France and Spain launch Tiger Mk III upgrade
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France and Spain launch Tiger Mk III upgrade
Tiger Mark 3: it's decision time for Germany
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/le-tigre-mark-3-n-aura-pas-d-equivalent-au-niveau-mondial-bruno-even-airbus-helicopters-905626.htmlThe Berlin Air Show (ILA) will give indications on German orientations in terms of cooperation with France and Europe. Germany will have to say whether or not it remains in the Tiger Mark 3 program
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The signals from Germany "are not positive at the operational level and at the Ministry of Defense in relation to the priority which would be given to the Tiger Mark 3" underlined the CEO of Airbus Helicopters, Bruno Even. (Credits: Airbus Helicopters)There is no longer any doubt that Germany should announce shortly - possibly at the ILA air show in Berlin - that it will not participate in the modernization program of the Tiger combat helicopter by upgrading its aircraft to standard 3 under prime contractor Airbus Helicopters. Once again Berlin proves to be an unreliable partner for France in terms of European cooperation in the field of armaments. The list is long, too long of German renunciations on programs in cooperation with France launched in July 2017: armament of the Tiger (MAST-F missile now Akeron-LP), program of maritime patrol aircraft MAWS (Berlin ordered P-8A Poseidons from Boeing) and, finally, most certainly the Tiger Mark 3.
If Germany confirmed the decision to release the Tiger Mark 3, it would cause a new legitimate frustration in Paris and above all would not generate confidence in France while the latter has privileged Berlin as a major partner in the field of defense. Finally, France would take a new slap in the face, especially since Emmanuel Macron has invested a lot in bringing out and launching all these cooperations. The next speeches by Sébastien Lecornu, the new Minister of the Armed Forces very close to the President, will therefore be scrutinized in the light of German decisions.
Tiger Mark 3 is not Berlin's priority
The Germans have until around the end of June to communicate to France and Spain their decision to remain in this program. At the Paris Forum held in early June, Airbus Helicopters CEO Bruno Even seemed pessimistic about Germany's participation in this program. Asked if he had had any positive signals from Germany, he replied that "They are not positive at the operational level and at the Ministry of Defense in relation to the priority, which would be given to the Tiger Mark 3". “Nevertheless, I consider that everything is possible because the decision on this type of program is political,” he added cautiously, leaving the door open to German politicians. At the ILA show, the Germans should confirm that they are staying at the dock.
Bruno Even does not "believe in an American option", which is "unrealistic". The whole question is whether Berlin will offer compensation to Airbus Helicopters, naturally favoring the German factories of the manufacturer. Beyond the maintenance and treatment of obsolescence of the current German Tiger, which has not been called into question, will Berlin acquire lighter combat aircraft of the H145 type, or even H135s, from Airbus? Helicopters? It would seem logical. Finally, the skills of Donauwörth will be used within the framework of the Tiger Mk3, independently of the arrival of Germany on this program.
The differences between Paris and Berlin
Between France and Germany, "we have a fundamental subject, which will not necessarily be reduced given the additional means that the Germans will invest in their defense", it was estimated not long ago that Paris. Crucial differences. In France, the armed forces express operational needs, which manufacturers strive to meet. "In Germany, things don't work that way. Defense manufacturers produce defense equipment and the armies buy it or not", we explain to the Tribune. Thus, as soon as Berlin announced the defense fund of 100 billion euros, German industrialists presented their invoice to the German authorities, including one that could supply up to 42 billion euros in military equipment.
In addition, "there is not the equivalent of a DGA in Germany. This creates a difficulty for us French. The lack of symmetry means that we sometimes have difficulty finding interlocutors, identifying them and identify the places of decision-making. It's not easy", we explain in Paris.
Finally, the German government is very sensitive to the concerns of German industrialists. "Seen from France, it is difficult to understand that when an industrialist is reluctant, the German government cannot orient, incite, convince, persuade certain industrialists that it is important to see the problem differently, and therefore to try to provide a solution", we explain in Paris. This is the case with the MGCS program (tank of the future) blocked by Rheinmetall and the SCAF (Future air combat system), blocked by Airbus (phase 1B). This point "shows a significant difference between France and Germany". In the end, Franco-German cooperation is very complicated to launch. Especially since we must add the problems of coalitions, the relations between the Chancellery and the Bundestag, the German institutional rules...
Last edited by Cyclic Hotline; 22nd Jun 2022 at 12:55. Reason: Formatting
The list is long, too long of German renunciations on programs in cooperation with France launched in July 2017: armament of the Tiger (MAST-F missile now Akeron-LP), program of maritime patrol aircraft MAWS (Berlin ordered P-8A Poseidons from Boeing) and, finally, most certainly the Tiger Mark 3.
BUT
When looking at the projects in question you need really rose tinted glasses not to see glaring issues wth them.
