchman hitting the cable as a signal in the dark on a long length of cable when his hand signals might not be visible.
As CJ says the modern SAR aircraft has a far higher capability, including intercom and radio direct to the winchman's helmet.
On the Sea King the winch operator could also fly the aircraft using AHT (auxiliary hover trim) which was a joystick patched into the aircraft AFCS giving him about a 10% control authority - since the pilot can't see under the aircraft, sometimes the winch operator could give a better service to the winchman by using AHT rather than having to give voice commands to the pilot and waiting for him to respond. Modern aircraft have a very capable Auto Hover and have a similar arrangement for the winch operator to control the aircraft.
The use of a scan by the winch operator is so that he can monitor tip and tail clearances and any positional changes of the aircraft quickly - very important next to big cliffs or a tall mast on a boat. He also looks for height markers to assess any climb or sink but his main focus is on what is happening below the aircraft to the winchman and casualty.
The position of the winch operator is vital, he should normally be kneeling in the door directly below the hoist so his voice marshalling or AHT datum is the 'overhead' - this is particularly important when lifting the winchman/casualty off the ground/deck/cliff because if you winch in, away from the overhead, you immediately induce a swing which can be very dangerous.