MAWS will be simply way to late when looking at the latent threat of an aggressive Russia we experience as we write. OK, France is quite some miles away from Russia and thus doesn't care too much about this. Germany although/therefore somewhat reluctant in the current conflict is in striking distance by Russian Intermediate Range missiles (Kaliningrad - Berlin is 300 miles which would be the equivalent of Dublin - London, Frankfurt - Paris and not much more than Nantucket - New York -just imagine what this would mean for US politics). And thus is much more concerned by what's currently happening 500 miles East.
Then Tiger MkIII. Well the Tiger... I mean you just need to read some threads on this very forum to come to the conclusion that throwing more money into that black hole might be just the second best idea. Out of two ideas. This thing is flying (or better decorating workshops and hangars) since 18 years and still has a readiness rate <<20%. And even with lots of money thrown after it this is not predicted to change much for the next 5 years due signifcantly to ongoing upgrades at a speed where you risk being run over by a snail. How on Earth can soemeone really consider sending it to the next round of upgrades?!
Last edited by henra; 23rd Jun 2022 at 13:28.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/...
The Tiger attack helicopter program has been unsettled by Germany refusing to join a MkIII midlife upgrade effort with France and Spain. (French Army on Twitter)
BELFAST — The French government, military and industry plan to reassess the capabilities they want in an upgrade to the Tiger attack helicopter, including a key analysis of drone compatibility, potentially putting in question the planned, full MkIII upgrade.
Asked specifically about whether the MkIII mid-life upgrade would be funded, a French military spokesperson only confirmed that a “new Tiger standard is not put into question in the upcoming Loi de programmation militaire (LPM) [military programming law].”
“During his hearing in the Senate on February 28, Sébastien Lecornu, Minister for the Armed Forces, affirmed that the Tiger helicopter will continue to fly until 2042-2045,” said the French Ministry of Armed Forces spokesperson. “The Minister nevertheless mandated the armed forces and the DGA [Directorate of General Armaments], in conjunction with manufacturers, to evolve standards envisaged to meet needs identified, in terms of technological developments (in particular reflect on compatibility with drones) and economic sustainability, to ensure export success.”
The statement comes after Force Operations Blog (FOB), a specialist French Army website, reported earlier this month that an unnamed military source said the Tiger MkIII mid-life upgrade will be cancelled and replaced with a less comprehensive 2+ plan. Integration of new MBDA MHT (High Tier Missile) air-to-ground and Mistral 3 air-to-air weapons will be abandoned under the reworked initiative with the in production Brimstone air-to-ground missile to be favored instead, according to FOB.
Those changes have not been confirmed by the French Ministry of Armed Forces. It declined to clarify to Breaking Defense whether “new standard” refers to a smaller or less comprehensive upgrade compared to that originally planned under the MkIII effort. MBDA declined to comment.
French President Emmanuel Macron announced in January that the new LPM for 2024-2030, a multi-annual national defense expenditure settlement, would increase spending by 40 percent to €413 billion ($447 billion), but lawmakers are still to ratify acquisition proposals tied to it. The French Defense Committee is expected to review the LPM before the summer, according to a National Assembly spokesperson.
The MkIII rotary project was launched by European defense agency OCCAR (Organisation Conjointe de Coopération en matière d’Armement) on behalf of France and Spain in March 2022 to enhance the firepower, connectivity and target detection capabilities of the aircraft, but the absence of Germany amid interest from Berlin in Boeing’s AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter has complicated matters considerably.
Lead manufacturer Airbus offered Germany an extended deadline to join the program, but that lapsed in Q4 2022 without any change.
“The LPM is in preparation in France and is requesting to adapt the model and transform the French Armed forces to win the battle of the future,” said an Airbus spokesperson in a statement to Breaking Defense. “We can confirm that the Tiger programme is part of the current discussions between the French State and the industry as the need is clearly to keep the helicopter flying until 2045+. Airbus remains fully committed and engaged on the development of this Tiger upgrade and is ready to work on possible ways of optimizing its costs.”
As Breaking Defense previously reported, France originally committed to upgrading 42 Tiger helicopters from a fleet of 67, at a cost of €2.8 billion ($3.06 billion) and might have explored approving additional funding to upgrade the remaining 25 aircraft had Germany joined the program, lowering costs for other partners in the process.
Spain also plans on upgrading 18 of its 24 Tigers for €1.18 billion ($1.29 billion), but should France introduce a new approach under the so called Mk 2+ redesign, Madrid could also have a rethink.
Upon launch of the program, Airbus said it was targeting a first MkIII prototype flight in 2025 with a first delivery to France to take place in 2029, ahead of a first Spanish delivery in 2030.
The Tiger helicopter is designed for reconnaissance missions, supporting ground troops and striking ground targets, with industry receiving operational feedback from French troops previously deployed in Afghanistan, Libya and the Sahel to inform MkIII subsystem changes, according to company literature from Thales, a subcontractor on the program.
Outside of new armaments, additional features of the upgraded aircraft could include Safran’s Euroflir 510 electro-optical sight, the new Thales TopOwl helmet mounted digital display and FlytX avionics system, alongside integration of the French manufacturer’s Combat Airborne Threat Surveyor (CATS-150) self-protection system.
Christina MacKenzie contributed to this report from Paris.
France to reassess what it wants in a ‘new standard’ Tiger attack helicopter
The French Ministry of Defense declined to tell Breaking Defense whether the "new standard" referred to a full MkIII upgrade or a less ambitious plan.
By TIM MARTINon March 21, 2023 at 8:51 AMThe Tiger attack helicopter program has been unsettled by Germany refusing to join a MkIII midlife upgrade effort with France and Spain. (French Army on Twitter)BELFAST — The French government, military and industry plan to reassess the capabilities they want in an upgrade to the Tiger attack helicopter, including a key analysis of drone compatibility, potentially putting in question the planned, full MkIII upgrade.
Asked specifically about whether the MkIII mid-life upgrade would be funded, a French military spokesperson only confirmed that a “new Tiger standard is not put into question in the upcoming Loi de programmation militaire (LPM) [military programming law].”
“During his hearing in the Senate on February 28, Sébastien Lecornu, Minister for the Armed Forces, affirmed that the Tiger helicopter will continue to fly until 2042-2045,” said the French Ministry of Armed Forces spokesperson. “The Minister nevertheless mandated the armed forces and the DGA [Directorate of General Armaments], in conjunction with manufacturers, to evolve standards envisaged to meet needs identified, in terms of technological developments (in particular reflect on compatibility with drones) and economic sustainability, to ensure export success.”
The statement comes after Force Operations Blog (FOB), a specialist French Army website, reported earlier this month that an unnamed military source said the Tiger MkIII mid-life upgrade will be cancelled and replaced with a less comprehensive 2+ plan. Integration of new MBDA MHT (High Tier Missile) air-to-ground and Mistral 3 air-to-air weapons will be abandoned under the reworked initiative with the in production Brimstone air-to-ground missile to be favored instead, according to FOB.
Those changes have not been confirmed by the French Ministry of Armed Forces. It declined to clarify to Breaking Defense whether “new standard” refers to a smaller or less comprehensive upgrade compared to that originally planned under the MkIII effort. MBDA declined to comment.
French President Emmanuel Macron announced in January that the new LPM for 2024-2030, a multi-annual national defense expenditure settlement, would increase spending by 40 percent to €413 billion ($447 billion), but lawmakers are still to ratify acquisition proposals tied to it. The French Defense Committee is expected to review the LPM before the summer, according to a National Assembly spokesperson.
The MkIII rotary project was launched by European defense agency OCCAR (Organisation Conjointe de Coopération en matière d’Armement) on behalf of France and Spain in March 2022 to enhance the firepower, connectivity and target detection capabilities of the aircraft, but the absence of Germany amid interest from Berlin in Boeing’s AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopter has complicated matters considerably.
Lead manufacturer Airbus offered Germany an extended deadline to join the program, but that lapsed in Q4 2022 without any change.
“The LPM is in preparation in France and is requesting to adapt the model and transform the French Armed forces to win the battle of the future,” said an Airbus spokesperson in a statement to Breaking Defense. “We can confirm that the Tiger programme is part of the current discussions between the French State and the industry as the need is clearly to keep the helicopter flying until 2045+. Airbus remains fully committed and engaged on the development of this Tiger upgrade and is ready to work on possible ways of optimizing its costs.”
As Breaking Defense previously reported, France originally committed to upgrading 42 Tiger helicopters from a fleet of 67, at a cost of €2.8 billion ($3.06 billion) and might have explored approving additional funding to upgrade the remaining 25 aircraft had Germany joined the program, lowering costs for other partners in the process.
Spain also plans on upgrading 18 of its 24 Tigers for €1.18 billion ($1.29 billion), but should France introduce a new approach under the so called Mk 2+ redesign, Madrid could also have a rethink.
Upon launch of the program, Airbus said it was targeting a first MkIII prototype flight in 2025 with a first delivery to France to take place in 2029, ahead of a first Spanish delivery in 2030.
The Tiger helicopter is designed for reconnaissance missions, supporting ground troops and striking ground targets, with industry receiving operational feedback from French troops previously deployed in Afghanistan, Libya and the Sahel to inform MkIII subsystem changes, according to company literature from Thales, a subcontractor on the program.
Outside of new armaments, additional features of the upgraded aircraft could include Safran’s Euroflir 510 electro-optical sight, the new Thales TopOwl helmet mounted digital display and FlytX avionics system, alongside integration of the French manufacturer’s Combat Airborne Threat Surveyor (CATS-150) self-protection system.
Christina MacKenzie contributed to this report from Paris.
